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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Ranged OP? Easy fix.

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32 posts found
  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

 
OP  7/20/12 10:27:28 PM#1

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  That's a real problem for folks who like to get up close and personal when fighting.

I think the problem with a lot of MMO PVP is that the speed and amount of ranged damage that can be done is monsterous. Arrows and spells fly without much discrimination. 

Games don't require you to buy arrows very often or carry a quiver any more. Regents and casting times are a thing of the past because everyone wanted combat at a fast pace.

I think developers could offer a trade off. Bigger boom takes more time to aim or chant a n arrow or a spell. RIFT had a real problem with this and I think GW2 feels the pinch as well. It's fun, but really ranged in the whole genre needs a nerf.

You don't have to agree with me, but I think it'd be more fun for all involved if there was more thinking to be done. War being volley, volley, charge, fight. Rather than everyone kiting in pve, pvp, pv all.

a yo ho ho

  Jemcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1380

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

7/21/12 12:07:49 AM#2

PvP ruined every game I liked.  Gimp my ranger.  Gimp my ranger.  I don't even PvP!!!!!

Next time if they ask your name tell them "Your Overlord." There's nothing more satisfying than an Arby's employee repeatedly yelling over the munching masses, "Your Overlord's classic cheddar is up!!!"

  lennpell

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 111

7/21/12 12:20:52 AM#3

The game isn't designed well if they don't give proper means for the melee to get into direct contact with the ranged, and it also isn't designed well if they don't give the ranged the means to escape. It should be skill and quickness reliant, I honestly feel WoW did a good job with the balancing in the sense of classes being able to engage/disengage, maybe some numbers are off, but overall they did a good job, not every game you can say that for. So in essence, I feel it shouldn't be a variable of the range having too much of an advantage over melee in power or ability, but melee having too much of a disadvantage over ranged in the sense of gap closing, or available long range CC.

  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

 
OP  7/21/12 12:22:50 AM#4
Originally posted by Jemcrystal

PvP ruined every game I liked.  Gimp my ranger.  Gimp my ranger.  I don't even PvP!!!!!

So you're saying rangers should shoot arrows faster than someone can stab with a knife and have unlimited ammo to be fun?

a yo ho ho

  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

7/21/12 12:44:05 AM#5
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  That's a real problem for folks who like to get up close and personal when fighting.

I think the problem with a lot of MMO PVP is that the speed and amount of ranged damage that can be done is monsterous. Arrows and spells fly without much discrimination. 

Games don't require you to buy arrows very often or carry a quiver any more. Regents and casting times are a thing of the past because everyone wanted combat at a fast pace.

I think developers could offer a trade off. Bigger boom takes more time to aim or chant a n arrow or a spell. RIFT had a real problem with this and I think GW2 feels the pinch as well. It's fun, but really ranged in the whole genre needs a nerf.

You don't have to agree with me, but I think it'd be more fun for all involved if there was more thinking to be done. War being volley, volley, charge, fight. Rather than everyone kiting in pve, pvp, pv all.

Alternatively <- My incoherant blog about something closely related.

 

Anwhow 3-4th, You've seen the WOW Warrior at work? That class is a problem, it can waste any class on a bad day. Or have they fixed rogue stunlock? I think, in general, combat in all MMO's is illogical and needs to be fixed. Ranged and melee alike are completely broken in one way or another.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/21/12 1:20:14 AM#6
Originally posted by lennpell

The game isn't designed well if they don't give proper means for the melee to get into direct contact with the ranged, and it also isn't designed well if they don't give the ranged the means to escape. It should be skill and quickness reliant, I honestly feel WoW did a good job with the balancing in the sense of classes being able to engage/disengage, maybe some numbers are off, but overall they did a good job, not every game you can say that for. So in essence, I feel it shouldn't be a variable of the range having too much of an advantage over melee in power or ability, but melee having too much of a disadvantage over ranged in the sense of gap closing, or available long range CC.

Yes, exactly this.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

7/21/12 1:28:26 AM#7

It really is a balancing thing. But sure, limiting number of arrows a player can carry is one way to balance things. Another is having a miss percentage based on how far away the oponent is.

The most fun would be to have 17th century pistols and muskets with huge damage but realistic loading time, that would really encourage people to shoot once and switch to blade afterwards.

