So I've come to a striking realization of late.  After playing SWTOR and TSW, 2 games that tout Story as their driving force/foundation.  Story is a problem in some and not in others.  What I mean is, I love a great story.  I love a great book or series of books.  I love a great movie or tv show.  I even love some great single player story driven games.  I'll even go so far as to say I love story in my MMO, just not when it takes over completely and the rest of the MMO is missing.  As is the case in SWTOR and TSW.

Now, I've played 2 older MMOs that incorporated story, but it was never the MAIN attraction in them and for me, they did them in excellent fashion.  FFXI and Lotro.  Both games have tons of story, but one could literally play both games and never experience the story or only experience a very small part and still have a blast in the game. 

Today, enter SWTOR and TSW and it's the exact opposite.  I get invested in the story and as I progress to the "endgame" I start to realize it's not as good or delivered as well as I like because I'm practically forced to experience on the game's terms and not my own.  Making it worse are the extreme lack of MMO staples or alternative gameplay mechanics or fun aspects of previous MMOs such as housing, fishing, cooking, alternate advancement mechanics, collections, mini games, siege warfare, meaningful open world pvp, ships on the ocean, naval battles, vast guild mechanics and perks(EQ2 is a good example of a well done guild system) and so forth.  

So, I ask, anyone else feel this way?  I'm sure some will answer with "get your story out of my MMO!"  This isn't about that.  Plenty of MMOs, most of the F2P variety who can float that boat, just float it the other way, please.  Thanks.  No, this question is for those who enjoy story but want a "world" to play in first where the Story isn't forced in a linear fashion down our throat when we don't want it while forgoing any all things that make MMORPGs what they are, or should be.

To close, after playing GW2, I think it has found the right balance between story and alternate gameplay and making a "world" first.  Granted, it's not perfect, but it's better than anything I've played since Lotro.  Maybe this is only something a small percentage of us want in our MMORPG and I'm just part of a small percentage.  I don't know.  Feel free to post your thoughts, I look forward to reading them.

To me, TSW's "story" is more like the lore of the world. it's no different from other games.

in sandboxes, players create their own stories. In themeparks, there is an end to everything. A "overall storyline" that ties the world together gives greater purpose to every action i take is good. In fact, looking at the content updates plan for the game, it's more like being inside a comic book. The story isn't personal, it's to everyone, and continues forward like that.

Social features is where the mmo part can shine alo better.

In fact, IMHO, story should be the focus of "content", like quests, dungeons, pvp, etc, ect (remember, story and lore doesn't mean solo), while social events and player driven activities don't. Again, this is in themeparks with dev driven content.

The story in TSW is awesome. I think it's that too many people play too many games.

I personally want games to end, even MMOs. I don't want to be stuck in one game for years and years.. that's when your personal life tends to take a hit or at the very least you miss all the new games coming out, both MMO and non-MMO games. I'll come back for large content additions or expansions but still don't want to find a 'home' A story lets me have that end point and move onto something else. There may be other things that keep me playing beyond the story, but that all depends on the game. I expect to play GW2 beyond he story.. mainly because of the BTP thing though.

100% agree OP.

I even posted an impression from the SWTOR beta where I said that I felt like the SP portion of the game (story) and the MMO portion of the game were constantly "stepping on each other's toes."

MMORPGs and stories can be like oil and water if they aren't handled correctly.  I mean, not many people would tolerate an SPRPG that made your grind for hours on end before getting to the next part of the story, and yet that is common place in "story-centric" MMORPGs.  Even GW2 really...

I dunno, I feel like doing a storyline in an MMORPG is like watching a movie that has an intermission every 5 minutes where you are forced to go to the lobby and find 10 popcorn kernels 20 times.

I've found it is always more interesting to forge your own story, make your own allies and enemies and mainly, choose your own, non scripted path.

Originally posted by Kinchyle

The story in TSW is awesome. I think it's that too many people play too many games.

I agree that it is great. However for me it is a double edged sword. I've finished the main story and now my desire to play the game is greatly diminished. There are a few side missions I need to finish up but then what for me. I want to keep going in the story and that is a bit of quandary.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

I've found it is always more interesting to forge your own story, make your own allies and enemies and mainly, choose your own, non scripted path.

Agree, but it only well works in a sandbox.

When the players are given the tools to shape the worlds and create their stories together, it's awesome.

When the world is already structured together and can only be sahpe by dev hands, it can't work.

Just like player driven economy, politics, territory, etc are my "sense of progression", a great story drives my actions in a themeparks alot more than lot or gear. Well, and community of course.

Originally posted by Kinchyle

The story in TSW is awesome. I think it's that too many people play too many games.

 I have to agree with you and you may put me into the play to many games segment.

Meaning I play all sorts of game genre's and if I want to story then I enjoy plenty of story driven games outside the MMORPG realm. If I want to pvp I have plenty of multiplayer games to choose from and enjoy them.

