Originally posted by Finit

 

I know this is a controversial issue, so please be respectful to those who may disagree with you.  Thank you!

That doesn't happen on these forums.

The only reason WvW works is because of the way GW2 is designed, open world pvp has no place here. It's different for every game, WvW won't change my love for open world PvP.

Originally posted by GriselBrand

Originally posted by Finit

 

I know this is a controversial issue, so please be respectful to those who may disagree with you.  Thank you!

That doesn't happen on these forums.

The only reason WvW works is because of the way GW2 is designed, open world pvp has no place here. It's different for every game, WvW won't change my love for open world PvP.

Touche my friend, just because world PVP was executed badly on some MMOs doesnt mean it is not great or that some people dont find it great, Open World PVP is just bad on Theme Park MMOs because there is no real goal other than to gank others. Others have done it much better in the past and continue doing it much better.

But ofc the Theme Park crowd that only really played WoW only has to say that Open World PVP is for gankers, but I dont blame them, their experience is quite limited. And Theme Parks have been horrible at implementing World PVP, its the reason Blizzard dropped it right after vanilla it just didnt work for their theme park framework.

When I mean drop it I mean moved the focus completely from anything world pvp, they had a couple of failed experiments and that's it, pretty much everything to do with PVP is done inside instances. It is also much more e-sport like which is what i dare say non-MMO people ( guys that have started playing MMOs with WoW and so on and may not necessarily be avid MMORPG followers ) like the most, which has been made popular with games like League of Legends etc.. its the sort of balanced ladder format completely detached from the world in the sense that you are in an instance and some number at the end told you, you won, which just doesnt appeal to me.

Are you guys insane in thinking that there's no "ganking opertunities" within the Wx3 gameplay?  Have any of you who make this claim even played the game yet?

Let's start with the Carvan Escorts, which more times than fingers on both hands was I ganked or ganking at these during a single weekend.  Players escoring these supply chains have no guards (unless upgraded) and if solo have a high possiblity of getting slaughtered as they're basically escorting a high-priority target.

Then there are the DE's such as the the NPC Army Camps, which armies fight over like crazy because of the significant physical boon to their troops they provide.  Many times have groups come behind smaller groups in the mist of these and slayed them all while they're mid fight with NPC's. 

So, which ganking are people so proud of in world-PvP that's so special? Is it where you're a decked out LvL80 coming into a LvL15 zone and spawn camping some "newbs" until they "GG logout"?  That's not Open World PvP, that's just plan sadism.

I like how in this game players are on even ground with everyone being boosted to LvL80 when doing the Wx3.  Though with gear and the higher the level, player's skills and such will take more weight over someone just LvL2 that's boosted against someone who's say LvL69 ;)  that's boosted.  But, overall they're somewhat on par.

As for the Risk/Reward, there's that in this game already with how each and every time you enter a DOWN STATE (not just dead, but down state as mentioned by the developers) your armor integrity gets weaker and breaks a bit more.   This means that there's a cost to constantly dying in the game, that's a risk.   No need for extremes such as full or partial looting, because that's not what this game is about nor designed for (door for Darkfall is that way ---->).

Who really cares what this tiny niche of players thinks?

Its real simple if they cant gank or corpse camp in the open world they dont like the game because winning head to head on a fair battlefield is not an option for this sneaky behind the back litterbox bunch..

Any game dev that welcomes this bunch by providing them with what they want for their griefing needs has doomed itself financially..

I was always a world pvp kind of guy, but over time you just lose interest to gank questing people who wont even fight back 6/10 times.

Often its that pesky OP rogue kind of class who corpse camp the living hell out of anything for the fun of it.

There are many games that provide these kind of gameplay, and people should go play those games and dont complain about a game that doesnt provide griefing.

Because thats all it is, griefing bad players.

Its what i like inside the WoW arena, even numbers and split second tactical switches and counters.

Something a poor noob will never pull off.

Its a matter of taste, if you dont like cheese dont eat it.

In a game with dynamic level adjustment Open-World PVP might have been possible (and fun)

Looking at it from a sportsman's point of view, yeah, clean and fair is better. But war is hell. If there was a real war, all bets are off. I think that is what the proponents of Open World PvP enjoy. It is more realistic. Some people like to play games, others are looking for a fantasy.

You know those evil orcs would kill your babies. You might even do the same to them if it meant saving your families' lives.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Adalwulff

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by WoW_Refugee

Real PvPers get their kicks fighting challenging opponents who can give them a good fight, not killing lowbies. Open world PvP is for gankers and griefers. 'Nuff said.

