Some people will say it's any game where you can buy items not found via other means. Personnaly, my definition is...

"Any game with "pvp" that allows you to buy items with real world currency, that give an advantage not otherwise possible to obtain through other non absurdly difficult methods or means."

Does not apply to "pve only" games, unless the game is otherwise impossible (or nearly so) to complete without cash shop items.

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Fiesta was a P2W.  It got me for $40 in the 1st month before I realized I would be spending less in Los Vegas, Nevada.  In my defense I was green and did not know such things exist.  Yeah, I'm a bit slow.

Lol i used to play fiesta that game is the definition of pay to win in the most pure form.Cash shop on it outright sell power... and you cannot get anything from the cash shop from normal in game means with the exception of a few limited quests and events and it is against the rules to buy cash shop items from other players and the game dosent support the trades (cash shop items are bound to you only way to give then to someone is directly gifting to their accounts). Their shops sell the following items: 50% hp/sp extenders, critical suits that more than double the max amount u can get in game, dmg/def suits, weapon skins that increase crit/dmg/aim, 50% and 20% charms, charms arethe worst of them all they last 2h and 1h respectivily and can be stacked by using both charms u increase a chars def/attack by 70% the other features i listed last 1day 7 day or 30 day depending on the time you buy.Basically the game is made in a sense that a regular player would never stand a chance against a cash shopper and everything on the cash shop is time limited so your forced to keep buying it as long as u play to have that "edge".

Originally posted by nomss

I know it stands for pay 2 win, but what does it really mean? I played FFXI for few years, WOW few months, SWTOR for few months, DCUO a month. But I did not see anything regarding P2W.

Any game that has a cash shop that sells upgrades for your character is pay to win. 

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by nomss

I know it stands for pay 2 win, but what does it really mean? I played FFXI for few years, WOW few months, SWTOR for few months, DCUO a month. But I did not see anything regarding P2W.

 

Any game that has a cash shop that sells upgrades for your character is pay to win. 

Eh, I would argue that on two bases.

1. If the upgrades are readily avaialable without TOO much effort in game, I wouldn't consider it P2W.
2. If the upgrades affect things that do not change your standing in relation to other players. For instance, xp boosts. If someone gets to max level a day before me, that doesn't make him king of the world. 

Originally posted by terrant

Eh, I would argue that on two bases.

 

1. If the upgrades are readily avaialable without TOO much effort in game, I wouldn't consider it P2W.
2. If the upgrades affect things that do not change your standing in relation to other players. For instance, xp boosts. If someone gets to max level a day before me, that doesn't make him king of the world. 

1.  It doesn't matter how you earn the CS item.  Someone still purchased that item from the cash shop. 

2.  P2W is a general description that describes the payment model.   It has nothing to do with the quality of items in the cash shop. 

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by nomss

I know it stands for pay 2 win, but what does it really mean? I played FFXI for few years, WOW few months, SWTOR for few months, DCUO a month. But I did not see anything regarding P2W.

 

Any game that has a cash shop that sells upgrades for your character is pay to win. 

Eh, I would argue that on two bases.

 

1. If the upgrades are readily avaialable without TOO much effort in game, I wouldn't consider it P2W.
2. If the upgrades affect things that do not change your standing in relation to other players. For instance, xp boosts. If someone gets to max level a day before me, that doesn't make him king of the world. 

Pretty sure he is talking about enhancement stones and stuff like that.Almost every single cash shop based game use enhancements as means to make money, like u can enhance ur gear to make it better but it has a chance of breaking and the shop sells something that prevents item from breaking (usually dosent guarantee sucess just takes out the risk of breaking), every game i played that offers that system it is kind of a must to use the cash shop item to upgrade ur gear or buy the upgraded stuff of other players.

Also u can argue that even on games that do not offer game inbalancing cash shop items if u can trade/sell those things to other players u can pay to win.You could simple buy lots of items/cash shop money sell to players and get best available gear in game and/or buy power lvls.

