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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

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236 posts found
  GamerUntouch

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 491

7/21/12 1:14:11 PM#41
Originally posted by Torgrim

I'm confuced, is this about item shop or someone who is rich ingame?

I think he's complaining about repair costs because they can rack up quick in WvWvW.

  Poison_Adele

Novice Member

Joined: 9/01/08
Posts: 293

7/21/12 1:15:44 PM#42
  1. There's plenty of money-making opportunities in WvW, you need to stop and actually mine/gather in order to get them.
  2. Money does absolutely nothing without Supply, which requires a good team and strategy to obtain.
  3. The game was designed so that teams could mine/gather the money they needed to get siege equipment.
All of those upgrades? Need supply to happen. The only reason they were possible was because prior to this guy's arrival, your team had already captured a lot of castles and had built up the supply needed to support such things.

  heatzz

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 6

7/21/12 1:17:23 PM#43

Watch this guys enuff said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx7o7CRoDXc&feature=related

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2668

7/21/12 1:18:42 PM#44
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by hikaru77

People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

how it effects the game is the same whether its legit or not

It isn't the same - gold sellers ruin the game with bots and inflation from people that only want money from the game.

In GW2 we have an exchange of currencies "In game gold (in game time) <--------> Gems (time spent in work)" that gives something to players interested in the game.

Additionally the games has in-game built mechanisms like supply, max level gear for everyone in pvp, or downleveling and karma for PvE that limits the problems

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/21/12 1:22:02 PM#45
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

how it effects the game is the same whether its legit or not

It isn't the same - gold sellers ruin the game with bots and inflation from people that only want money from the game.

In GW2 we have an exchange of currencies "In game gold (in game time) <--------> Gems (time spent in work)" that gives something to players interested in the game.

Additionally the games has in-game built mechanisms like supply that limits the problems.

 

yea I edited that post already heh

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/21/12 1:23:37 PM#46
Originally posted by heatzz

Watch this guys enuff said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx7o7CRoDXc&feature=related

nice video

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  hikaru77

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 1006

7/21/12 1:31:04 PM#47
Originally posted by eyelolled
[mod edit]

 

 

Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

  Br3akingDawn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/01/11
Posts: 1326

7/21/12 1:32:09 PM#48

simply, you are not ready.

  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

7/21/12 1:39:11 PM#49
Originally posted by hikaru77 

Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily craft level appropriate gear with stats tailored to my build and playstyle equal to or better than anything that drops.

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily acquire enough Karma to pick up gear with great stats from vendors.

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where in Structured PvP ALL max level Traits, Skills, and Gear is unlocked and available.

It's fine for you to hate the game/CS - just don't lie about how the game works.

  sapheroith

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/12
Posts: 122

7/21/12 1:41:33 PM#50
Originally posted by Stx11
Originally posted by hikaru77 

Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily craft level appropriate gear with stats tailored to my build and playstyle equal to or better than anything that drops.

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily acquire enough Karma to pick up gear with great stats from vendors.

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where in Structured PvP ALL max level Traits, Skills, and Gear is unlocked and available.

It's fine for you to hate the game/CS - just don't lie about how the game works.

He is just trolling. Dont bother answer.

WOW: The Most Well Known Non-Free Non-Browser Client-Based 3D Fantasy MMORPG In Some Parts of the World.

  User Deleted
7/21/12 1:42:04 PM#51
Originally posted by Shroom_Mage

 


Originally posted by Dalgor
Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win, cause people are going to think this has to do with RL cash pay to win, which is doesnt.

 

If people have progressed further and accumulated more gold in game, naturally they are going to have a ass ton of more resources to draw from then you, its the penalty for joining at a low level, the flip side is you can still pvp, have fun, gain xp, and level in the pvp zones, but you are at a disadvantage, you should have expected it.

All I hear is an awesome story where a small army was able to hold their own or prevail over a larger army because of better resources, sounds fair to me.


 

Did you miss the part where you can buy gold with gems? It's obvious the guy with all that gold didn't farm hundreds of it in a couple hours unless he found some sort of exploit.

 

 

i am getting a feeling this game will be ruined just like diablo 3 type of thingy . if it survives i will buy the game after seeing the results of 6 months

 

  User Deleted
7/21/12 1:43:32 PM#52
Originally posted by DanitaKusor

After spending a good portion of today in WvW I finally understand why people are saying this game is Play-to-win and I am starting to agree with that assertion.

My experience in WvW was limited money gain vs. high repair costs every time I died which was leaving most of the team naked because they couldn't afford to repair their armour when we were originally matched against a full server and got slaughtered every time we stepped outside the door.