Er, unless the game is properly developed and there isn't a huge power gap, and there's an incentive not to gank. You sound like you've never played a FFA PVP MMO. At best you've played a PvE MMOs "pvp" server.

 

You mean like Darkfall, Mortal Online.... both dead.

Darkfall is actually probably the only MMO in the last 6 years that can say that its growing over time, in the same way older MMOs did. The only one that's opened extra servers, not closed servers.

But I guess it's totally dead, just don't tell the publishers that just signed a big deal with Aventurine, or the 30 new developers the team hired.

 

Mortal Online was always crap, but it wasn't because of the PvP.

Eve is FFA PvP if you happen to recall? And its pretty much the healthiest MMO out there.

The pop is still nothing compared to every other MMO out there, Darkfall is still a niche game, just like all open world PvP games are.

Yes EVE is massive ffa PvP, thats why most of the players avoid null sec. Most of the players are in high sec doing missions or mining and playing with the markets, this has been confirmed by CCP.

Bascially CCP was able to attract the niche crowd, by offering them a way to gank. A funny thing about that, is CCP expanded on the null sec area, because of pressure from the highly vocal niche crowd, but most players still avoided it.

Face facts guys, you will always be a niche crowd.

Originally posted by dageeza

Who really cares what this tiny niche of players thinks?

Its real simple if they cant gank or corpse camp in the open world they dont like the game because winning head to head on a fair battlefield is not an option for this sneaky behind the back litterbox bunch..

Any game dev that welcomes this bunch by providing them with what they want for their griefing needs has doomed itself financially..

 

Following your logic, any feature that isnt in WoW shouldnt be implemented because "who cares about a tiny niche of players?", I mean WoW has the popularity and the most players of pretty much every other MMO combined. 

It has nothing to do with Gank, I understand you may have limited experience in actual open world PVP, as most people who have only played theme parks ( AKA WoW and derivatives ) its easy to not understand that there is more to open world PVP than ganking.

Open world PVP doesnt mean just ganking at random locations it also means adding persistance to the events you are playing in these instances, it means having RvR actually affect your server persistently. Join Instance -> You have got more resource numbers than your enemy -> You Win -> destroy instance -> rinse and repeat. That is a lot more fun than actually having a persistent world experience where people have to coordinate to take back bits of the server for their faction or whatever, and actually see an effect rather than this Counter Strike like model we have today. EVE is a great example of this, imagine if everytime you got soverignty it just popped up a messsage saying you won and just reset the instance, absolute garbage.

Again this is my opinion, your entitled to yours but dont try and make it sound like its a fact because you dont know any better and are just focusing on a side effect of having world pvp and not what world pvp is actually about. 

Originally posted by Palebane

Looking at it from a sportsman's point of view, yeah, clean and fair is better. But war is hell. If there was a real war, all bets are off. I think that is what the proponents of Open World PvP enjoy. It is more realistic. Some people like to play games, others are looking for a fantasy.

You know those evil orcs would kill your babies. You might even do the same to them if it meant saving your families' lives.

That's the thing though. WvW isn't 'fair' or 'balanced'. The devs have even said as much, to the point of saying 'if you don't like it, tough sh*t',

The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success). There's really very little middle ground. This is compounded by the gear treadmill most games have.

GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower. Like a real war, the side w/ superior tactics and strategy, has the best chance of winning.

The way WvW exists currently, you can most definitely sneak up on someone and kill them in seconds. However, you need to be smart about it, and there is most definitely a risk. Hell, I spent the end of last BWE running around WvW either solo or duo. We were looking for the open world dungeon, and were severely outnumbered. The enemy easily had over 100 people running around, we had maybe 10. It was scary as hell, and we spent a lot of time trying to sneak passed the enemy, trying to figure out if we had been seen, making judgement calls about whether or not to kill a straggler (and possibly face the wraith of his friends).

This type of situation most definitely exists in WvW, and is probably the most important factor of OPvP in terms of fun. It's where the excitement comes from. With the exception of people who enjoy ganking. Really the only lack of 'enjoyment' here, is you can't force someone to 'rage quit', or grief / gank them out of the game. Personally, that's not my thing. I don't care if I get the best of someone and they go back to doing PvE. I care about what's happening in the mists, and if people leave, that's no different than people logging off.

Really open world PvP just caters to the ganking trolls who get their little buddies together and run around killing people with less numbers. In my opinion that is not PvP... These are not the kind of people you want to cater your game towards and the community will be better off for it. What we do have is an even playing field in WvW, which sure you can gank, but where does that really get you if your not going for objectives? I am yet to understand those who enjoy facerolling in open world for no benefit... Bring on GW2.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Palebane

Looking at it from a sportsman's point of view, yeah, clean and fair is better. But war is hell. If there was a real war, all bets are off. I think that is what the proponents of Open World PvP enjoy. It is more realistic. Some people like to play games, others are looking for a fantasy.

