youre right  to a certain point  you know it i know it , but the buisnessman /developer  in general hasnt much choice

in that matter .. reliable or not ...thats  their source of getting feedback. And  a  community manager  has to evaluate

the voice of that source in order  to give a picture of  the popularity of the game in general  and what can be done to better its success

edit im done for today ...tired ...have fun discussing 

From what I experienced, and knowing the number of zones left, I'd say there's plenty of content for one run-through.  Keep in mind it was never meant to be enough to get you maxxed in all weapons in the end, or even close.  You should be able to do pretty near anything you want with 2-3 weapons, or be competent in all of them, or somewhere in between.

Replayability is close to zero, though.  Altered context for about 5-8% of the missions isn't really worth replaying another character.  Since faction doesn't really matter at all beyond that...

I've heard the arguments about there being an adequate endgame.  They all sound pretty familiar.   As in DCUO, TOR... both games which I liked but fell off a cliff despite all the investigations, holochrons, daily silliness at the end.  We'll see.

Good thing theyll come with new content each month then. And working out bugs fast :) And you know about all the events and summoned bosses? Doesnt seem so.

Originally posted by Dickweed71

youre right  to a certain point  you know it i know it , but the buisnessman /developer  in general hasnt much choice

in that matter .. reliable or not ...thats  their source of getting feedback. And  a  community manager  has to evaluate

the voice of that source in order  to give a picture of  the popularity of the game in general  and what can be done to better its success

 

edit im done for today ...tired ...have fun discussing 

Forum whining is not the only source of feedback for the dev's, thankfully.

Monitoring ingame activity is a far better source. By looking at what players are actually doing ingame, dev's get a fairly accurate view of the overall state of the game. That's why the loud yelling of a small group is often ignored, much to their frustration.

Originally posted by Dickweed71

Originally posted by grapevine

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by jdnyc

Originally posted by colddog04

PvP is the best option for me as well. I can PvP till my eyes bleed. And you're right that there haven't been a whole lot of great PvP offerings of late.

Not really the topic.  PvP is not PvE.  That's a different discussion as a whole. 

It is a topic about longevity. PvP adds longevity.

PvP is a different type of game and playstyle.  TSW has PvP and it's pretty good.  It's just not GW2 good.  The problem is what people think a MMORPG is and what they expect from it.  Honestly if every game needs to focus on PvP, then LOL is a MMORPG.  What's the point of making PvE stuff then?  There isn't one.  The two can't coexist.  That's the truth that no player or developer wants to admit.  The OP is critiquing the game is too short because of the PvE content.  Has nothing to do with PvP offering TSW has now or could have in the future.  Different things entirely.

 

 

Op isn't even critiquing the game on is PvE content, just the bits he wants to do.

 

PvE and PvP content can coexist very well, and has done in many a sandbox and themepark MMOs.    Hardcore PvP (i.e. corpse looting, peradeath, etc) however I'd agree can't, unless its isolated areas.

ok outta curiosity   pvp ....pve  coexisting  without  massive ammount of bitching ..what games ? i only know  one and that was the old guild wars ...but that had no body loot ect 

and isnt  sandbox  automaticly connected to hardcore pvp most of the time  ?

I have 108 hours (Raptr) on TSW. So $35.99 divided by 108 = 33c,per hour. I just got to Eygpt and did not do everything on the island.

For me TSW is one of the longest MMORPGs I've played.

Rift/WoW/SWToR are all about 2-4 days played and then the content is done. Sure there's gear treadmill but that's not real 'content' right?

Even without touching the PvP, TSW packs atleast 2 weeks of played content.

Sure you can ignore the content and rush to QQ on the forums. But that's not the game's fault, it's yours.

If you play the game _wrongly_ you don't have much to backup your whining with.

I can understand people who enjoy alting and playing "other classes" might feel that TSW is short and that I do understand. Personally alting has never been my thing and replaying the same content over and over again probably shouldn't be considered as content either. For people who only play 1 toon, TSW is the richest MMORPG in content on the market.

Originally posted by Epic1oots

people rush thru a game and compain its too short.

