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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I guess its obvious by now : players want complexity

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189 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17518

7/18/12 12:46:22 PM#41
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

Ok, prove it.

EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, AC = steady growth over years

SWTOR, Rift, AoC, WAR = quick cash ins that had to merge servers almost right away and cut staff.

Sorry Garvon but you don't make your point.

Each of those games that you listed as "failed" had particular reasons why they didn't take off that had nothing to do with "lack of complexity".

this is my problem with such arguments and goes back to my "bunny in the sky" statement.

As far as steady growth, last i checked, none of those games you listed had "steady growth".

Had they steady growth then wuoldn't they be up there in the millions by now?

 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4872

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/18/12 12:50:33 PM#42
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

Ok, prove it.

EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, AC = steady growth over years

SWTOR, Rift, AoC, WAR = quick cash ins that had to merge servers almost right away and cut staff.

 

And several modern games have just as many subscribers as Daoc, Uo, SWG, and AC did. 

First, that's not much of an accomplishment, considering most people were on dial up back then and those games were made by like, 30 people on no budget with no publishers.

If games that took 100MILLION to make can't even keep up with the shriveled old grandfathers of the genre then... something's wrong.

Second, I'm not talking about sub numbers, I'm talking about growth. There hasn't been a single WoW clone that has grown after launch and had to open new servers, only the opposite.

 I agree with your point about the cost of games, and have long argued that something has to give either with us the players.  The cost to make the games we demand are far far far too expensive and forces the developer to target a larger market which invariable impacts on the type of game they can make. 

However you cannot seperate the growth of games from the environment the game is in.  The amount of competition can directly influence the growth of any particular game. 

There have been several that have had to open new servers after launch, TSW just off the top of my head.  However most of them had to merge servers because, and IMO everyone knows this now, sustaining millions of subscribers is not realistic in this age of gaming.  However it is realistic to start with that.  So they need to support borth, they need to have the servers at launch but be prepared to close them later. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7307

7/18/12 12:50:54 PM#43


Originally posted by DarkPony

The problem is though, that by doing so, they leave experienced gamers out in the cold because we devoured their simplified content in a very short time and are left boring our brains out V_V


Well, that is YOUR problem only, not the game's nor developer's.

Games do not need to be complex to keep player's attention, YOU need complexity to keep YOUR attention.


Which boils down to the annoying issue that some people are not able to understand that world does not spin around their tiny self and that developers are not obliged to make the game for them, there are others with different mindsets, needs and preferences.

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

7/18/12 12:54:55 PM#44
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DarkPony

The problem is though, that by doing so, they leave experienced gamers out in the cold because we devoured their simplified content in a very short time and are left boring our brains out V_V


 

Well, that is YOUR problem only, not the game's nor developer's.

Games do not need to be complex to keep player's attention, YOU need complexity to keep YOUR attention.


Which boils down to the annoying issue that some people are not able to understand that world does not spin around their tiny self and there are others with different mindsets, needs and preferences.

I'm kind of humbled by your implied notion that I am the only experienced mmorpg gamer on this planet.

I'd love to say it's true but I think there are at least a few tens of millions more.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19391

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/18/12 12:55:44 PM#45
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by DarkPony

 

The problem is though, that by doing so, they leave experienced gamers out in the cold because we devoured their simplified content in a very short time and are left boring our brains out V_V


 

Well, that is YOUR problem only, not the game's nor developer's.

Games do not need to be complex to keep player's attention, YOU need complexity to keep YOUR attention.


Which boils down to the annoying issue that some people are not able to understand that world does not spin around their tiny self and that developers are not obliged to make the game for them, there are others with different mindsets, needs and preferences.

But why in the world would we care about them, we're in this for ourselves of course.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

7/18/12 12:56:14 PM#46
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

Ok, prove it.

EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, AC = steady growth over years

SWTOR, Rift, AoC, WAR = quick cash ins that had to merge servers almost right away and cut staff.

 

And several modern games have just as many subscribers as Daoc, Uo, SWG, and AC did. 

First, that's not much of an accomplishment, considering most people were on dial up back then and those games were made by like, 30 people on no budget with no publishers.

If games that took 100MILLION to make can't even keep up with the shriveled old grandfathers of the genre then... something's wrong.

Second, I'm not talking about sub numbers, I'm talking about growth. There hasn't been a single WoW clone that has grown after launch and had to open new servers, only the opposite.

 I agree with your point about the cost of games, and have long argued that something has to give either with us the players.  The cost to make the games we demand are far far far too expensive and forces the developer to target a larger market which invariable impacts on the type of game they can make. 

However you cannot seperate the growth of games from the environment the game is in.  The amount of competition can directly influence the growth of any particular game. 

There have been several that have had to open new servers after launch, TSW just off the top of my head.  However most of them had to merge servers because, and IMO everyone knows this now, sustaining millions of subscribers is not realistic in this age of gaming.  However it is realistic to start with that.  So they need to support borth, they need to have the servers at launch but be prepared to close them later. 

There are two simple solutions.

