When I saw the 4 man 'groups' In SWTOR, I laughed. Grouping in MMO's is getting smaller and smaller, the OP won't have long to wait for hi wish.

In the world of EzMMO's how long before one man is a group, thats what I want to know?

What I would like to see is dynamic contant that scales from very small to very large.  It's just as bad to have 7 people wanting to do a 6 man instance as it is for 4 people wanting to do that same zone and can't because they don't have enough.

Originally posted by udon

What I would like to see is dynamic contant that scales from very small to very large.  It's just as bad to have 7 people wanting to do a 6 man instance as it is for 4 people wanting to do that same zone and can't because they don't have enough.

That works very well with some stuff, GW2 is using it a lot in the open world.

It works excellent in Diablo styled half random dungeons, and even better if the dungeon is full of traps that are hard no matter how many players you are. I think traps really is the aspect of a dungeon where MMOs never gotten close to pen and paper and could improve a lot.

However, scaling does not work everywhere, it is almost impossible for the really hard stuff since 1 player more or less can change the challenge a lot one direction or the other and the time it would take to fully playtest and balance something like that is immense.

But for some parts of a game it is a nice feature. :)

I don't see a problem with wanting to complete content with less people. If OP has two friends he enjoys playing with, and only has fun playing with those people, then why would anyone want to force him to find randoms to fill out the rest of his group?

From the a few of the replies to this post, I'm starting to think some of you think MMOs should facilitate forced socialization. That isn't what the goal of an MMO should be. An MMO should be a massive, living world with many and varied options to socialize with other players, but never as a requirement to experience the game or the world.

The best suggestions I've heard in this thread are for scaling content to the group size. I believe that's the way future MMOs should be designed.

I agree content that would scale according to group size in dungeons would be great. I would be fine with it even if the larger group got increased loot chance. I want to see the content I have no need to flex an eppen by showing off raid gear. Not saying 3 people should be able to kill Onyxia for example but the normal dungeons should all scale to smaller groups. I hate raids but to me it just would feel right if 3 or 5 people could take down a dragon.

Originally posted by karat76

I agree content that would scale according to group size in dungeons would be great. I would be fine with it even if the larger group got increased loot chance. I want to see the content I have no need to flex an eppen by showing off raid gear. Not saying 3 people should be able to kill Onyxia for example but the normal dungeons should all scale to smaller groups. I hate raids but to me it just would feel right if 3 or 5 people could take down a dragon.

From the context I think you meant it wouldn't feel right, but if I'm wrong please correct me.

I think smaller groups taking out epic content feels more natural. In all the legends, in all the movies, in all the novels it's a just a few characters who end up confronting the big bad monster. It's more heroic: Beowulf, Bilbo & Gandalf, Wulfgar/Drizzt/Cattiebrie. These stories aren't as compelling or memorable if there are between 8 and 19 other characters who are just as important.

In fact I'm pretty sure the only reason that raiding with large groups ever became a thing is because when Everquest came out there was no technology to create different instances of the same monster on one server. So all of the top end raids were just heavy powered open world dungeons. If someone went in and killed the big bad, it was an empty dungeon for a week for everyone.

Now that open world raids and dungeons are thing of the past, anyone should be able to access the content at any time, and I'd like to see a return to the more classic heroic idea of the few versus the mighty.

Originally posted by Scot

When I saw the 4 man 'groups' In SWTOR, I laughed. Grouping in MMO's is getting smaller and smaller, the OP won't have long to wait for hi wish.

In the world of EzMMO's how long before one man is a group, thats what I want to know?

Are you implying group size has anything remotely to do with challenge?

I mean it indirectly does, but in the opposite way you're implying:

• In a 40-man group, my contribution isn't too important and if I'm terrible I can be carried through content (sometimes without being noticed how bad I am.)
• Solo, I'm either skilled enough or not.  Nobody's going to carry me.

Rygard49 you are right that is what I meant. Now that you mentioned Drizzit and the gang I have changed my mind. What is epci about having a army to down a dragon when it could be a small band of heroes.

Originally posted by Scot

There is a different feel to a huge group fight, I love that, but yes you individually contribute less. So I am not advocating huge groups for entry level grouping.

 

What I am getting at is the reason for making the groups smaller, is it to do with making group dynamics more flexible or is it to do with ezMMOde? I am afraid it is the later, in smaller groups spots are easier to fill. The hallmark of the way MMO’s are developing is everything must be quick, instant even, no room for patience when you are appealing to joystick gamers.

 

Group finders or dungeons which throw together people from different servers are all about the same thing, ‘I must play now!’ Developing a network of friends, working in a guild to form dungeon groups, that’s not for a console boy. And they are the demographic MMO companies are pandering too.

 I dont think thats the case really. I just think that 3 is a far more personable number. Every player counts for alot, you dont have to pick up random player x to fill the ranks, and you can make 3 man challenges that are still somwhat useful for those who duo and solo. I would call it an undiscovered sweet spot.

Obviously your game would have to be tailored to a three man experience, which would in effect make all players more well rounded, but i see that as a really good thing.

im really interested in how the lotro 3 man instances worked out? Was it just a more personable experience?

Originally posted by Scot

There is a different feel to a huge group fight, I love that, but yes you individually contribute less. So I am not advocating huge groups for entry level grouping.