Each area has 40-50 missions.  So you can say it has 400-450 spread throughout the game.  A majority of those can be completed within 10-15 minutes or even less ( some you just run back with a package which take no more than a couple minutes.)  if you have a good build that can handle mobs in the area the mission is in.  Only ones that will hold you back for a good length of time are the investigation missions.   If the game had side activities within each area to preoccupy people besides going from point a to point b in the story you would not be seeing any complaints about length.

Originally posted by cyress8

Originally posted by Epic1oots

people rush thru a game and compain its too short.

Each area has 40-50 missions.  So you can say it has 400-450 spread throughout the game.  A majority of those can be completed within 10-15 minutes or even less ( some you just run back with a package which take no more than a couple minutes.)  if you have a good build that can handle mobs in the area the mission is in.  Only ones that will hold you back for a good length of time are the investigation missions.   If the game had side activities within each area to preoccupy people besides going from point a to point b in the story you would not be seeing any complaints about length.

That's not true, no matter what, some people would complaint about lenght, as it's the case right now.

Most of the playerbase it's not even halfways  into the game, probably not even 1/3 into it, but some already rushed to 2the end" and those that did wouldn't have gone thru any side things to do, cause that's not what they do, for the most part.

You can take your time to complete all achievements and lore on every area, you can PvP, explore, socialize, but some people won't.

That doesn't mean that the game is short.  If most people would have ran out of game content then the game would be short.

Originally posted by cyress8

Originally posted by Epic1oots

people rush thru a game and compain its too short.

Each area has 40-50 missions.  So you can say it has 400-450 spread throughout the game.  A majority of those can be completed within 10-15 minutes or even less ( some you just run back with a package which take no more than a couple minutes.)  if you have a good build that can handle mobs in the area the mission is in.  Only ones that will hold you back for a good length of time are the investigation missions. 

Utterly false.  Item missions have generally 2 tiers.  Depending on the item mission these can take you between 15-20 minutes and some are escort/fed ex missions that lead to other missions you can pick up.  While other item missions branch into more tiers and can take significantly longer to do.

The Action missions which make up a large portion of the missions have anywhere between 4-7 tiers.  Each of these have multiple steps to completion and can take up to an hour or more to do them.  Some even longer.  Sabotage Missions fall within this line.

Majority of missions completed in 10-15 minutes?  Not even close.  Anyone who's spent any amount of time in TSW knows this as a fact.

Originally posted by grapevine

ok outta curiosity   pvp ....pve  coexisting  without  massive ammount of bitching ..what games ? i only know  one and that was the old guild wars ...but that had no body loot ect 

and isnt  sandbox  automaticly connected to hardcore pvp most of the time  ?

 

SWG for one, and don't confuse the vocal minority with the average player. Also a sandbox is not automatically connected to hardcore pvp. For example the most sandbox game around is Second Life. It doesn't even have an in built combat system, and after players built a few they aren't heavily used. Even games like WOW don't have that much REAL bitching. Bitching usually comes from those that don't understand it can't be balanced on a 1 on 1 basis, and that is no matter the game.

Sorry but I was there and remember the bitching quite well.  Most of it was between bounty hunters and jedi and every PVE player that got affected by the nerf wars.  Plus you had people that wanted to be jedi but didn't like being forced into PVP in order to play one. 

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by nilden

 

Wouldn't it make sense to make an MMORPG based on player created/driven content then? Doesn't it seem counter productive to make it story driven? Why did you even mention sandbox? Are you assuming that themeparks can't have player driven content?

The game doesn't have to be a sandbox to have that longevity.

This discussion is glossing over, or outright missing one very key detail: There are people out there who play MMOs to "beat them". To get to end-game as fast as they can. That's their goal. That's their "fun". That's why they are playing the game to begin with. "To get to the end". They will find the most efficient, fastest and easiest ways to get through everything (including using walk-through and strat guides to "eliminate any time wasted on guess work").

Many of these people have a lot of free time on their hands that they can dedicate to this endeavor. That's not a knock against them. Hell, I wish I had more free time, I have a lot of projects I'd love to spend more time working on, even outside of MMOs.

Those people are sometimes referred to as content locusts.

There are people like that in every MMO and no MMO could ever provide enough to keep them entertained for the long haul, because they're not in it for the long haul.

Some people play MMOs to experience them.