First, don't spend millions on marketing, shrink the budget a bit, and aim for a gradual ramp up. Let your game speak for you.

Second, build a game that encourages a steady growing community. Not a game that encourages you to blitz through solo content then leave.

Third, give people a reason to play. Does your game have any features to split it from WoW? No? Then why would people play it?

 

Modern dev studios run by publishers don't meet any of the 3.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7307

7/18/12 12:58:46 PM#47


Originally posted by DarkPony

I'm kind of humbled by your implied notion that I am the only experienced mmorpg gamer on this planet.

I'd love to say it's true but I think there are at least a few tens of millions more.


Wow...

I just point out your extreme ego centrism and how you extrapolate your personal bias on wider population and yet you go ahead and do it again :-)

Just...hilarious.

  gravesworn

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 325

7/18/12 1:01:48 PM#48
What I have witnessed through my mmorpg career is that people want complexity, yet, when sandbox style games come out that give the community the chance for complexity, they aren't embraced. The more I play Theme parks the more I enjoy sandboxes. I guess that is why I always end up back to my sandbox games after I try the new and and latest themepark. Sandboxes just have a reputation of being Hardcore, and to an extent that is true, but hardcore really can get people to work together and create complexity.
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7307

7/18/12 1:02:40 PM#49


Originally posted by Kyleran

But why in the world would we care about them, we're in this for ourselves of course.


You don't, devs do tho and complaining about it is then the egomania I talked about...

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4872

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/18/12 1:02:47 PM#50
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

Ok, prove it.

EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, AC = steady growth over years

SWTOR, Rift, AoC, WAR = quick cash ins that had to merge servers almost right away and cut staff.

 

And several modern games have just as many subscribers as Daoc, Uo, SWG, and AC did. 

First, that's not much of an accomplishment, considering most people were on dial up back then and those games were made by like, 30 people on no budget with no publishers.

If games that took 100MILLION to make can't even keep up with the shriveled old grandfathers of the genre then... something's wrong.

Second, I'm not talking about sub numbers, I'm talking about growth. There hasn't been a single WoW clone that has grown after launch and had to open new servers, only the opposite.

 I agree with your point about the cost of games, and have long argued that something has to give either with us the players.  The cost to make the games we demand are far far far too expensive and forces the developer to target a larger market which invariable impacts on the type of game they can make. 

However you cannot seperate the growth of games from the environment the game is in.  The amount of competition can directly influence the growth of any particular game. 

There have been several that have had to open new servers after launch, TSW just off the top of my head.  However most of them had to merge servers because, and IMO everyone knows this now, sustaining millions of subscribers is not realistic in this age of gaming.  However it is realistic to start with that.  So they need to support borth, they need to have the servers at launch but be prepared to close them later. 

There are two simple solutions.

First, don't spend millions on marketing, shrink the budget a bit, and aim for a gradual ramp up. Let your game speak for you.

Second, build a game that encourages a steady growing community. Not a game that encourages you to blitz through solo content then leave.

Third, give people a reason to play. Does your game have any features to split it from WoW? No? Then why would people play it?

 

Modern dev studios run by publishers don't meet any of the 3.

 Personally I think your right and have actually long argued for this.

The problem is us the gamers.  Generally we want great graphics, both character and environment (both detailed and pleasing), great animation, customization of gear and looks, flight, housing, lots of room to play, lots of options on how we play, great crafting...

All that takes an enormous amount of money.  And the devs can only build that type of game if they go after the larger market.

In order to make a smaller game they will have to do what Eve did, sacrfice some things, start with a smaller playerbase, and add those other things in later.  But in today's market will the gamer accept that.  I'm not sure anymore, there is too much competitiion.  If the game doesn't offer all the bells and whisltes, well there seems to be others that do, or will and are releasing in a few months.  

I tthink if Eve launched today in the same condition it ws in 03, it would have an even tougher time than it allready did.  The press and word of mouth would be terrible, it would be harder to recover from than Vanguard. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Castillle

Forum Bunny

Joined: 10/24/10
Posts: 2682

7/18/12 1:09:20 PM#51
This player wants the devs to play their own game.

''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
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  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

7/18/12 1:10:45 PM#52

The way I see it, a mmorpg is a game with a potential high number of playable hours/invested time in an avatar. If that has ANY value whatsoever, then it needs to be complicated to actually effect some sort of change/meaningful progress:

  • skill
  • increasing enjoyment of the game
  • increasing interaction with other players...

etc...

I think if the game is simple, it's not worth the time invested to play for so many hours; it may be worth a much shorter time invested, but that sort of defeats the purpose of a virtual world in the first place, hence maybe it would be a better choice to play another genre if that applies?

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17518

7/18/12 1:11:21 PM#53
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

 Personally I think your right and have actually long argued for this.

The problem is us the gamers.  Generally we want great graphics, both character and environment (both detailed and pleasing), great animation, customization of gear and looks, flight, housing, lots of room to play, lots of options on how we play, great crafting...

All that takes an enormous amount of money.  And the devs can only build that type of game if they go after the larger market.

