I have to be honest, as much as I am a fan of GW2, I think that this elitist attitude and epeen stroking has to end. The game is not going to scare away less skilled players. ArenaNet is not that dumb.

The game has many ways of enjoying it at different skill levels. You have your dynamic events PvE, which anyone can enjoy, regardless of ability. There is also WvW, which can be enjoyed at any skill level, especially if you move with a large zerg. You also have crafting, exploring, puzzle solving and jump puzzles, all of which can be enjoyed by anyone with minimal twitch skills and MMO experience.

Then you have the stuff that is geared towards the more skilled players: explorer mode dungeons and structured PvP, predominantly, but also smaller groups in WvW and to a lesser extent story mode dungeons.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

 http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/brawn-vs-brains/

Very good article.

"Your progression is dictated by your personal improvement, not by obtaining a new helmet that grants you +30 to Pwnage."

The author also talks about why some less skilled gamers may not like the skill based approach of GW2, where you can't compensate your bad gameplay with more powerful gear.

Another good quote: "Instead of needing to farm gear in order to the play the game, Guild Wars 2 allows you to simply play the game."

Where's my like button?! 

Anyways, we've seen in these very forums already how some of the community is receiving this gameplay style. The people who've actually tried it are usually 99% on board, the rest of the people I would suspect are the people who A: don't like the cash shop (even tho there's nothing wrong with the system Eve is using) B: don't like that armor won't be their saving grace anymore in PVE or PVP or C: just plain don't know how to react to not having to pay a subscription to play a game.

Originally posted by heartless

I have to be honest, as much as I am a fan of GW2, I think that this elitist attitude and epeen stroking has to end. The game is not going to scare away less skilled players.

Meh. Raider elitism will just get replaced by PvP elitism, which isn't any better.

At least now you can beat up all the thrashtalkers.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by heartless

I have to be honest, as much as I am a fan of GW2, I think that this elitist attitude and epeen stroking has to end. The game is not going to scare away less skilled players.

Meh. Raider elitism will just get replaced by PvP elitism, which isn't any better.

At least now you can beat up all the thrashtalkers.

Those are probably going to stay in sPvP and they are welcome to it. I was never a huge fan of battlegrounds or arenas anyways.

Originally posted by OldManFunk

It's kind of funny how they talk about players not being good enough to do well and how that might discourage them from playing and getting better.

 

Can you imagine how awful a game would have to be in order to allow bad players to do well? Obviously we can since there are many examples of this... but doesn't it seem a bit strange that anyone would make or want to play a game that is setup so that literally anyone can be good at it?

 

Maybe hopscotch with only one square and it doesn't matter if you actually land in that one square?

Jump rope where you don't actually have to jump over the rope?

Tilted pool tables?

Pong without goals?

Pac-Man without ghosts?

MMO Raiding? (Oh snap, I went there.)

I laughed so hard my dog jumped.

Originally posted by heartless

I have to be honest, as much as I am a fan of GW2, I think that this elitist attitude and epeen stroking has to end. The game is not going to scare away less skilled players. ArenaNet is not that dumb.

 

Yes and no. The gamer mentality of today is different than what it used to be. Is GW2 harder? No, but it is different, and it's something people aren't used to, which translates out to harder...at first. It's the "at first" part that's the deal breaker with said gamer mentality of today. I have no doubt many people won't bother trying to learn a new system, claim it's too hard, and either scream for nerfs or just GBTW. Mostly because that's already what I saw in the GW2 BWE forums, people bitching the game was too hard and suggesting WoW mechanics to make it easier. I lol'ed.

It used to be that when a game was hard, that just meant it was going to last the player longer. Now - partially because there are more choices in games, and partially because of other things which I won't mention lest I start a flame war as people attempt to defend their integrity (oops, went there anyway) - when something is hard, people just bash the game on a forum then go play something else. Which is fine, don't need them in the game anyway; it doesn't need to be as successful as WoW, it just needs to be successful enough to live and grow, which it already is.

i will suck at pvp, but i will love skill based combat over gear based combat.. oh yes. If i want to keep grinding gears to be a good player i go back to WoW. GW2 is totally a fresh air :)

Originally posted by Mephster

GW2 has only 5 weapon skills per bar, how skillful can one be with so little skills available to them. I'm sorry but the learning curve for this game is very low. If you can't figure out how to use those skills limited skills to the best of your ability then I can't see how skill will determine how well you do. It isn't difficult to figure it out.