Some play MMOs to "conquer" them.

The former can play a MMO for years, never see everything, and have a blast.

The latter will typically play a MMO for maybe a few months, burn through everything, get bored, (perhaps complain on forums about "not enough content"), and move on to some other MMO to do the same thing. They're the quintessential MMO-hoppers.

Both types of players (and all in-between) are playing exactly the same game, have exactly the same content to get through and have exactly the same requirements to get through it. It all boils down to personal playstyles and goals, and there's a huge chasm of difference there.

An old friend of mine and I used to both play FFXI. I'm very much the "experience the game" type. He was very much the "conquer the game" type. We'd have conversations about what we did in game. He'd go on about how he followed such-and-such guide to get this "perfect build" that gave him maximum efficiency in fighting certain mobs or in completing some mission, etc. Every minute he was logged in was dedicated to "progress progress progress!". I would respond with some stories of my own, of some random (mis)adventure I went off on, of some funny situation that arose during an xp party that ended in an epic wipe, etc. As I'm telling my friend this, I could see his expression was something of like... pity mixed with frustration.

When he responded, he'd say something like "Well, I don't know. Not a very efficient or productive use of your time. I would have left that party and found one that was better optimized and more efficient. You could have probably gotten at least another level and a half in that time instead." That's the way he saw what I was doing. An epic wipe that had me almost in tears at how hilarious it was, was a terrible waste of time to him.

It wasn't about having fun to him. It was about "being productive and efficient at all times". I get that same vibe from many others in MMOs I play now. They judge and value everything on "how efficiently it's getting them through the game". They value their playtime based on "how many levels did I get", or "did I get any good loot". It's never about the experience of playing to these people. It's always about "was the payoff worth it".

Just as it must perplex that type of player to see people who, like myself, are perfectly fine with taking a long time to reach level cap (we're often mis-labeled as "masochists").. It really confuses me how others can find enjoyment in something they treat like a second job.

But then, I guess that's why we have sayings like "to each their own".

 

This.  I have a friend who min/maxes the same way.  Never understood it, and probably never will.  

cant believe the BS talk still continues....besides its already major league out of  topic

Originally posted by surrealbx

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by nilden

I love it when a valid point is presented like the game being too short and the advice some people give to counter it is don't play it so much. Honestly who wouldn't play more if they had more free time? I can't picture anyone going "Have five hours today but I'll only play for an hour. Wouldn't want to beat the game too fast." Who buys a game to not play it?

Because the amount of free time makes all the difference? MMO companies don't design content keeping in mind players who can spend 10 hours a day in front of the PC. That is unrealistic and no MMO company can spit out content that fast.

I hate to spin off titles. But I can comfortably say. The following MMO's had enough content at launch to keep my occupied for months: EQ, DAoC, EQ2, AC2, EVE, WoW, Rift,

 

I dont expect an MMO to spin off content quickly, just create some sustainability. I have no reason to login atm.

Sorry you are not fooling me. Played all those MMOS at launch and Rift had similar posts croppping up within two weeks. EQ2 was a buggy mess at launch and thin on content. EVE, WOW and even Daoc had an average amount of content which you could finish most of with in 30 days depending upon how much free time you got.

All these MMOS took years to be whre they are today in terms of content.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by surrealbx

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by nilden

I love it when a valid point is presented like the game being too short and the advice some people give to counter it is don't play it so much. Honestly who wouldn't play more if they had more free time? I can't picture anyone going "Have five hours today but I'll only play for an hour. Wouldn't want to beat the game too fast." Who buys a game to not play it?

Because the amount of free time makes all the difference? MMO companies don't design content keeping in mind players who can spend 10 hours a day in front of the PC. That is unrealistic and no MMO company can spit out content that fast.

I hate to spin off titles. But I can comfortably say. The following MMO's had enough content at launch to keep my occupied for months: EQ, DAoC, EQ2, AC2, EVE, WoW, Rift,

 

I dont expect an MMO to spin off content quickly, just create some sustainability. I have no reason to login atm.

Sorry you are not fooling me. Played all those MMOS at launch and Rift had similar posts croppping up within two weeks. EQ2 was a buggy mess at launch and thin on content. EVE, WOW and even Daoc had an average amount of content which you could finish most of with in 30 days depending upon how much free time you got.