In order to make a smaller game they will have to do what Eve did, sacrfice some things, start with a smaller playerbase, and add those other things in later.  But in today's market will the gamer accept that.  I'm not sure anymore, there is too much competitiion.  If the game doesn't offer all the bells and whisltes, well there seems to be others that do, or will and are releasing in a few months.  

I tthink if Eve launched today in the same condition it ws in 03, it would have an even tougher time than it allready did.  The press and word of mouth would be terrible, it would be harder to recover from than Vanguard. 

I completely agree with this.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/18/12 1:13:19 PM#54
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Lobotomist

"Players want streamlined , acessible content" game theory ... that always results in poor content ridden boredom fest like SWTOR.


This poor ridden boredom fest still have major market share with WoW in lead.


When will minority of forum posters understand the blatantly obvious truth provided by undeniable facts?

Facts sometimes get in the way of personal beliefs, therefore they are completely dismissed.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

7/18/12 1:14:05 PM#55

They just need to stop making games for specials and start making games for people again. Developers are artists in there own trade, but are losing sight of that.

Yes MMO's were works of art before the WoW generation. It was developers putting in many hours to create a living breathing vibrant world for players to immerse themselves in. Now we have quick cash grabs and instanced gear grinds. Very unmotivated works of horse ****.

We need the complexity and passion that was poured into the older generation games back. That is what made them great. The developers were proud of the world they created. I don't know how any developer could be proud of any game that has been made in the last few years. None of them are original.

 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

7/18/12 1:16:13 PM#56

I believe the OP gives the human race too much credit... but good on you for thinking better of us than we probably deserve!

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Connmacart

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

7/18/12 1:16:49 PM#57

I don't mind complexity in a game, but complexity doesn't equal difficult. That's what some people here seem to think when mentioning dumbing down and such.

Complexity would just pertain to how many different things there are to do in an MMO. The more there is to do the longer a player can be held captivated. Making things complex for the sake of making it more difficult simply will never get people to stay  except for the few sadomachisists out there.

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4859

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

 
OP  7/18/12 1:17:17 PM#58
Originally posted by dlld

I wouldn't say CoD and WoW are shining examples of complexity but they are shining examples of survivability.

I don't think your theory is very solid.

WoW and COD are exceptions to the rule. As it was proven again and again and again by anyone trying to copy them.

They are games that managed to draw in non-gamer communities. This is their sucess.

Problem is :

Non-gamers do not like games. And when they do, they tend to play only one game always. WoW.

That audience is locked.

 

Now try to make game for gamers - you are copying WOW

Big Mistake

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4859

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

 
OP  7/18/12 1:18:22 PM#59
Originally posted by Byrhofen

It does not matter if a game is complex or simple, people will still play it, and it will still be a success, as long as the game is FUN TO PLAY.

The problem's start when Devs try to define what players as a whole will actually find to be fun to play.

Ask 100 different players what they find fun, get just as many different answers.

Diablo 3 is perfect example that contradicts your theory.

Its hugely fun to play. However people are leaving because there is nothing that will hold them.

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2614

7/18/12 1:22:06 PM#60
Originally posted by DarkPony
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Games. Not all games , but multiplayer online games , must be complex in order to survive.

Ok, prove it.

The lack of truly big success stories of easy mode, hand holding mmorpgs with cookie cutter themepark formula's should be plenty of evidence I reckon. (WOW arguably falls in that category and kills my statement but then again ... it's also kind of complex. As to really do well in WOW it requires a lot of organization and / or mastery).

But personally I'd go a step further and say that any game that aims to hold a player's attention for a really long time, should be complex. Whether it is single or multiplayer, rts or rpg, etc.

Extremely popular games like WoW, Team Fortress 2, Civilization, Minecraft, Torchlight, League of Legends have plenty of longevity yet all of them are fairly accessible, but I wouldn't say simplistic.  All WoW clones are just as complex and in many ways more complex than WoW itself.  They don't succeed because they're all virtually the same game in different wrapping.  

On the other hand, many sandbox MMORPGs are the opposite of accessible, and many even punish new players.  They're too complex and nowhere near accessible enough for anyone to simply pick up and play.  On the flipside, anyone can pick up and play any of the games I listed above with minimal difficulty.  Despite their accessibility, mastering these games still requires a lot of skill and effort.

What people want isn't exactly more complexity, but more accessibility.  I shouldn't have to spend 2 hours going through tutorials before I can even begin playing the game.  I should be able to jump in, with the game being intuitive enough for me to learn as I go.

Timesinks are a major issue too.  WoW drastically reduced timesinks in MMOs, but ever since then, the genre has stagnated.  Players hit endgame then realize they have to quit because they can't dedicated 4 hours a night 5 nights a week to raiding for gear.  The next step for MMOs is going to be finding a way to open endgame content to a wider variety of players while still placating the hardcore crowd.  The answer to this is not simply to do away with raiding but to transform it or replace it.  Coming up with alternative endgame content will require some out-of-the box thinking, and I don't envy the developers who are forced to tackle that issue.

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