Originally posted by BigRock411

Originally posted by Kyleran

Play Runes of Magic on a PVP server, and you'll understand what P2W is all about.

Have you tried Allods?  maxing out each rune cost like $1750 and theres like 6 of them...the give flat out damage and damage reduction stats.

 

P2W games aim to get you in a spending contest...biggest wallet wins and the cap on benefits is usually insane amounts of money.  Games that are not pay to win you could spend $100 or $5000 and it would still be a fair fight (thats a lot of deco pets mounts and goofy clothes however)

That does sound pretty insane.  I recall in ROM it was about 3 months after "release", (probably a year of open beta however) there was a mage who reportedly spent eight thousand to get his gear where it was, and he was nigh unkillable except by players who were somewhat similarily guild.

I recall him standing on a rooftop one day and holding off a dozen or more same level players and they never seriously threatened him.

Worse, the players who spent this kind of cash naturally gravated to the same "red" guild and they just a general pain in the arse to deal with.

Even the "average" player trying to do the PVE content was spending roughly $640.00 per person to get their basic set to run the content at that time.

Now that was several years ago, so no idea if they turned some of this around these days.

I have a related question, what is a cash shop? I don't know of a single Sub mmo (some examples WoW, Rift, Tera, TSW, WAR, ToR) that doesn't offer ingame items or benefits that can not be bought or aquired ingame for the exchange of real money but is there a magical line of what can be offered or how much to not be called cash shop?

P2W is any game that you have to pay for your playstyle mostly combat.  Most combat playstyle gamers feel that social play style gamers should pay for combats game time.  And that Combat playstyle should be entirely free.  They say they are fine with only cosmetic items being for sale in the cash shop.  Thing is they don't use cosmetics.  You know who uses cosmetics?  Not Combat playstyle gamers.

It is to be expected that each and every playstyle be expected to pay for their game time.  So each and every playstyle shall be represented in the cash shop.  Not just 1 or 2.  They will argue that it clearly says free to play.  Well it doesn't say free to win, does it?

What is P2W?  It means Pay To Play.  And the gamers who use it Don't want to pay.  If you ever see P2W used in a thread respond with.

"Pay To Play, like everyone else or STFU."

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by BigRock411

Originally posted by Kyleran

Play Runes of Magic on a PVP server, and you'll understand what P2W is all about.

Have you tried Allods?  maxing out each rune cost like $1750 and theres like 6 of them...the give flat out damage and damage reduction stats.

 

P2W games aim to get you in a spending contest...biggest wallet wins and the cap on benefits is usually insane amounts of money.  Games that are not pay to win you could spend $100 or $5000 and it would still be a fair fight (thats a lot of deco pets mounts and goofy clothes however)

That does sound pretty insane.  I recall in ROM it was about 3 months after "release", (probably a year of open beta however) there was a mage who reportedly spent eight thousand to get his gear where it was, and he was nigh unkillable except by players who were somewhat similarily guild.

I recall him standing on a rooftop one day and holding off a dozen or more same level players and they never seriously threatened him.

Worse, the players who spent this kind of cash naturally gravated to the same "red" guild and they just a general pain in the arse to deal with.

Even the "average" player trying to do the PVE content was spending roughly $640.00 per person to get their basic set to run the content at that time.

Now that was several years ago, so no idea if they turned some of this around these days.

 

This quote was taken from a thread on imbalance in a classless system.  But I think it works here as well.

Originally posted by ShadowedMare

And so what if some players are more powerful, people should be rewarded if their choice of strategy is a winning one.

Originally posted by dlld

I have a related question, what is a cash shop? I don't know of a single Sub mmo (some examples WoW, Rift, Tera, TSW, WAR, ToR) that doesn't offer ingame items or benefits that can not be bought or aquired ingame for the exchange of real money but is there a magical line of what can be offered or how much to not be called cash shop?

that magical line is personal

- some gamers have zero tolerance for cash shop and sub game

- some gamers tolerate mounts

- some gamers tolerate experience potions

etc

Download All Point Bulletin-Reloaded.. Its the latest western game i have played that went from primarily sub based to pay to win. In it you could drop $50-$60 dollars on just one weapon that had maxed out enhancements/weapon mods. That was 3-4 times what a month sub used to cost. The first few weeks after re-launch people who spent hundreds on the cash shop were owning all the boards as far as player ranking went.