You know those evil orcs would kill your babies. You might even do the same to them if it meant saving your families' lives.

That's the thing though. WvW isn't 'fair' or 'balanced'. The devs have even said as much, to the point of saying 'if you don't like it, tough sh*t',

The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success). There's really very little middle ground. This is compounded by the gear treadmill most games have.

GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower. Like a real war, the side w/ superior tactics and strategy, has the best chance of winning.

The way WvW exists currently, you can most definitely sneak up on someone and kill them in seconds. However, you need to be smart about it, and there is most definitely a risk. Hell, I spent the end of last BWE running around WvW either solo or duo. We were looking for the open world dungeon, and were severely outnumbered. The enemy easily had over 100 people running around, we had maybe 10. It was scary as hell, and we spent a lot of time trying to sneak passed the enemy, trying to figure out if we had been seen, making judgement calls about whether or not to kill a straggler (and possibly face the wraith of his friends).

This type of situation most definitely exists in WvW, and is probably the most important factor of OPvP in terms of fun. It's where the excitement comes from. With the exception of people who enjoy ganking. Really the only lack of 'enjoyment' here, is you can't force someone to 'rage quit', or grief / gank them out of the game. Personally, that's not my thing. I don't care if I get the best of someone and they go back to doing PvE. I care about what's happening in the mists, and if people leave, that's no different than people logging off.

So what you are saying with the highlighted is that it is exactly the same thing then? That in WvW you better bring superior fire power and more people to gank others and make sure you win. Basically text book ganking is what you suggest.

If the problem is having safe areas for people that do not want to engage in PVP then there are other ways, and again ganking lower level people is not the purpose of open world PVP its attacking your enemy that is the purpose, there are many games that implement incentives to NOT attack lower level people either by penalties to you or by protecting massive level gaps.

Like in a real war, if you are fighting for your side with a pocket knife do you think your enemy will stop and say "damn I have an RPG, but the guy just has a pocket knife I guess I will just drop this right here and fight fairly" the whole point is that if you are involved in war you better be prepared, pointless ganking is not world pvp, world pvp is actively engaging in a war against someone if you do that it doesnt matter if you are level 1 or lvl 100 or have super human skills.

Lineage 2 did this pretty damn well, there were pretty hefty penalties for killing someone that didnt fight back, if you declared a war on someone then you are fair game regardless of skill level, gear, level, there was no incentive for anyone that owned a castle and a massive army to kill some random dude on a field, but if that dude went around calling everyone names and being rude that situation quickly changed, your reputation actually meant something, if you didnt want to get involved in wars and not get ganked by enemies then you joined a clan that didnt provoke others and wasnt involved in wars. 

Ill be waiting for the time when people start calling each other names and spamming "Anal Dirge" and all sorts of nonsense without fear of anything happening to them cause it doesnt matter you are just a number and you can't do anything to me, just like in WoW, anyone can be a douche cause everything is throw away and doesnt really matter as long as I am having fun, there is no roleplaying game whatsoever.

Edit: Real wars are not about balanced sides, its not about same numbers, same weapons, same stats, its about using your resources efficiently and making sure you have a strategy with whatever you got that will make you win, if you walk alone into no man's land you better have a reason to do so other than just expecting to be killed. Like other people said and I agree Open World doesnt fit into GW2 because it just lacks the infrastructure for open world pvp to actually work, and I am not saying it works in Darkfall or Mortal Online either, but it damn sure works in EVE and its awesome. Terrible implementation of World PVP != Open World PVP is bad.

Originally posted by SkullyWoods

Open world PvP keeps me on my toes. I like that.

This, is what i will be missing in GW2

Originally posted by Raven

Originally posted by aesperus

The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success)

GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower.

So what you are saying with the highlighted is that it is exactly the same thing then? That in WvW you better bring superior fire power and more people to gank others and make sure you win. Basically text book ganking is what you suggest.

If the problem is having safe areas for people that do not want to engage in PVP then there are other ways, and again ganking lower level people is not the purpose of open world PVP its attacking your enemy that is the purpose, there are many games that implement incentives to NOT attack lower level people either by penalties to you or by protecting massive level gaps.

Like in a real war, if you are fighting for your side with a pocket knife do you think your enemy will stop and say "damn I have an RPG, but the guy just has a pocket knife I guess I will just drop this right here and fight fairly" the whole point is that if you are involved in war you better be prepared, pointless ganking is not world pvp, world pvp is actively engaging in a war against someone if you do that it doesnt matter if you are level 1 or lvl 100 or have super human skills.