Later after the matchups changed we were left with a better situtation and got some more people on the server after people were transferring off full servers because they couldn't get into WvW (my server never had a queue for any of the zones).  So we managed to take some castles and I made a bit of money from those captures, but still certainly not enough to buy siege weapons of any kind.  I had about 12silver when I finished, but needed to spend 10s of that on the manual to unlock traits, so a 2s profit from a full day of WvW.

Anyway, I went off to dinner and when I came back I found a new player had arrived in the zone on our side.  He had bought the commander title (now 100g), and had started laying out siege engines like candy with each battle, including golems which are 1g a piece.  He paid for every keep upgrade at our two main keeps leading up to Stonemist and put up arrow carts, cannons, mortars, and a trebuchet as defensive weapons. on the walls.

The end result was that although we were heavily outnumbered still vs. the blue server which was another full server we were able to smash through the walls of Stonemist several times and nearly took it.  When we were eventually driven back, the enemy players came into range out of newly fortified keeps and were slaughtered by the dozens and forced to retreat, even though they had larger numbers.  The fight was still going on when I logged off so I'm not sure where it will end.

The end result was through the actions of one player who was buying gems and changed them into gold (current rate is 50silver per 100gems), my server was able to move into second place and threaten the main keep in the Eternal Battlegrounds.

Now perhaps by the time people reach 80 we will be earning enough coin that this won't be an issue, but certainly as it stands in the beta at the moment the person willing to spend RL money on gems can make a huge difference to a server.  It's so much easier when every time you are assaulting a keep someone turns up with 2 rams and a ballista or a golem instead of trying to take the door down by hand.

I hadn't spent much time in WvW in previous beta but seeing this in action today it was a real eye opener. 


i will take the word of OP very seriously as she is of mature age as well she is elite member here .thirdly she has given very valid arguments .

  Dakirn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/04
Posts: 373

7/21/12 1:46:11 PM#53
Originally posted by Stx11
Originally posted by Dakirn

In a game that auto-levels you to 80 in WvW and provides EVERYTHING for free fully maxed-out in sPvP how are those potions "pay to win?" People are even down-leveled to match early content so being a higher level than everybody else doesn't really provide any "advantage" and definitely not any sustainable ones.

I have no issue with people not liking the game. Sheer stupidity or misrepresentation of how the game works? Prepare to be flamed...

You realize that there is an entire PvE part of the game too, right?  Like.. 79 levels worth?  It's unbalancing there.

 

Whether you care about PvE or not that is where a majority of people will be making the most money to buy those Siege Weapons if they don't use the Gem exchange.  Someone who makes a vast majority more in money over you will be purchasing things easier and quicker.

 

Obviously if he was dropping Siege items like candy Blueprints and Supplies weren't an issue.  No, I don't know how to make them but it doesn't negate the fact that gold is used in the process too.

First point which you haven't answered - HOW IS IT AN ADVANTAGE IN COOPERATIVE PVE??? How is it "unbalancing" like you said? I can craft excellent gear quite easily as I level up with Stats that are equal to or better than drops. I can participate in Dynamic Events and earn all the Karma I need for quality gear. I am not IN ANY WAY dependent on drops in this game for quality gear.

Second point your last sentence sums things up perfectly - you don't know how the game works but you are proclaiming "PAY TO WIN11!!1!!" Keeps and Depots have limited Supply and while there were enough people to build the Blueprints he initially dropped it is not sustainable. If the other side knows at all what they are doing Supply will be cut off and their own Siege Weapons will be brought to bear.

If you are going to criticize something based on the mechanics LEARN those mechanics before you do so. 

Can you tone it down a notch instead of attacking me? Geeze.  You act like I'm some rabit anti-GW2 person trying to destroy the game.  I actually own the game (have since the minutes after it went on sale), plan to play it and made it to 27 before the last wipe.

 

No, I didn't make Siege weapons in the previous phases.  I barely PvP'd at all I was going from the other information in the thread and what I've read.  I'm sorry that I offended you for not knowing every single detail about WvWvW.

 

You mentioned crafting and Karma gear.  The crafting that I did was a major time sink, have you tried crafting armor for your own level after level 10?  You'll need to farm for days (possibly weeks) to get the mats just to skill up.

 

Ok, that's doable.  You'll be able to craft a good item right?  Well.. it'll have good stats, but it won't have those passive magical effects that I was talking about unless you spend even more time and mats experimenting and somehow finding Green/Blue recipes (which I never did).  To fill up stats for that crafted armor you'll want those Gem inserts dropped from crafting nodes (which benefit from +50% magical find pots too, btw).  But that won't solve the problem of getting the recipe to make the item in the first place or finding the mats to make it.