P2W is when you can increase your character's power through real money transactions.

Such as paying $5 to upgrade your longsword+1 to a longsword+2, rather than finding a longsword+2 by going into the Dungeon of Despair.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by nomss

I know it stands for pay 2 win, but what does it really mean? I played FFXI for few years, WOW few months, SWTOR for few months, DCUO a month. But I did not see anything regarding P2W.

Best example would be Allods.

Pay 2 Win basically means a game in which you are required to buy things from the cash shop in order to play a game on a comparable level with people who use the cash shop. In Allods the game seems pretty legit F2P game. Until you hit about lvl 20, and start going to the open pvp zones for your quests. You'll find the other free players about on par with you in terms of skill & difficulty. Then comes along a guy w/ cash shop gear, and you get 1-2 shotted in a second. Perfect example of P2W right there.

Is this true? Allods is Pay2Win? I just started a Gibberling character and am having a bundle of fun in the game. I'm not a PvPer nor plan to ever be. Is Allods only P2W for PvPers? Or are you required to buy cash shop items if you solely do PvE?

On the main subject (note: have not read the rest of thread yet):

One problem I could see cropping up is if certain cash shop games become known for solely selling fluff items (like costumes or pets or mounts that have zero impact on the game) then a disproportionate number of non-paying supporters would flock to those games thus hastening the game's demise.

No MMO - Asian or Western - wants to have a top-heavy userbase of freeloaders despite the moniker of F2P. Those people who use cash shops are the ones keeping the game around for everyone to play in. I don't know that that is what will happen. I'm saying that it *could* happen. And since it could then MMO Publishers would need to consider that and try to not incentivive a playerbase heavy on game-mooching.

One of my pet-peeves are games that have punitive "F2P" terms or are just what used to be known as demo's or trial accounts but are now riding on the popularity of the F2P term. Companies like Sony (hate how they implement their "F2P" model on all their MMOs) or EA or Turbine..

Edit:

Originally posted by Kazuhiro

Some people will say it's any game where you can buy items not found via other means. Personnaly, my definition is...

"Any game with "pvp" that allows you to buy items with real world currency, that give an advantage not otherwise possible to obtain through other non absurdly difficult methods or means."

Does not apply to "pve only" games, unless the game is otherwise impossible (or nearly so) to complete without cash shop items.

The above post agrees with what I always understood P2W to mean.

It just stands for a game, usually free to play, that sells a distinct advantage in the virtual goods store.  The most obvious example of this would be games selling powerful equipment, enhancements, etc. in the cash shop.  I guess a lesser but familiar example would be DCUO selling DLC packs that contain the most powerful abilities in the game that are otherwise unobtainable.  I mean, Pay 2 Win is self expanatory.

Are you rich?  Do you have more money than you know what to do with?  Would you like to spend it on something besides hookers for a change?  Well, come play Generica Online!  Generica Online features the most comprehensive cash shop to date, with an explosive sale on +99 Equipment and Instant Level Boosters currently in progress!

Usually people end up spending thousands of dollars on these games to reach the Top 100 list that they have plastered all over the homepage.  I actually saw a guy post his charge balance on a P2W game forum that totaled up to $28,000 over the past year.  A good way to spot these games is to look for free to play games that have nothing but cash shop updates and sales displayed on the front page.

Originally posted by Konfess

P2W is any game that you have to pay for your playstyle mostly combat.  Most combat playstyle gamers feel that social play style gamers should pay for combats game time.  And that Combat playstyle should be entirely free.  They say they are fine with only cosmetic items being for sale in the cash shop.  Thing is they don't use cosmetics.  You know who uses cosmetics?  Not Combat playstyle gamers.

