Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by kjempff

What a completely horrible idea, all games I have seen incorporating controllers become tedious and slow to operate (ex: latest Final Fantasy).

Some games are great with game controllers, like .. car games and .. err are there any others ? but completely useless for any game using a cursor which would be ALL mmorpgs ALL rts ALL 1st person shooters and so on.

The mouse is accurate and fast and only require one hand, the keyboard has enough buttons for all keybinds you desire and together these two are far superior to game controllers. The only thing a game controller has that mouse+keybord doesnt are analogue controls.

Blend your controller and bin your console and take a step up.

I'm not talking about directly comparing a controller. I even said that a mouse is more precise than an anlog... that can't be disputed. I'm saying that analog give you more control than WASD.

But no one just uses WASD for moviement. If that is all you are using no wonder you think the keyboard/mouse movement is sub optimal

Yeah, a mouse makes WASD better, but I don't think that adding analog control would take the functionality of the mouse away. Analog would just be there as a bonus, for when you need it... like for jumping puzzles.

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

That gets you nowhere, as you're still only able to either strafe or turn, and not both at the same time.  Never mind precision.  Having six keys on a keyboard makes entire classes of movements possible that you can't do with a thumbstick alone.

Any basic keyboard has access to 25 easy to reach keys with at least 3 modifiers. 75 keybinds that take less than an eigth of a second to press. As far as control of your character, that sounds like a personal problem.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

That gets you nowhere, as you're still only able to either strafe or turn, and not both at the same time.  Never mind precision.  Having six keys on a keyboard makes entire classes of movements possible that you can't do with a thumbstick alone.

Turning seems largely redundant when you have a mouse. Turning with keys seems less effective then just another analog stick. I'm not saying that no one should use what they want. If people want to use dated controls, why not. The same can be said for controllers. If someone wants to play an FPS with a gamepad, that doesn't bother me. However, I think other oprions should become the norm as well. MMOs should have analog support; whether or not people want to take advantage of that is entirely up to them. I just want more options.

FPSs, MMOs, RTSs. No matter what computer game I play I use the same setup

Left hand - Belkin Nostromo N52 gamepad

Right hand - Logitec MX518 mouse

Keyboard for chat and some menu functions

*did Razer buy out Belkin and the Nostromo? I hate Razer, their mice suck. Had 3 crap out within a year

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by kjempff

What a completely horrible idea, all games I have seen incorporating controllers become tedious and slow to operate (ex: latest Final Fantasy).

Some games are great with game controllers, like .. car games and .. err are there any others ? but completely useless for any game using a cursor which would be ALL mmorpgs ALL rts ALL 1st person shooters and so on.

The mouse is accurate and fast and only require one hand, the keyboard has enough buttons for all keybinds you desire and together these two are far superior to game controllers. The only thing a game controller has that mouse+keybord doesnt are analogue controls.

Blend your controller and bin your console and take a step up.

I'm not talking about directly comparing a controller. I even said that a mouse is more precise than an anlog... that can't be disputed. I'm saying that analog give you more control than WASD.

But no one just uses WASD for moviement. If that is all you are using no wonder you think the keyboard/mouse movement is sub optimal

Yeah, a mouse makes WASD better, but I don't think that adding analog control would take the functionality of the mouse away. Analog would just be there as a bonus, for when you need it... like for jumping puzzles.

First, I like they way you think. The only way to get something improved is to first be discontent with it and ask, can't we do better.

However, they keyboard is a blank slate, it has the A-Z keys that most people know where they are placed, It has the Shift, ALT, CTRL keys that are easily reached by the left hand, it has the 1-0 number keys and the F keys.

Add in a mouse with more than two buttons and the system becomes even more versitile.

Both the game companies and in many games, the players can then map out the keys to fit the games needs. Your key map   for one game may in fact be different from one game to the next depending on it's needs.

The ability to use it as a blank slate and program the keys how you want is what makes it  so versitile as a game controller, 

So even though you feel you can get slightly better movement from an analog, I don't see the Analog making up for everything else so well that, overall it would be better than a keyboard.

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by blognorg

I'll say this again... I'm not comparing K&B to contollers. I'm talking specifically about keyboards four-button fuctionality for movement. Just because people are used to it, doesn't make it better. Analogs are objectively better. There is variance in the magnitude and more than eight directions. If someone can't utilize those features, that it doesn't make it inferior.

Keyboard lets you go in an exact direction at an exact speed.  That makes it pretty easy to make precise, delicate movements of the sort that are completely impossible with a thumbstick.  The latter only lets you go kind of close to where you wanted to go.

Microsoft originally intended to make Xbox live allow console players to play against PC players.  They found that good PC players completely slaughtered even the best console players, as thumbsticks aren't nearly as effective as keyboard and mouse.  That led Microsoft to abandon the cross-platform effort, in order to protect console players from PC players.  Console players may accept that a game has awkward controls that gimp everyone, but PC players will never accept that.