Firing a rifle has only one 'skill per bar' and yet it involves a great deal of skill to use well in the real world.

There is more skill in how you use limited resources to best effect in overcoming an obstacle than in having a hundred skills that between them cover every possible situation.

Originally posted by thexrated

The common mantra associated with GW2 that says, "With this game, you can just have fun", is based on personal preferences of a certain type of gamers. How people have fun is very subjective, for example, one of the reasons I like MMORPGs is because I can improve my characters over time. I am certain that many play MMORPGs for that reason. If I want to play more skill focused game, I would play FPS or RTS etc., or a hybrid MMORPG that combines theorycrafting, personal skill and improving your character overtime.

Even the title of this thread tries to be demeaning towards people who enjoy improving their characters, trying to postulate that it is somehow inferior to those who think that they are akin to the korean micro-management gods. Sorry, but improving your character has always been a major feature in RPGs. If you want to compete in PvP, like in WoW, you will have the best class, the best build and the best gear to do it. In other words, it requires effort. You will still need personal skill and lots of practise to compete for the top spots. GW2 really just removes gear from consideration (aka improving your character over time). You still need the best class and the best build and lots of personal skill and practise.

All the above in mind, the PvE game of GW2 is probably not going to have much longevity for some players. I probably play a character through it once and do some of the harder stuff, but I am not interested in cosmetic improvements. I like to optimize my character for  various tasks and I get bored rather quick, if there is no way to accomplish it.

 Careful.  Your post risks erecting the Monolith before which the Apes may begin to reason.

Originally posted by heartless

Those are probably going to stay in sPvP and they are welcome to it. I was never a huge fan of battlegrounds or arenas anyways.

Well, I do plan to get involved in sPvP, and I was never a fan of that language. I guess it can't be any worse than LoL and HoN, though. :/

You will see them prance around saying how PvE is lame often enough, don't worry... these kinds of people never keep to themselves.

Originally posted by Uproar

Originally posted by thexrated

The common mantra associated with GW2 that says, "With this game, you can just have fun", is based on personal preferences of a certain type of gamers. How people have fun is very subjective, for example, one of the reasons I like MMORPGs is because I can improve my characters over time. I am certain that many play MMORPGs for that reason. If I want to play more skill focused game, I would play FPS or RTS etc., or a hybrid MMORPG that combines theorycrafting, personal skill and improving your character overtime.

Even the title of this thread tries to be demeaning towards people who enjoy improving their characters, trying to postulate that it is somehow inferior to those who think that they are akin to the korean micro-management gods. Sorry, but improving your character has always been a major feature in RPGs. If you want to compete in PvP, like in WoW, you will have the best class, the best build and the best gear to do it. In other words, it requires effort. You will still need personal skill and lots of practise to compete for the top spots. GW2 really just removes gear from consideration (aka improving your character over time). You still need the best class and the best build and lots of personal skill and practise.

All the above in mind, the PvE game of GW2 is probably not going to have much longevity for some players. I probably play a character through it once and do some of the harder stuff, but I am not interested in cosmetic improvements. I like to optimize my character for  various tasks and I get bored rather quick, if there is no way to accomplish it.

 Careful.  Your post risks erecting the Monolith before which the Apes may begin to reason.

Not quite, you both missed the point. "Just have fun" is an allegory to removing common barriers of entry, such as loot, that's been the plague of MMOs. It wasn't actually about whether or not a particular person finds it fun, rather that GW2 skips the crap and gets right to the meat of the gameplay. 

I know people go looking for flame bait, but stop taking everything so literal.

Originally posted by Mephster

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Mephster

GW2 has only 5 weapon skills per bar, how skillful can one be with so little skills available to them. I'm sorry but the learning curve for this game is very low. If you can't figure out how to use those skills limited skills to the best of your ability then I can't see how skill will determine how well you do. It isn't difficult to figure it out.