Lineage 2 did this pretty damn well, there were pretty hefty penalties for killing someone that didnt fight back, if you declared a war on someone then you are fair game regardless of skill level, gear, level, there was no incentive for anyone that owned a castle and a massive army to kill some random dude on a field, but if that dude went around calling everyone names and being rude that situation quickly changed, your reputation actually meant something, if you didnt want to get involved in wars and not get ganked by enemies then you joined a clan that didnt provoke others and wasnt involved in wars. 

Ill be waiting for the time when people start calling each other names and spamming "Anal Dirge" and all sorts of nonsense without fear of anything happening to them cause it doesnt matter you are just a number and you can't do anything to me, just like in WoW, anyone can be a douche cause everything is throw away and doesnt really matter as long as I am having fun, there is no roleplaying game whatsoever.

Not even remotely close to what I was saying.

I was going to structure a response, but reading your reply makes me wonder if you even bothered to read my post, at all?

How many games with World PvP are balanced, have real incentives, and are not ruined by a gear treadmill? Probably the most famous one of recent history would be either Darkfall, or Shadowbane. However in both games you could get 1shotted simply for not being high enough into the game.

WvW has ganking, but it is of a very different sort than other world pvp games. Regardless of your lvl, you can try and gank someone and have that person completely turn around and dominate you through superior skills. Very few games have that, VERY few.

As for war examples, you may want to do some reading through military history. There's many examples of a side with superior 'power' losing to a side with inferior numbers and equipment. Vietnam was one of them. Sure, you could try and shoot the guy w/ a knife with a bazooka, but you could miss, you could blow yourself up, and you could still get stabbed.

It's not like how in other games where your magic sword of raids-a-lot basically has enough power to whipe out a village. If you wanna go ruin that guy's day, you better be sure you're good enough to do so, and that he doesn't have any tricks up his sleave. Personally, I'm going to enjoy watching people try and gank me in WvW, only to be thrown off a cliff.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Raven

Originally posted by aesperus

The difference here, is that in traditional OPvP games there is such an imbalance, as to players are basically either getting 1 shotted (zero chance of success), or ganking (nearly 100% chance of success)

GW2 & WvW removes this. Like in a real war, you can go after other people and murder them. However, unless you want to risk death, you better make sure you bring some backup, or superior firepower.

So what you are saying with the highlighted is that it is exactly the same thing then? That in WvW you better bring superior fire power and more people to gank others and make sure you win. Basically text book ganking is what you suggest.

If the problem is having safe areas for people that do not want to engage in PVP then there are other ways, and again ganking lower level people is not the purpose of open world PVP its attacking your enemy that is the purpose, there are many games that implement incentives to NOT attack lower level people either by penalties to you or by protecting massive level gaps.

Like in a real war, if you are fighting for your side with a pocket knife do you think your enemy will stop and say "damn I have an RPG, but the guy just has a pocket knife I guess I will just drop this right here and fight fairly" the whole point is that if you are involved in war you better be prepared, pointless ganking is not world pvp, world pvp is actively engaging in a war against someone if you do that it doesnt matter if you are level 1 or lvl 100 or have super human skills.

Lineage 2 did this pretty damn well, there were pretty hefty penalties for killing someone that didnt fight back, if you declared a war on someone then you are fair game regardless of skill level, gear, level, there was no incentive for anyone that owned a castle and a massive army to kill some random dude on a field, but if that dude went around calling everyone names and being rude that situation quickly changed, your reputation actually meant something, if you didnt want to get involved in wars and not get ganked by enemies then you joined a clan that didnt provoke others and wasnt involved in wars. 

Ill be waiting for the time when people start calling each other names and spamming "Anal Dirge" and all sorts of nonsense without fear of anything happening to them cause it doesnt matter you are just a number and you can't do anything to me, just like in WoW, anyone can be a douche cause everything is throw away and doesnt really matter as long as I am having fun, there is no roleplaying game whatsoever.

Not even remotely close to what I was saying.

I was going to structure a response, but reading your reply makes me wonder if you even bothered to read my post, at all?

How many games with World PvP are balanced, have real incentives, and are not ruined by a gear treadmill? Probably the most famous one of recent history would be either Darkfall, or Shadowbane. However in both games you could get 1shotted simply for not being high enough into the game.

WvW has ganking, but it is of a very different sort than other world pvp games. Regardless of your lvl, you can try and gank someone and have that person completely turn around and dominate you through superior skills. Very few games have that, VERY few.