I read about that. It was because of Halo... and it had to do with the precision of a mouse, not movement. Not being able to properly use an analog stick doesn't make it inferior WASD. Similarly, I can't draw, so a bunch of fancy pencils would only make things harder for me. I know several people that don't like to use a mouse for FPSs, but it doesn't make analog sticks any more accurate.

If you're comparing a gamepad to a keyboard with no mouse, then the gamepad will sometimes win.  Then again, no one would use the keyboard with no mouse unless the game worked very well with two hands on the keyboard.

I don't think I've ever used WASD for movement in a game, other than briefly until I figured out how to adjust the controls.  If I'm going to use the keyboard for movement, then the 10-key section is by far the most comfortable.

The best movement controls that I've used is the sliding direction pad on the NES Max.  The downside of that is that it means one hand can't do much--and in particular, can't strafe in addition to moving.  That's fine in some isometric overhead or side scrolling games (such as nearly every NES game ever made), but doesn't work for a camera that follows you from behind.

The NES Max controls weren't analog, but I'd expect that the same basic design could be made analog.  That would surely be a lot more comfortable to use than the awkward thumbsticks that have become so ubiquitous.

Strafing could be solved like in Metroid Prime. They just designed it so that all you had to do was hold a button to strafe, but I'm sure the opposite could be done (holding a button to turn, with the default being strafing). I'm not saying the the keyboard is useless... it obviously works. I just think it's silly that, as a humans (who have put people on the moon, and figured out quantam mechanics), we haven't designed a better game stadard for PCs. That's all.

That gets you nowhere, as you're still only able to either strafe or turn, and not both at the same time.  Never mind precision.  Having six keys on a keyboard makes entire classes of movements possible that you can't do with a thumbstick alone.

Turning seems largely redundant when you have a mouse. Turning with keys seems less effective then just another analog stick. I'm not saying that no one should use what they want. If people want to use dated controls, why not. The same can be said for controllers. If someone wants to play an FPS with a gamepad, that doesn't bother me. However, I think other oprions should become the norm as well. MMOs should have analog support; whether or not people want to take advantage of that is entirely up to them. I just want more options.

Unless, of course, the reason you need the mouse is so that you can click on things.  Like in, oh, every single game ever made where you use a mouse.

You also raise the dilemma that, if you're using both hands for movement on analog controls, that doesn't leave a whole lot of buttons available to do anything else.  You can have several buttons, perhaps, but you can't move either hand off of the analog controls to reach for buttons.  In many games, that's a complete non-starter.

I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

Originally posted by kjempff

I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

Nah, I don't think so.  Too much movement.  Hard to hunker down for 10 straight hours of gaming when you have to jump around like a retard just to play LOL.

Originally posted by kjempff

I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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Originally posted by kjempff I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

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Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.

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Everyone *thinks* they want the interface from Minority Report, but nobody really questions how long they can flail their arms about until they get tired. Work productivity goes down, game times get shorter.

The keyboard IS the ultimate interface, because it could be argued that it takes even less effort than talking.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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Originally posted by kjempff I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

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Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.

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I think Kinect gesture style control is a "never" for general use. Even in games where the interface isn't awful, it's limited. Maybe with a combination of a controller and gesture recognition, but the gesture recognition by itself isn't nearly multifunctional enough.

 

Gesture recognition strikes me as the sort of thing that could be made to work right with moderately clever programming plus a ton of processing power.  And it might be possible to make it work right with extremely clever programming plus more modest amounts of processing power--such as what is available today in a relatively powerful desktop, especially with GPU compute capabilities.

Making it work right isn't the only hurdle, of course.  But if it can monitor you precisely, then that opens up the possibility of controlling games with small hand gestures rather than wild motions.  It also opens up the possibility of subtle differences in movements having important gameplay effects.  There's a huge difference between a baseball game that can only tell whether you swung a bat or not, and one that can tell that you swung it just so high, at just such an angle, with the barrel of the bat going just so far off the plate.  The former is a stupid gimmick, but the latter opens up new possibilities.

But when the movement detection technology matures, it will probably be able to view you hand as a mouse and with the same precision, same for a keyboard. I mean it does not have to be standing in a room waving your hands :) Or possible some new way we havent thought of yet. Like a mmorpg where you have to do real fingerwriggling to cast a spell correctly ?

ps. Eye movement tracking is also a movement detection tech ;)

Originally posted by Quizzical

Unless, of course, the reason you need the mouse is so that you can click on things.  Like in, oh, every single game ever made where you use a mouse.

You also raise the dilemma that, if you're using both hands for movement on analog controls, that doesn't leave a whole lot of buttons available to do anything else.  You can have several buttons, perhaps, but you can't move either hand off of the analog controls to reach for buttons.  In many games, that's a complete non-starter.