There is ~15 to 20 skills that you can actively use on 7/8 classes. The engineer can use up to ~40-45.

 

For instance, An Elemetalist equips a weapon and has access to 20 weapon skills as well as a heal skill, 3 utility skills and an elite skill. For them it is 25 unique active skills through the use of 1 weapon, all of which can be switched out for 30+ different unique active skills.

 

For another instance, a Mesmer can use two weapon sets that gives them access to 10 skills. They also also have 1 heal, 3 utility and 1 elite. On top of that, they have 4 class skills. That is 19 unique active skills, 15 of which can be switched out for over 30 different skills.

 

So no, there are not on'y 5 weapon skills per bar. Hopefully this helps you.

Swapping weapons but still at any time in the game you only get to use 5 weapon skills at a time. It isn't difficult! Yeah tons of skill right there.

Right, so, how about you and I meet up in PvP.  I'll bring my two weapon sets and you can focus on your "only 5 weapon skills at a time".  Won't you be surprised when I attack you from afar, then when you get close enough to me (assuming you remember to dodge - hey another skill! - and I don't kill you first with my 5 lame ranged skills), I'll swap my weapons real quick and nail you with some good melee, then dodge heal dodge, open up with my ranged again and finish you off will some good melee again.  All with "only 5 weapon skills at a time".

And that's just one way to do it.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by heartless

I have to be honest, as much as I am a fan of GW2, I think that this elitist attitude and epeen stroking has to end. The game is not going to scare away less skilled players.

Meh. Raider elitism will just get replaced by PvP elitism, which isn't any better.

At least now you can beat up all the thrashtalkers.

Those are probably going to stay in sPvP and they are welcome to it. I was never a huge fan of battlegrounds or arenas anyways.

Me either, but WvWvW is so much fun!!!!  :)

Honestly, I hope it doesn't scare away less skilled players.  I hope that people will find it fun enough and intuitive enough to want to continually get better at playing.  That's what I plan to do.

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Mephster

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Mephster

GW2 has only 5 weapon skills per bar, how skillful can one be with so little skills available to them. I'm sorry but the learning curve for this game is very low. If you can't figure out how to use those skills limited skills to the best of your ability then I can't see how skill will determine how well you do. It isn't difficult to figure it out.

There is ~15 to 20 skills that you can actively use on 7/8 classes. The engineer can use up to ~40-45.

 

For instance, An Elemetalist equips a weapon and has access to 20 weapon skills as well as a heal skill, 3 utility skills and an elite skill. For them it is 25 unique active skills through the use of 1 weapon, all of which can be switched out for 30+ different unique active skills.

 

For another instance, a Mesmer can use two weapon sets that gives them access to 10 skills. They also also have 1 heal, 3 utility and 1 elite. On top of that, they have 4 class skills. That is 19 unique active skills, 15 of which can be switched out for over 30 different skills.

 

So no, there are not on'y 5 weapon skills per bar. Hopefully this helps you.

Swapping weapons but still at any time in the game you only get to use 5 weapon skills at a time. It isn't difficult! Yeah tons of skill right there.

Right, so, how about you and I meet up in PvP.  I'll bring my two weapon sets and you can focus on your "only 5 weapon skills at a time".  Won't you be surprised when I attack you from afar, then when you get close enough to me (assuming you remember to dodge - hey another skill! - and I don't kill you first with my 5 lame ranged skills), I'll swap my weapons real quick and nail you with some good melee, then dodge heal dodge, open up with my ranged again and finish you off will some good melee again.  All with "only 5 weapon skills at a time".

 

And that's just one way to do it.

lol. just block that guy. just dont answer him. is obvious from is post history he is just a troll, is uncredible how a guy can post so much false information and not get banned. seriously, every post i saw from this guy was just crap, he dont know anything about game, go check is post history and you will smile...A LOT, than block him as i did. 

btw, i want to see a guy not swap weapon or atunements on sPvP, must be a great player indeed. you cant see mesphster because is clear never play the game, or he play the game and just want give false information. 

the best part is in mesphster opinion:

GW2 = only 5 skills on bar  game suck, dont have much tactic

skyrim = best game ever, yap, because that game have lot of skills on bar.... LOOOOOOL

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by heartless

I have to be honest, as much as I am a fan of GW2, I think that this elitist attitude and epeen stroking has to end. The game is not going to scare away less skilled players.