It is to be expected that each and every playstyle be expected to pay for their game time.  So each and every playstyle shall be represented in the cash shop.  Not just 1 or 2.  They will argue that it clearly says free to play.  Well it doesn't say free to win, does it?

What is P2W?  It means Pay To Play.  And the gamers who use it Don't want to pay.  If you ever see P2W used in a thread respond with.

"Pay To Play, like everyone else or STFU."

Wow. I had not considered this line of logic. This guy is spot on! It gets back to what I was talking about. No game wants to attract a player base that's heavy with freeloaders - which is what I suspect the preponderence of PvPers would choose to do since their play-preference gets zero benefit from fluff items.

Why should PvE-preferring players like me subsidize the playing of PvPers?

Shouldn't both preferences want to support the game with their money - if only for enlightened self-interest? To keep the game going longer for more content, events, new alts to roll, etc?

Konfess - you just went on my list of *Poster's to Watch for*

Originally posted by SereneBlue

Originally posted by Kazuhiro

Some people will say it's any game where you can buy items not found via other means. Personnaly, my definition is...

"Any game with "pvp" that allows you to buy items with real world currency, that give an advantage not otherwise possible to obtain through other non absurdly difficult methods or means."

Does not apply to "pve only" games, unless the game is otherwise impossible (or nearly so) to complete without cash shop items.

The above post agrees with what I always understood P2W to mean.

Same here. Around here, though, it's thrown around as a way to negatively label a free to play game that the poster doesn't like, regardless of what can be purchased or obtained through normal gameplay.

It is also worth to notice that not all Pay-2-Win games are actually bad games, or not worthy of playing by a person who doesn't want to pay.

For example, World of Tanks is classical Pay-2-Win, if you check the definitions. You can buy ammo there for cash only which gives advantage to you, compared to free players. You can buy "premium tanks", etc. Why would anyone play it, you ask?

Well, I can answer only for myself. The advantages of such ammo is so pathetically small in any given game, compared to skill and teamwork, that it is completely lost in any "standard" (random or squad) battle. I'm playing without ammo, and I was never, ever bested by a "vallet warrior". 

Premium tanks. You can buy tanks for cash you can't buy for in-game currency... But here is the problem: they suck. Well, no. They don't suck. They simply aren't any better than any other tank of comparable level - they are actually always worse. Like, for example, KV-5 which has huge armor and hit points, but weak gun. Lowe which has good, precise gun, and paper-thin armor. Both are hellishly slow. Oh, there is T-59, which has slower speed, thinner armor, weaker cannon than other tanks of the similar level... but still good enough (it's just slightly below average in everything, has good armor angles, prone to cause ricochets, and therevore versatile ) to be seen by some as "overpowered". And guess what - it was remover from the cash shop, precisely because it was seen as overpowered...

Additionally, they are balanced in such a way that a premium tank on one side is balanced by a premium tank on anohter. Generally, the only real advantage premium tanks give is that they give more in-game currency per battle than normal tanks. It's good enough advantage for some people to buy it; I have bought Lowe, and not planning on buying any premium tanks ever again.

Now, we return to ammo. There is one part of the game, where cash ammo is a must have. Clan Wars are such a narrow and sharp battles, with all participants being on a so high skill level, command play on a high level (good squad commanders with voice connection is a must, squad training is a must, etc), and stakes so high (in game terms, of course) that even a meagre advantage is a must. Therefore, I always bought cash ammo for my cland wars. Generally, a night of hard clan battles usually makes me to spend between $0.1 and $0.5 in total, in cash. I have always enough ammo for Clan wars, and yet never spent more than $10 per month. Usually I spend a lot less; when I'm not playing in a clan (that's an intense gaming, I can't spend so much time for it), I don't spend anything at all and just play the game for pleasure.

Beyond that $10 or so a month, the law of diminishing returns starts to play. You can spend $1000 a night, but it will not bring you a noticeable advantage against me with my $0.3/night... 