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

7/21/12 1:39:19 AM#8
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  

This is inaccurate except in very specific circumstances.

 

Otherwise, I agree with some of the spirit of the post. Melee needs an advantage to compensate for its smaller engagement envelope compared to ranged combatants.

 

I think that most games, that I have played at least, have made an effort to provide this advantage.

 

 

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

7/21/12 2:26:51 AM#9
Originally posted by Ashen_X
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  

This is inaccurate except in very specific circumstances.

 

Otherwise, I agree with some of the spirit of the post. Melee needs an advantage to compensate for its smaller engagement envelope compared to ranged combatants.

 

I think that most games, that I have played at least, have made an effort to provide this advantage.

 

 

He has a point when it comes to modern warfare. According to Jeremy Scahill the US is doing very well in a lot of their smaller wars simply because of the UCAV.

 

EDIT: I can't remember which game gives you the UCAV as a boon, but it was broken in there too. You could just win round after round with it.

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

7/21/12 2:55:00 AM#10
Originally posted by Trionicus
Originally posted by Ashen_X
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  

This is inaccurate except in very specific circumstances.

 

Otherwise, I agree with some of the spirit of the post. Melee needs an advantage to compensate for its smaller engagement envelope compared to ranged combatants.

 

I think that most games, that I have played at least, have made an effort to provide this advantage.

 

 

He has a point when it comes to modern warfare. According to Jeremy Scahill the US is doing very well in a lot of their smaller wars simply because of the UCAV.

 

EDIT: I can't remember which game gives you the UCAV as a boon, but it was broken in there too. You could just win round after round with it.

The UCAV is an aircraft armed with, primarily, short range attack systems. It is an example of a short ranged attack system, in some cases, replacing longer ranged systems, much like the M4 replacing the M16.

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  neosapience

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/04
Posts: 166

7/21/12 3:19:49 AM#11

All things being equal, ranged will always have a tactical advantage. Let me break it down.

Ranged classes can always strike first (unless the melee class uses stealth, though many games do not have such classes).

Ranged classes can focus fire. Melee classes can almost never focus fire, as rushing in together and being bunched up presets several problems for them (AoE effects being one).

Ranged classes can practically ignore movement penalty effects. Melee classes can be rendered almost completely impotent by simply slowing their movement rate, even by a small amount.

Ranged classes can take advantage of terrain. Melee classes are almost utterly powerless in the face of a small wall, tower or sometimes even just a rock.

 

I have seen many game developers try to balance these, and other such issues, without success. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it isn't anywhere near as easy as you want it to be.

  SoulSurfer

Novice Member

Joined: 6/19/08
Posts: 1255

7/21/12 4:09:45 AM#12

Give melees better block, dodge, parry, and dmg mitigation with armor stats/skills/traits.... whatever

Give magical resistance tanks/builds  viable resist rates or magic mitigation etc.... 

Bring back longer cast times, don't give clothies a ton of invisible shields that are immune to melee dmg, and the arrow suggestions others have stated in this thread sound good too.

It's a balancing issue for sure.  Hopefully someone can find the magic formula!

 

  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

7/21/12 4:24:53 AM#13
Originally posted by Ashen_X
Originally posted by Trionicus
Originally posted by Ashen_X
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  

This is inaccurate except in very specific circumstances.

 

Otherwise, I agree with some of the spirit of the post. Melee needs an advantage to compensate for its smaller engagement envelope compared to ranged combatants.

 

I think that most games, that I have played at least, have made an effort to provide this advantage.

 

 

He has a point when it comes to modern warfare. According to Jeremy Scahill the US is doing very well in a lot of their smaller wars simply because of the UCAV.

 

EDIT: I can't remember which game gives you the UCAV as a boon, but it was broken in there too. You could just win round after round with it.

The UCAV is an aircraft armed with, primarily, short range attack systems. It is an example of a short ranged attack system, in some cases, replacing longer ranged systems, much like the M4 replacing the M16.

It's still armed with Hellfire missiles, pretty far range if dealing with ground troops. It's no ballistic missile but still, what sniper can guarantee an 8km shot?

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5728

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/21/12 5:46:44 AM#14

Number of players in the engagement also affects melee viability. Large engagements vs. small engagements.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  User Deleted
7/21/12 5:52:47 AM#15
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  That's a real problem for folks who like to get up close and personal when fighting.