 

What I am getting at is the reason for making the groups smaller, is it to do with making group dynamics more flexible or is it to do with ezMMOde? I am afraid it is the later, in smaller groups spots are easier to fill. The hallmark of the way MMO’s are developing is everything must be quick, instant even, no room for patience when you are appealing to joystick gamers.

 

Group finders or dungeons which throw together people from different servers are all about the same thing, ‘I must play now!’ Developing a network of friends, working in a guild to form dungeon groups, that’s not for a console boy. And they are the demographic MMO companies are pandering too.

Making it difficult to form or join groups achieves no desirable design goal.

• Forming a group should be ultra convenient.
• Getting to the group should be ultra convenient.
• Getting to the part where you're playing the game should be ultra convenient.

Challenge should exist in the content itself.  There's no game depth to making it inconvenient to form a group, but there's tons of potential game depth to have group PVE challenges which demand a lot of skill and teamwork.

Originally posted by Vannor

LOTRO provides some 3 man dungeons. I also found them to be far better than the others. It's common for 3 people who know each other to play a game together 'all the time'.. it's far less common that 5-8 people do.

Yep.

I agree LOTRO does(or did) 3 mans awesomely. Too bad LOTRO made itself into a MMO-Lite.

Please, stop with the "Lotro is doing 3-man instances".

They are doing them for the same reason that they went from 24-man raids to 12, for the same reason that they made the epic books soloable, same reason for nerfing all the outdoor group areas to solo or small group, same reason for nerfing certain instances to smaller groups, same reason for announcing next expansion with zero instances.

Lotro is hardly an MMO any longer but a solo-fest with a chat window attached and a cash shop.

It's a bad example. A very bad one.

Originally posted by Scot

When I saw the 4 man 'groups' In SWTOR, I laughed. Grouping in MMO's is getting smaller and smaller, the OP won't have long to wait for hi wish.

In the world of EzMMO's how long before one man is a group, thats what I want to know?

What does group size has to do with difficulty? Diablo has group size of 4 .. and Inferno is tougher than many WOW 5-man or 10 man dungeon.

Small group is good .. easier to design good content .. less wait to form a group.

I am all for 3 man group. Dungeon crawl is best done in small groups.

Originally posted by gordiflu

Please, stop with the "Lotro is doing 3-man instances".

They are doing them for the same reason that they went from 24-man raids to 12, for the same reason that they made the epic books soloable, same reason for nerfing all the outdoor group areas to solo or small group, same reason for nerfing certain instances to smaller groups, same reason for announcing next expansion with zero instances.

Lotro is hardly an MMO any longer but a solo-fest with a chat window attached and a cash shop.

It's a bad example. A very bad one.

 

No, it is a great example of the trend of MMOs ... focusing on small group co-op content.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Scot

There is a different feel to a huge group fight, I love that, but yes you individually contribute less. So I am not advocating huge groups for entry level grouping.

 

What I am getting at is the reason for making the groups smaller, is it to do with making group dynamics more flexible or is it to do with ezMMOde? I am afraid it is the later, in smaller groups spots are easier to fill. The hallmark of the way MMO’s are developing is everything must be quick, instant even, no room for patience when you are appealing to joystick gamers.

 

Group finders or dungeons which throw together people from different servers are all about the same thing, ‘I must play now!’ Developing a network of friends, working in a guild to form dungeon groups, that’s not for a console boy. And they are the demographic MMO companies are pandering too.

Making it difficult to form or join groups achieves no desirable design goal.

• Forming a group should be ultra convenient.
• Getting to the group should be ultra convenient.
• Getting to the part where you're playing the game should be ultra convenient.

Challenge should exist in the content itself.  There's no game depth to making it inconvenient to form a group, but there's tons of potential game depth to have group PVE challenges which demand a lot of skill and teamwork.

 

Those games aren't selling the game as content, they are selling people as content. That is why I don't like them

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Those games aren't selling the game as content, they are selling people as content. That is why I don't like them

What are you talking about?  PVE dungeon games overwhelmingly selling game content as content.

You can't possibly dislike TF2 or LoL on the basis that there would be no content without players, can you?  Those are games which genuinely are selling people as content (and they're great.)

In fact most here at MMORPG.com feel MMORPGs should be more player-driven, and by extension MMORPGs which "sell people as content" more.

Personally I don't think that matters as long as the gameplay itself is fun.  But forming a group isn't gameplay (there's no depth and very little decision-making); the content itself is gameplay. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Those games aren't selling the game as content, they are selling people as content. That is why I don't like them

What are you talking about?  PVE dungeon games overwhelmingly selling game content as content.

You can't possibly dislike TF2 or LoL on the basis that there would be no content without players, can you?  Those are games which genuinely are selling people as content (and they're great.)

In fact most here at MMORPG.com feel MMORPGs should be more player-driven, and by extension MMORPGs which "sell people as content" more.

Personally I don't think that matters as long as the gameplay itself is fun.  But forming a group isn't gameplay (there's no depth and very little decision-making); the content itself is gameplay. 

In games like LoL and TF2 all you need to do is to bring yourself and your skill.

In games following the EQ mold your skill is just a part, probably not even the most important part - it is all about who you know and all the things you need to do to get in that raider guild. So bring a few dozen player or you get stuck.

There is a reason you starting to see LFR tools - but that is just a quick fix for the problem.

Since for me the most important thing about a game is the game play, I always disliked the drama and in fighting in guilds and the fact i would have go through that to enjoy the game play.

I don't mind socialization in games and in game communities - I just don't want them to be mandatory and i don't want to be completely dependant