Now, that's a P2W game I'm happy to be a part of. (Disclaimer: the prices are valid for Russian servers; I'm not sure how much Ammo costs in the NA servers, although it seems prices in the NA servers are 30% higher than in Russian servers. Considering the difference of spending powers of both countries, I'd say it's a bargain...)

Originally posted by SereneBlue

Originally posted by Konfess

P2W is any game that you have to pay for your playstyle mostly combat.  Most combat playstyle gamers feel that social play style gamers should pay for combats game time.  And that Combat playstyle should be entirely free.  They say they are fine with only cosmetic items being for sale in the cash shop.  Thing is they don't use cosmetics.  You know who uses cosmetics?  Not Combat playstyle gamers.

It is to be expected that each and every playstyle be expected to pay for their game time.  So each and every playstyle shall be represented in the cash shop.  Not just 1 or 2.  They will argue that it clearly says free to play.  Well it doesn't say free to win, does it?

What is P2W?  It means Pay To Play.  And the gamers who use it Don't want to pay.  If you ever see P2W used in a thread respond with.

"Pay To Play, like everyone else or STFU."

 

Wow. I had not considered this line of logic. This guy is spot on! It gets back to what I was talking about. No game wants to attract a player base that's heavy with freeloaders - which is what I suspect the preponderence of PvPers would choose to do since their play-preference gets zero benefit from fluff items.

Why should PvE-preferring players like me subsidize the playing of PvPers?

Shouldn't both preferences want to support the game with their money - if only for enlightened self-interest? To keep the game going longer for more content, events, new alts to roll, etc?

 

Konfess - you just went on my list of *Poster's to Watch for*

That doesn't make any sense to me.

You're making it sound like it's almost an ethical issue... like it is unethical to play a F2P game for free while knowing that others are paying to play it. But there's no "understanding" that I should pay some money if I'm going to keep playing the game. If I go to a bar or whatever to watch a sports event for free, there may or may not be a policy in place that says I have to order something if I'm going to stay there for hours watching their pay-per-view. Even if there is no policy, there's an understanding that most people should do that.

With F2P games, there is no such expectation. The company providing the game does not begrudge the existence of nonpaying customers. Without them, the game would hardly exist at all. You couldn't find a single F2P publisher out there who would agree with the statement "If 1000 more players signed up for our game and none of them bought anything, that would be a very bad thing."

The other reason it doesn't make sense is that competition between players ought to be fair. Combat playstyle gamers (to use your term) would naturally shy away from games featuring unfair competition. Can you really say that players who prefer competitive play should want the cash shop to have P2W items that grant an advantage, so that they can support the game with their money? Doing so ruins the integrity of the competition by giving some players more advantage than others. It's also completely unnecessary, because even people who are purely interested in gameplay can still spend money on cosmetic items to support the game. And if the game really truly wants ALL players to support the game without freeloading... SURPRISE! That's what P2P is for. If they expect all players to pay, then they need to charge them money to play.

Pay to win has t obe taken on a game by game or case by case evaluation. Each game is different and companies are coming up with new ways to earn reveniew all the time.  It also depends on the goals of the playerbase. In old City of Heroes, I remember lining all the noobs up and sponsoring Costume Contests for best character design. In this case, frill and fluff is P2W. But that more of an exception.

In PVE, you are in a group as a non spender, you might die more often, If you use pets, your pets will be inferior, You will rank lower in damage done etc. Examples of P2W in PVP are pretty self explanatory.

Games that allow for currency exchange walk a fine line. If you can translate real cash to "gold" then to better gear, that's P2W.

P2W is like this. You can spend real life money to have a better overall game experience than players who don't spend or who spend less. But I also see it that that better game experience has to be done in such a way that it establishes the fact that you are better. Or simply put,  "In the face" of the non spender to make them aware they re deficient. Sure you can have a better overall experience than a non spender, but if it's not obvious to him that he is lacking next to the spender, then it's not P2W.