 

All these MMOS took years to be whre they are today in terms of content.

 

There is one major difference between  EQ, DAoC, EQ2, AC2 and WoW  when they launched, and today's MMO's.

It's not amount of content, it's leveling speed.

Back in 2002-2004, you did not hit level-cap in a MMO in 2 weeks, no matter HOW you played it. The xp per hour rate in those games was way slower than it is now. And it slowed down noticeably as you reached higher levels. That was the accepted standard in those days.

SW:TOR has a massive amount of content in each zone. If you do ALL the content in each zone (including the bonus content), you end up so far over-leveled that you could almost entirely skip the next zone. But that massive amount of content made no difference in the end, because the leveling speed was so high that the first players were hitting endgame at the end of Early Access !

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Originally posted by jdnyc

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Originally posted by cyress8

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Originally posted by Epic1oots people rush thru a game and compain its too short.

---

Each area has 40-50 missions.  So you can say it has 400-450 spread throughout the game.  A majority of those can be completed within 10-15 minutes or even less ( some you just run back with a package which take no more than a couple minutes.)  if you have a good build that can handle mobs in the area the mission is in.  Only ones that will hold you back for a good length of time are the investigation missions. 

---

Utterly false.  Item missions have generally 2 tiers.  Depending on the item mission these can take you between 15-20 minutes and some are escort/fed ex missions that lead to other missions you can pick up.  While other item missions branch into more tiers and can take significantly longer to do.

The Action missions which make up a large portion of the missions have anywhere between 4-7 tiers.  Each of these have multiple steps to completion and can take up to an hour or more to do them.  Some even longer.  Sabotage Missions fall within this line.

Majority of missions completed in 10-15 minutes?  Not even close.  Anyone who's spent any amount of time in TSW knows this as a fact.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by jdnyc

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Originally posted by cyress8

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Originally posted by Epic1oots people rush thru a game and compain its too short.

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Each area has 40-50 missions.  So you can say it has 400-450 spread throughout the game.  A majority of those can be completed within 10-15 minutes or even less ( some you just run back with a package which take no more than a couple minutes.)  if you have a good build that can handle mobs in the area the mission is in.  Only ones that will hold you back for a good length of time are the investigation missions. 

---

Utterly false.  Item missions have generally 2 tiers.  Depending on the item mission these can take you between 15-20 minutes and some are escort/fed ex missions that lead to other missions you can pick up.  While other item missions branch into more tiers and can take significantly longer to do.

 

The Action missions which make up a large portion of the missions have anywhere between 4-7 tiers.  Each of these have multiple steps to completion and can take up to an hour or more to do them.  Some even longer.  Sabotage Missions fall within this line.

Majority of missions completed in 10-15 minutes?  Not even close.  Anyone who's spent any amount of time in TSW knows this as a fact.

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500 missions at 15 minutes per missions is 7500 minutes of play time. That's a total of 125 hours of just questing, without repeating any daily quests to max out skill points, without doing any raids and without doing any PvP. At 4 hours a day, every day, that's 30 days of game time. For most people, this is plenty.

That's what matters. Most people will have plenty to do. The amount of content can only expand over time so most people will have more than enough content to last them. Well, as long as Funcom sticks to the strong points of the game instead of trying to compete with WoW in dungeons and raids.

 

125 hours of quest content ? Sounds quite feasible.

The OP stated somewhere in this thread that his total /played time was 134 hours, and he'd not done ALL the quests.

I doubt most people that post on these forums (or play MMO's) have any idea how long it takes to create new content. How many man-hours go into designing, developing and testing a new quest. But then again, I doubt that they care either. The fact that it most likely takes more than 20 hours to produce a quest that a player finishes in 20 minutes is irrelevant.

If people realised how long it took to develop things, they might be able to form more realistic expectations of when (and how much) content would be delivered. But instead we have:

"Dude, you want me to wait TWO months for that feature ? GTFO ! I'll be playing endgame in the next new MMO by then !"

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I doubt most people that post on these forums (or play MMO's) have any idea how long it takes to create new content. How many man-hours go into designing, developing and testing a new quest. But then again, I doubt that they care either. The fact that it most likely takes more than 20 hours to produce a quest that a player finishes in 20 minutes is irrelevant.