But if I am in the mood for something that has actually allot of things of other genre but goes greatly beyond that I already play in other genre's then I want my MMORPG to be a virtual world instead of a guided online combat game.

Sometimes it feels sad to me that when playing a singleplayer game that it feels more alive then many of the current crop of MMORPG's.

And agree with OP in that I am happy there are so many people enjoying current MMORPG, but like OP I feel there is room for more, there are a few MMORPG that slightly look intrested. But like everyone who is currently enjoying their MMO I too want a AAA-Tittle made by a A-company to develop a more virtual world, which I know isn't what the majority wants. But for me a virtual world has much longer staying power then the current MMO have on me.

Originally posted by Creslin321

100% agree OP.

I even posted an impression from the SWTOR beta where I said that I felt like the SP portion of the game (story) and the MMO portion of the game were constantly "stepping on each other's toes."

MMORPGs and stories can be like oil and water if they aren't handled correctly.  I mean, not many people would tolerate an SPRPG that made your grind for hours on end before getting to the next part of the story, and yet that is common place in "story-centric" MMORPGs.  Even GW2 really...

I dunno, I feel like doing a storyline in an MMORPG is like watching a movie that has an intermission every 5 minutes where you are forced to go to the lobby and find 10 popcorn kernels 20 times.

Rofl, I like that last analogy.  It's also spot on.  Delivering a good story in any medium relies on PACING.  Making one take a break from that story to do the kill X of Y stuff throws that pacing off.  I always liked how games like God of War or Prince of Persia did things, narration as you go.  Dynamic Events in GW2 are a great way of handling story, too.  I'll even go so far as to say phasing in WoW helps with story pacing, although it could be fine tuned a bit to me more multiplayer friendly.

So, have you had a chance to see FFXI or Lotro's way of handling story and if so, do you think it's done right, could be better, just as bad, or something else?

Like OP, I do not think the "story" should be where I spend the most of my time on. If I wanted a good story, I would go play single-player games, or read a book, or watch a movie. If I play a MMORPG, I want to interact with people (and not just a few, with hundreds, or what about it is "massive"?). I say this because most "story-driven" MMORPGs today are solo content. So when I hear people say "I play so and so MMORPG because it has a great story (e.g. TSW, SWTOR, etc.)", my first thought is "really? You are playing $15 a month and whatever box fee for the story?".

This is not to be confused with lore. I think good lore in an MMORPG is very important, since I RP sometimes and I know others RP more often. But the lore can come through without having solo story quests.

I don't know about many of you but I play MMORPGs to interact with many other people, be it PvP or guilds or whatever. I don't play just because there is a "good story". I have my fill of "good story" in other games that take less money.

Originally posted by Xese

Like OP, I do not think the "story" should be where I spend the most of my time on. If I wanted a good story, I would go play single-player games, or read a book, or watch a movie. If I play a MMORPG, I want to interact with people (and not just a few, with hundreds, or what about it is "massive"?). I say this because most "story-driven" MMORPGs today are solo content. So when I hear people say "I play so and so MMORPG because it has a great story (e.g. TSW, SWTOR, etc.)", my first thought is "really? You are playing $15 a month and whatever box fee for the story?".

This is not to be confused with lore. I think good lore in an MMORPG is very important, since I RP sometimes and I know others RP more often. But the lore can come through without having solo story quests.

I don't know about many of you but I play MMORPGs to interact with many other people, be it PvP or guilds or whatever. I don't play just because there is a "good story". I have my fill of "good story" in other games that take less money.

  I never consider Lore the same thing as story, personally.  Lore is just what the world we are playing in is based on.

However, you sound like you don't want ANY type of story in your MMO, but mabye you have or haven't tried a game that does it right yet?  I have, those 2 games are FFXI and Lotro.  Great stories and great gameplay, balanced perfectly, at least to me.  I prefer those games with the story over games without.  

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Creslin321

100% agree OP.

I even posted an impression from the SWTOR beta where I said that I felt like the SP portion of the game (story) and the MMO portion of the game were constantly "stepping on each other's toes."

MMORPGs and stories can be like oil and water if they aren't handled correctly.  I mean, not many people would tolerate an SPRPG that made your grind for hours on end before getting to the next part of the story, and yet that is common place in "story-centric" MMORPGs.  Even GW2 really...

I dunno, I feel like doing a storyline in an MMORPG is like watching a movie that has an intermission every 5 minutes where you are forced to go to the lobby and find 10 popcorn kernels 20 times.

Rofl, I like that last analogy.  It's also spot on.  Delivering a good story in any medium relies on PACING.  Making one take a break from that story to do the kill X of Y stuff throws that pacing off.  I always liked how games like God of War or Prince of Persia did things, narration as you go.  Dynamic Events in GW2 are a great way of handling story, too.  I'll even go so far as to say phasing in WoW helps with story pacing, although it could be fine tuned a bit to me more multiplayer friendly.