As for war examples, you may want to do some reading through military history. There's many examples of a side with superior 'power' losing to a side with inferior numbers and equipment. Vietnam was one of them. Sure, you could try and shoot the guy w/ a knife with a bazooka, but you could miss, you could blow yourself up, and you could still get stabbed.

It's not like how in other games where your magic sword of raids-a-lot basically has enough power to whipe out a village. If you wanna go ruin that guy's day, you better be sure you're good enough to do so, and that he doesn't have any tricks up his sleave. Personally, I'm going to enjoy watching people try and gank me in WvW, only to be thrown off a cliff.

I dont know what is your point what you just posted is exactly what I said in my post, but Id rather have that experience in the open world outside of an instance where a war can break out anywhere not just in the predetermined place the game tells you, you can win.

There is a lot more strategy involved, do you launch a campaign and go to your enemies territory and wage a war, did they do that and just found you, are they trying to siege down your fortresss, are they killing people in your village ruining your economy. To me is a lot more fun. Other than that yeah sorry maybe I misunderstood your post I agree and what you describe happens in open world, it just has a lot more complexity than in a closed environment when your world is your battleground. Again my opinion if you think WvW closed environment is better than I respectfully disagree.

Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit. This is the biggest single thing where Darkfall failed to deliver.

Hopefully Planetside 2 is as good as they say. We could use a new real pvpMMO.

Originally posted by busdriver

Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit.

I don't see how the targetting system affects PvP balance between newbies and veterans, but otherwise you are quite right. That's why FFA PvP ends as a gank fest in all MMOs that have it without harsh restrictions.

For me FFA open world PVP with full loot should be in every MMORPG.. any game without it in some form is missing somthing amazing... I jut love the extra thrill it brings to the game.

The WvWvW in GW2 and persistant battleground in TSW and are probally spme of the best alternatives I have come accross in a modern themepark game.. Mainly because the PVP has a purpose.. having a reason to fight other people helps a lot. Dont get me wrong its good to just have mindless deathmatches now and then but it gets boring fast..

Still for me games without FFA open world full loot pvp will always be missing somthing really good..

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by busdriver

Level/gear based game + FFA pvp = fail. FFA needs to be (player) skill based or it just doesn't work and the result is griefers rampart. Even a fresh newbie with good reflexes should have a change to beat any player in game, this is why I support manual targeting instead of autoaim bullshit.

I don't see how the targetting system affects PvP balance between newbies and veterans, but otherwise you are quite right. That's why FFA PvP ends as a gank fest in all MMOs that have it without harsh restrictions.

I actually disagree to some extent with what busdriver said and I think that what you are saying falls on this framework, I dont think a level one player should be able to go toe to toe with a veteran player, adding twitch combat is not the solution to this, you still have to take into account gear acquired, quality of gear, a cracked wooden shield is not gonna protect you against a direct hit from a prestine crafted steel mace ( this doesnt stop your friend from just crafting you a pristine steel shield mind you ), instead of trying to create this scenario where everyone is equal and is twitch based or whatever gimmick.

I think instead developers should aim to provide functions that everyone can use from day 0 to be useful even against a veteran player, so if you started yesterday and joined an ongoing war you can't be expected to go toe to toe with a guy in full plate armour, steel sword and shield etc.. but maybe you are quick because your wearing toilet paper armour, you may be able to distract him and land a couple of hits but it will certainly not kill him. But you can focus your usefullness somewhere else maybe pickup a bow and help your archers with a rain of arrows that will still damage and cripple even a guy with lots of armor that you cant take 1 on 1.

This same thing happens in EVE, when you start with a small ship you can't really take on a capital ship by yourself, but you can still be useful to your corporation by being a tackler and disrupting said capital ship while the bigger  ships with more firepower actually take it down.

I annoys me a little bit that people are locked in this mindset that the game needs to tell you , you are at war as soon as you login, you need to kill the other faction, it doesnt matter why, your just at war, you are the hero, go and kill everything you see and this is the problem and where I see a big design flaw, it should be up to the player to decide whether he wants to get involved in some war or not. If you are not prepared for war then you shouldnt be part of it, this is why open world pvp doesnt really work in theme parks, because everyone is supposed to be this hero that needs to go to war with some other faction. 

If I am a farmer with a pitchfork am I really expected to go toe to toe with a guy that has been waging war for decades, I dont know, this is what theme parks tell me, that with my grey armor and grey weapon and no experience whatsoever I am some sort of hero, and that I should go and kill anyone I see that isnt part of my faction. And if they one shot me its unfair, i am the hero after all. Let players decide their own wars and their own factions.