 

Or you could buy some magic find potions and kill things and find that magical gear in a fraction of the time.

 

Karma gear vendors don't have the gear that I'm talking about.  They don't sell Blue/Green armor with the good passive effects.  Yes there are some Karma vendors that sell GOOD white quality items but I didn't see any that sold the Green or Blue quality armor with has slots for those Passive effects (I'm not talking STATS, I'm talking EFFECTS).  At least I didn't see any in the first 27 levels of zones I did up to last beta weekend.

 

Unless you raised your crafting high enough to make Green and Blue quality armor/weapons (which I didn't see as a possibility during the last beta weekends) please tell me how crafted gear is comparible to those magical gear drops?

 

I want to know.  I want to stop worrying about it because you state that it'll be just as easy to make it as get a drop but in my experience it was nowhere close to the same.

 

It's unbalancing because you can get more and more varied magical drops by killing stuff than you'll ever be able to make with crafting because of those +50% potions.  The more magical drops, the more you sell on the AH, the more money you make... the more money you have to spend to buy all those crafting mats to level your crafting that other people won't be able to afford.

  Derpybird

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/12
Posts: 1006

7/21/12 1:54:13 PM#54
Originally posted by hikaru77

Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2.

LOL

"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  Magnnarot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/28/08
Posts: 50

7/21/12 1:56:19 PM#55
Originally posted by DanitaKusor

After spending a good portion of today in WvW I finally understand why people are saying this game is Play-to-win and I am starting to agree with that assertion.

My experience in WvW was limited money gain vs. high repair costs every time I died which was leaving most of the team naked because they couldn't afford to repair their armour when we were originally matched against a full server and got slaughtered every time we stepped outside the door.

Later after the matchups changed we were left with a better situtation and got some more people on the server after people were transferring off full servers because they couldn't get into WvW (my server never had a queue for any of the zones).  So we managed to take some castles and I made a bit of money from those captures, but still certainly not enough to buy siege weapons of any kind.  I had about 12silver when I finished, but needed to spend 10s of that on the manual to unlock traits, so a 2s profit from a full day of WvW.

Anyway, I went off to dinner and when I came back I found a new player had arrived in the zone on our side.  He had bought the commander title (now 100g), and had started laying out siege engines like candy with each battle, including golems which are 1g a piece.  He paid for every keep upgrade at our two main keeps leading up to Stonemist and put up arrow carts, cannons, mortars, and a trebuchet as defensive weapons. on the walls.

The end result was that although we were heavily outnumbered still vs. the blue server which was another full server we were able to smash through the walls of Stonemist several times and nearly took it.  When we were eventually driven back, the enemy players came into range out of newly fortified keeps and were slaughtered by the dozens and forced to retreat, even though they had larger numbers.  The fight was still going on when I logged off so I'm not sure where it will end.

The end result was through the actions of one player who was buying gems and changed them into gold (current rate is 50silver per 100gems), my server was able to move into second place and threaten the main keep in the Eternal Battlegrounds.

Now perhaps by the time people reach 80 we will be earning enough coin that this won't be an issue, but certainly as it stands in the beta at the moment the person willing to spend RL money on gems can make a huge difference to a server.  It's so much easier when every time you are assaulting a keep someone turns up with 2 rams and a ballista or a golem instead of trying to take the door down by hand.

I hadn't spent much time in WvW in previous beta but seeing this in action today it was a real eye opener. 

I got to lvl 37 last beta, by then I had managed to accumulate several blueprints (specially catapults, flaming rams and ballistae) and still had an extra 3 gold.

That plus the fact that the wvw dungeon drops blueprints (gave me a golem even) makes it pretty irrelevant to even get the golem blueprint with rmt, unless you think about buying gems and trade for gold during the first week or so, before people hit the cap.

  Dakirn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/04
Posts: 373

7/21/12 1:57:38 PM#56
Originally posted by Stx11
Originally posted by hikaru77 

Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily craft level appropriate gear with stats tailored to my build and playstyle equal to or better than anything that drops.

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where I can easily acquire enough Karma to pick up gear with great stats from vendors.

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where in Structured PvP ALL max level Traits, Skills, and Gear is unlocked and available.

It's fine for you to hate the game/CS - just don't lie about how the game works.