So, have you had a chance to see FFXI or Lotro's way of handling story and if so, do you think it's done right, could be better, just as bad, or something else?

 

 Hmmm...well I never played LOTRO, and I never realized that FFXI actually had a story lol :).  I thought it was all about grinding mobs in camps EQ style.  That is probably because I didn't get any higher than level 20 though.

Anyway, if you consider "story" to mean a very long, relatively scripted, sequence of events that build on each other to tell a cohesive tale...then I don't really know if there is a good way to implement it in an MMORPG, and still have the game be an MMORPG.

The problem is that you can only have so much story...it's going to end, and I can't really see it lasting more than 60 hours or so with decent pacing.  But an MMORPG is supposed to last way more than 60 hours.

So you are stuck either stretching the story out with a bunch of grinding in-between, or allowing the player to complete it when they are far from max level.  Neither of these options make much sense...

I really just feel like long scripted stories that are all about the player, are better off in SPRPGs. 

If an MMORPG is to have a story at all, then I think it should be tied to the world not the player.  Stuff should happen in the world maybe based on some repeatable overarching story, and the players can interact with it.  The story could branch based on what players do.  They may miss part of the story, but that's okay and actually realistic.  In fact, I think that missing part of the story is actually realistic, and will give players an incentive to socialize..."Hey what happened when I was gone?"

You may think that this sounds a lot like GW2's meta events...and it does.  I think that is the right track for MMORPGs.  The whole key is to STOP tying everything to the individual players, and start tying everything to the world.  Because really, an MMORPG is the story of the persistent WORLD, not any one player.  Once we realize this...it will get better.

Personally I think story and lore are key factors for an MMO, they help drive certain aspects. But how it's implemented is another thing.

To rely on them alone is a very bad move. It's like how some MMOs are now, "It's a great IP, it'll sell itself." No, NO! Bioware/EA thought that with SWTOR, look at it now. Granted it still has a good amount people still playing, but it's also bleeding. Profusely.

A good balance of story, lore and game mechanics as well as adding fun and excitement, make a good MMO. Just finding one is damn near impossible it seems these days. Makes me sad.

Agree with the OP completely. Story should be in-game to help enhance immersion and overall gaming experience. Not define it. Otherwise I'm not playing my character. I'm a chaperone to help fascilitate him/her through a predetermined outcome. 

One that stands out for me is the storyline in the Tortage area in AOC.  That was a great solo and I haven't had a game story grab me so much since Half-Life.

I think these are becoming a new SPRPG MMORPG hybrid.  I treat them as such based on their balance of SPRPG and MMORPG focus.

Will they do well short or long term?  I have no clue.  Typically SPRPGs flash for a while and then fade except for modders who rework the game keeping it fresh.  Since you cannot mod an MMORPG this won't help them.  There seems to be little alternative for the developers except to keep dumping more content in the game so it can be consumed.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

I've found it is always more interesting to forge your own story, make your own allies and enemies and mainly, choose your own, non scripted path.

Same here.  I no longer care about the story behind these games.  I've given up reading quest text and watching cut scenes and intros.  Let me make my own story.  My story will always interest me more than anything the devs can create.

I guess I'm a purist with my entertainment.  If I want a good story I'll read a book.  If I want a to watch something with a story I'll put on a movie.  If I want interaction with a fictitious world then I play video games.  Mixing them doesn't do anything for me.

However, I find that some MMOs who completely forgo any type of story narrative, or at least it's delivery, also tend to suffer.  People tell me all the time that EQ2 has a storyline.  Yet...I've never seen it nor experienced it.  Is it only delivered via lore books?  Is it only delivered via Raids? I truly never felt connected to the world in EQ2 and I think lack of story is the culprit.

 Speaking of which, I think limiting the story elements to aspects like Raids hurts as well and WoW is a good example of doing that.  I read the WoW novels and enjoy them but I'm always playing catch up to the main storyline due to them being witnessed in endgame raids, where I just don't play for varying reasons.

For me, I think FFXI did it the best.  You level up your character, do other things etc. but when you want to do the City missions you can go and do that and focus on them and they are delivered via cutscenes.  In those cutscenes, you aren't the main hero, more like a bystander who's helped a little bit.  There are main characters and side characters that interact in your cutscenes that are great to watch, if you are one who wants to.  The rewards for completing the mission lines were also very good and gave great incentive.  The story line was paced just right in that game and was always a blast to watch and complete.  Truly wish all MMOs would do something similar.  While Lotro delivers story fairly decently, sometimes it seems a bit long winded.  But then so were the original books, hehe so I guess that works.

@ OP: I think GW2 has the right idea (not forcing storyline on you, totally optional) but the story itself seems very lacking.   I've yet to find an MMO that does both perfectly.