I think the problem with a lot of MMO PVP is that the speed and amount of ranged damage that can be done is monsterous. Arrows and spells fly without much discrimination. 

Games don't require you to buy arrows very often or carry a quiver any more. Regents and casting times are a thing of the past because everyone wanted combat at a fast pace.

I think developers could offer a trade off. Bigger boom takes more time to aim or chant a n arrow or a spell. RIFT had a real problem with this and I think GW2 feels the pinch as well. It's fun, but really ranged in the whole genre needs a nerf.

You don't have to agree with me, but I think it'd be more fun for all involved if there was more thinking to be done. War being volley, volley, charge, fight. Rather than everyone kiting in pve, pvp, pv all.

Make people have to use arrows, make people have to actually aim, make distance/gravity count. You have arrows, regents and casting times in Darkfall and combat is anything but slow.

 

The trouble with ranged combat in mmo pvp is that you can tab target people. Make people actually aim.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5728

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/21/12 5:58:03 AM#16
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  That's a real problem for folks who like to get up close and personal when fighting.

I think the problem with a lot of MMO PVP is that the speed and amount of ranged damage that can be done is monsterous. Arrows and spells fly without much discrimination. 

Games don't require you to buy arrows very often or carry a quiver any more. Regents and casting times are a thing of the past because everyone wanted combat at a fast pace.

I think developers could offer a trade off. Bigger boom takes more time to aim or chant a n arrow or a spell. RIFT had a real problem with this and I think GW2 feels the pinch as well. It's fun, but really ranged in the whole genre needs a nerf.

You don't have to agree with me, but I think it'd be more fun for all involved if there was more thinking to be done. War being volley, volley, charge, fight. Rather than everyone kiting in pve, pvp, pv all.

Make people have to use arrows, make people have to actually aim, make distance/gravity count. You have arrows, regents and casting times in Darkfall and combat is anything but slow.

 

The trouble with ranged combat in mmo pvp is that you can tab target people. Make people actually aim.

That does not come free. Aiming demands more from the netcode and engine not to mention it makes the game more vulnerable to lag.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  User Deleted
7/21/12 6:11:47 AM#17
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
 

Make people have to use arrows, make people have to actually aim, make distance/gravity count. You have arrows, regents and casting times in Darkfall and combat is anything but slow.

 

The trouble with ranged combat in mmo pvp is that you can tab target people. Make people actually aim.

That does not come free. Aiming demands more from the netcode and engine not to mention it makes the game more vulnerable to lag.

Not many things come for free. Doing it from the ground up for a new game is fine, adding it to an existing game would be too problematic. Also pretty sure lag is no longer a viable excuse for not doing it these days.

 

Making people actually aim makes more sense then tacking on yet more CD's, builders, snares, roots and the like whilst letting people tab target and spam.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

7/21/12 6:18:42 AM#18
Originally posted by Quirhid

The trouble with ranged combat in mmo pvp is that you can tab target people. Make people actually aim.

That does not come free. Aiming demands more from the netcode and engine not to mention it makes the game more vulnerable to lag.

 

Tell me about it.  It took months to get projectiles working smoothly, and another two weeks to get aim direction networked with enough precision to actually hit something.

 

What's cool is the ability to step out of the way of an aimed shot.  At 100 meters a laterally moving target is very tough to hit.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  shane242

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 90

:(

7/21/12 6:24:07 AM#19

i find it lame that my range class gets nerfed because the meele cry, buff the meele insted!

Dyslexia Warning: Grammar Trolls be gone

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5728

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/21/12 9:00:49 AM#20
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

That does not come free. Aiming demands more from the netcode and engine not to mention it makes the game more vulnerable to lag.

Not many things come for free. Doing it from the ground up for a new game is fine, adding it to an existing game would be too problematic. Also pretty sure lag is no longer a viable excuse for not doing it these days.

 

Making people actually aim makes more sense then tacking on yet more CD's, builders, snares, roots and the like whilst letting people tab target and spam.

Its not an excuse, the amount of traffic is so much more than with a conventional tab-targeting combat and it has to all go through the server. Any hitch and players will complain. The game could become virtually unplayable if the amount of players in one combat area rises. It may not crash but it sure wouldn't be fun to play either.

Its tricky.

Naturally one server solutions would be out of the question because it would give players closer to the server a noticable and unfair advantage.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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