His post aside.. it's not "easy" to craft level appropriate gear.  It takes a LOT of time farming mats to skill up and even more time farming to make the materials.  Have you tried crafting armor?  I mentioned this in another post.  Just because you CAN craft doesn't make it "easy."

 

And the Karma gear isn't as good as the dropped gear later on.. plus the Karma gear is limited because there are only a few select  pieces for sale in each area and may not cover all of your equipment.

 

 

You only get Max traits/skills for Battlegrounds.  In WvWvW you have to gain XP to unlock Traits, skills and weapon attacks (unless they changed that this build)

  lathaan

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/04
Posts: 485

7/21/12 1:59:19 PM#57
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by Naevius

Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

Lawl... how the fanbois will defend there precious. No pay to win is when items are signifacantly easier to obtain or do through the cash shop. This is how  its been since the beginning, you can't twist definitions just to fit your game sorry.

thats the 'pay' part. you obviously understood that. now explain the 'win' part pls.

  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

7/21/12 2:00:25 PM#58
Originally posted by Dakirn
Can you tone it down a notch instead of attacking me? Geeze.  You act like I'm some rabit anti-GW2 person trying to destroy the game.  I actually own the game (have since the minutes after it went on sale), plan to play it and made it to 27 before the last wipe.

 

No, I didn't make Siege weapons in the previous phases.  I barely PvP'd at all I was going from the other information in the thread and what I've read.  I'm sorry that I offended you for not knowing every single detail about WvWvW.

 

You mentioned crafting and Karma gear.  The crafting that I did was a major time sink, have you tried crafting armor for your own level after level 10?  You'll need to farm for days (possibly weeks) to get the mats just to skill up.

 

Ok, that's doable.  You'll be able to craft a good item right?  Well.. it'll have good stats, but it won't have those passive magical effects that I was talking about unless you spend even more time and mats experimenting and somehow finding Green/Blue recipes (which I never did).  To fill up stats for that crafted armor you'll want those Gem inserts dropped from crafting nodes (which benefit from +50% magical find pots too, btw).  But that won't solve the problem of getting the recipe to make the item in the first place or finding the mats to make it.

 

Or you could buy some magic find potions and kill things and find that magical gear in a fraction of the time.

 

Karma gear vendors don't have the gear that I'm talking about.  They don't sell Blue/Green armor with the good passive effects.  Yes there are some Karma vendors that sell GOOD white quality items but I didn't see any that sold the Green or Blue quality armor with has slots for those Passive effects (I'm not talking STATS, I'm talking EFFECTS).  At least I didn't see any in the first 27 levels of zones I did up to last beta weekend.

 

Unless you raised your crafting high enough to make Green and Blue quality armor/weapons (which I didn't see as a possibility during the last beta weekends) please tell me how crafted gear is comparible to those magical gear drops?

 

I want to know.  I want to stop worrying about it because you state that it'll be just as easy to make it as get a drop but in my experience it was nowhere close to the same.

 

It's unbalancing because you can get more and more varied magical drops by killing stuff than you'll ever be able to make with crafting because of those +50% potions.  The more magical drops, the more you sell on the AH, the more money you make... the more money you have to spend to buy all those crafting mats to level your crafting that other people won't be able to afford.

Sorry there are a fair number of Troll Posters on this forums who operate from an agenda and I hate the deliberate spread of mis-information.

To help you out - the key to Crafting is in fact the discovery process. It's a pretty simple and logical progression and it gives a LOT of Crafting XP (greatly saving you mats/resources). Learning how it works will save you an incredible amount of time, mats, gold, and effort while Crafting.

It is true you still need to Gather to get the Augments for the Passives, but I've noticed a *huge* boost in their drop rate this BWE while gathering.

But one thing I'd still like to point out to you - while Stats are nice on Gear, your Build and the skill with which you play it matter far more than in many other Themepark MMOs. I compared the damage and stats on Level 80 Karma Items to starting weapons and it is actually a very shallow progression. Gear still plays a part - it is not in any way insignificant, but it's also not "all important" like certain other games.

  Magnnarot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/28/08
Posts: 50

7/21/12 2:01:59 PM#59

GW2 isn't pay to win, its pay for CONVENIENCE.

  JaggaSpikes

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 408

7/21/12 2:03:52 PM#60
Originally posted by Dakirn
Originally posted by Stx11

...

It's not "Pay To Win" in a game where in Structured PvP ALL max level Traits, Skills, and Gear is unlocked and available.

...

...

You only get Max traits/skills for Battlegrounds.  In WvWvW you have to gain XP to unlock Traits, skills and weapon attacks (unless they changed that this build)

that's what he said. battlegrounds = structured pvp

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