If people realised how long it took to develop things, they might be able to form more realistic expectations of when (and how much) content would be delivered. But instead we have:

"Dude, you want me to wait TWO months for that feature ? GTFO ! I'll be playing endgame in the next new MMO by then !"

The issue is not the customers, the issue is the developers and the current trend in MMOs. If you're going to release a game that is mostly designed around exhaustible content aka story missions and quests, you have to expect running into this sort of a problem.

Realistic expectations aside, people aren't going to pay a subscription fee for 2 months while waiting for new content or feature if they've ran out of things to do. It's as simple as that.

Quite simply, this game lacks the tools for players to create their own content and thus keep them playing long term. Ragnar knows this and that is why they are aiming for monthly content patches. Hopefully the patches are extensive enough to keep people occupied for a few /played days. We'll find out at the end of the month.

Edit: I accidentally a word.

Originally posted by godpuppet

 

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Originally posted by Melieza It really upsets me all these "theres no endgame" posts.  YOU GUYS DONT EVEN KNOW ABOUT THE GAME YOURE PLAYING! Have you heard of puzzles pieces?  Rare spawn monsters? Did you know this game has region bosses and even a world boss? http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/interview-with-funcom/ Please read this, specifically the end game question, and stop with these naive posts.

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ok, heres what he said:

 

 

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End game is a different monster to tackle. I think one of the biggest faults of MMOs today is that they create content for the players to consume, and when it's consumed, players never visit it again. Reusing the content in a clever way can make development cost lower, and player enjoyment bigger. Our game is slightly different from other MMOs since we don't have any level, and end game is a bit harder to define, but players will have plenty to do. All our dungeons are available in different difficulties, and some of them are insanely hard. This will only be for the best of the best. Also, in every zone the player has played through will have certain camps with monsters that were too hard for them to fight when they visited the zone for the first time. However, when they are strong enough, they can go back and whoop the monsters' asses. By doing this they will gather different puzzle pieces, which they can combine, and then summon forth a demon to fight. If they are successful they will get some nice gear, but a also another puzzle piece. If a player gathers enough of these puzzle pieces, they can summon the region boss, which is a huge baddie! Fighting these guys will require lots of players and very nice coordination. These guys will drop even better gear, but also a puzzle piece. These pieces are for the world boss, which is... Well... Let's just say you need to be a pretty frikking awesome player to tackle him...

 

In addition to all of this we have lots of PvP the players can have fun with. Everything from some quick action minigames, to persistent world domination PvP. We will also have social features like dance floors, a theater and bars to hang out in. We will also release our first raid, very shortly after release.

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Key Points:

 

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All our dungeons are available in different difficulties, and some of them are insanely hard.

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Yeah, which ive done, and unfortunately the harder ones require me to wait 16 hours a try and they're bugged.

 

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By doing this they will gather different puzzle pieces, which they can combine, and then summon forth a demon to fight. If they are successful they will get some nice gear, but a also another puzzle piece. If a player gathers enough of these puzzle pieces, they can summon the region boss, which is a huge baddie!

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So what your saying is this should be my endgame? Going around chasing world mobs?

 

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In addition to all of this we have lots of PvP the players can have fun with. Everything from some quick action minigames, to persistent world domination PvP.

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So like I said in my OP, endgame has PVP.

 

Look im sorry im bashing your favorite game. But you cant really say im naive when the thread you linked me too says the same things i said in my OP. I enjoyed the game too but theres no endgame, or its too short.

How can you say it's too short, when not a single realm has even managed to spawn even a zone boss, yet alone a region boss.

The vast majority of people are still playing through the normal content and aren't even trying collecting the puzzle pieces.

You just rushed through the zones and then end up being alone with no one else to play with, not able to do the nightmare mode dungeons yet, because there aren't enough people geared up for it yet.... and then start complaining the game is too short, when you haven't even tried any of the available endgame content. At least PVE.

Have you unlocked the entire ability wheel and unlocked the entire skill wheel to try out various builds?  I guess not.

Or just tried unlocking the various gear sets you can get via completing available decks? I guess not.

This is also part of the game and will keep you busy for a long time.