I thought you were suggesting that you use two hands for the keyboard, like some people do. Hence the need for turning with keys. I never suggested using an analog instead of a mouse. I guess that still raises the qustion of why you'd need to keys to turn if you have a mouse of an analog. Either way, I'm not saying you can't play how you want, but more MMOs should have analog suuport so that others can play the way they want. I imagine eventually, something will come out that will blow away all of our curent interface devices, and I welcome that day. Or... perhaps that day is already upon us. HAIL KINECT!!

EDIT: I originally typed this before I read all of the Kinect commens. That's funny. I gues we're all on the same wavelength.

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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Originally posted by kjempff I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

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Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.

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I think Kinect gesture style control is a "never" for general use. Even in games where the interface isn't awful, it's limited. Maybe with a combination of a controller and gesture recognition, but the gesture recognition by itself isn't nearly multifunctional enough.  

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Gesture recognition strikes me as the sort of thing that could be made to work right with moderately clever programming plus a ton of processing power.  And it might be possible to make it work right with extremely clever programming plus more modest amounts of processing power--such as what is available today in a relatively powerful desktop, especially with GPU compute capabilities.

Making it work right isn't the only hurdle, of course.  But if it can monitor you precisely, then that opens up the possibility of controlling games with small hand gestures rather than wild motions.  It also opens up the possibility of subtle differences in movements having important gameplay effects.  There's a huge difference between a baseball game that can only tell whether you swung a bat or not, and one that can tell that you swung it just so high, at just such an angle, with the barrel of the bat going just so far off the plate.  The former is a stupid gimmick, but the latter opens up new possibilities.

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Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by Quizzical

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Originally posted by kjempff I think the future is kinect type of controllers anyways, but the keyboard will still be there just as a non physical unit.

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Certainly not the near future.  It took what, about 30 years between the invention of the mouse, and the invention of the mouse that actually works right?  A Kinect type controller could conceivably get there eventually, but it's going to take a while.

---

I think Kinect gesture style control is a "never" for general use. Even in games where the interface isn't awful, it's limited. Maybe with a combination of a controller and gesture recognition, but the gesture recognition by itself isn't nearly multifunctional enough.  

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Gesture recognition strikes me as the sort of thing that could be made to work right with moderately clever programming plus a ton of processing power.  And it might be possible to make it work right with extremely clever programming plus more modest amounts of processing power--such as what is available today in a relatively powerful desktop, especially with GPU compute capabilities.

 

Making it work right isn't the only hurdle, of course.  But if it can monitor you precisely, then that opens up the possibility of controlling games with small hand gestures rather than wild motions.  It also opens up the possibility of subtle differences in movements having important gameplay effects.  There's a huge difference between a baseball game that can only tell whether you swung a bat or not, and one that can tell that you swung it just so high, at just such an angle, with the barrel of the bat going just so far off the plate.  The former is a stupid gimmick, but the latter opens up new possibilities.

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It's missing tactile feedback. Our hands are capable of really precise movements, where in the space of a 6" x 12" rectangle we can complete hundreds of unique gestures. It's only possible because of the tactile feedback from they keyboard. With a controller you can get up to nearly a hundred unique gestures if you chord buttons together.

There are already products that will read what your individual fingers are doing (the Leap), but without that tactile feedback, your hands lose the ability to do all those precise gestures in a very small space. For instance, it would be harder to type using gestures than using a tablet...and it's already harder to type using a tablet than using a keyboard because of the loss of keyboard tactile feedback.

 

A lot depends on the game.  Are we going to have a Kinect-type system replace keyboards for typing on forums like this?  Of course not.  Even if they can make a Kinect-type controller work flawlessly, there will be many games for which a keyboard, mouse, and/or gamepad remains superior.

But imagine a baseball game that comes with a plastic "home plate" and bat.  To bat in the game, you watch the incoming pitch on the screen, and then swing the bat at it.  Imagine having a game be able to tell not merely when you swung, but whether you swung too high or too low, too far inside or outside, and a hard swing, check swing, or bunt.  Swing an inch too hit and you smack the ball into the dirt.  Swing an inch too low and you get a pop fly.  Slightly too early or too late and it's a foul ball.

That sort of thing opens up new possibilities.  Again, it's not something that every game will do.  But it could be important in quite a few.

I bought a splittable keyboard that has two halves which can be angled, so that it forms a shallow V shape.   it helped a lot.   As for controllers, until they come out with one that I can completely control with my mind, I will continue to hate every controller in existence (for my use, not others).  

I've been able to type for over 30 years and I'm never giving up on my QWERTY.

Have already had arguments w/ friends on this one.  Long live the keyboard!

Oh and you can kill someone and then text smack too.  Or die and text smack.