Meh. Raider elitism will just get replaced by PvP elitism, which isn't any better.

At least now you can beat up all the thrashtalkers.

Those are probably going to stay in sPvP and they are welcome to it. I was never a huge fan of battlegrounds or arenas anyways.

Me either, but WvWvW is so much fun!!!!  :)

 

Honestly, I hope it doesn't scare away less skilled players.  I hope that people will find it fun enough and intuitive enough to want to continually get better at playing.  That's what I plan to do.

Contrary to what a few elitists think, I doubt that it will. GW2 accomodates multiple preferences and players of varying ability levels.

Besides, the game play is familiar enough to allow for easy transation from your typical MMO to a more action oriented one of GW2.

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Mephster

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Mephster

GW2 has only 5 weapon skills per bar, how skillful can one be with so little skills available to them. I'm sorry but the learning curve for this game is very low. If you can't figure out how to use those skills limited skills to the best of your ability then I can't see how skill will determine how well you do. It isn't difficult to figure it out.

There is ~15 to 20 skills that you can actively use on 7/8 classes. The engineer can use up to ~40-45.

 

For instance, An Elemetalist equips a weapon and has access to 20 weapon skills as well as a heal skill, 3 utility skills and an elite skill. For them it is 25 unique active skills through the use of 1 weapon, all of which can be switched out for 30+ different unique active skills.

 

For another instance, a Mesmer can use two weapon sets that gives them access to 10 skills. They also also have 1 heal, 3 utility and 1 elite. On top of that, they have 4 class skills. That is 19 unique active skills, 15 of which can be switched out for over 30 different skills.

 

So no, there are not on'y 5 weapon skills per bar. Hopefully this helps you.

Swapping weapons but still at any time in the game you only get to use 5 weapon skills at a time. It isn't difficult! Yeah tons of skill right there.

Right, so, how about you and I meet up in PvP.  I'll bring my two weapon sets and you can focus on your "only 5 weapon skills at a time".  Won't you be surprised when I attack you from afar, then when you get close enough to me (assuming you remember to dodge - hey another skill! - and I don't kill you first with my 5 lame ranged skills), I'll swap my weapons real quick and nail you with some good melee, then dodge heal dodge, open up with my ranged again and finish you off will some good melee again.  All with "only 5 weapon skills at a time".

 

And that's just one way to do it.

lol. just block that guy. just dont answer him. is obvious from is post history he is just a troll, is uncredible how a guy can post so much false information and not get banned. seriously, every post i saw from this guy was just crap, he dont know anything about game, go check is post history and you will smile...A LOT, than block him as i did. 

 

btw, i want to see a guy not swap weapon or atunements on sPvP, must be a great player indeed. you cant see mesphster because is clear never play the game, or he play the game and just want give false information. 

the best part is in mesphster opinion:

GW2 = only 5 skills on bar  game suck, dont have much tactic

skyrim = best game ever, yap, because that game have lot of skills on bar.... LOOOOOOL

That is a pretty poor example to use. Almost every review hits Skyrim on its combat. It is probably the weakest overall part of the game. Skyrim is great for it's sandbox gameplay and the ability to explore and do what you want with little to no direction.

Originally posted by Mephster

GW2 has only 5 weapon skills per bar, how skillful can one be with so little skills available to them. I'm sorry but the learning curve for this game is very low. If you can't figure out how to use those skills limited skills to the best of your ability then I can't see how skill will determine how well you do. It isn't difficult to figure it out.

Im sorry, but you dont seen to know much about GW2 . I give you an example, as an elementalist, you have the 5 weapon skills for fire, water, earth and air. Right there you have 20 skills plus the other 5 skills (that also can make all the diference when you choose them right), so 25 skills. You can change elements when you want and it also will give you boosts when you change. Beside that if you change weapons you will have another new 5 skills for each element. So just using 2 sets of weapons you would be able to use 45 skills.

Beside skills you have traits, where you also gotta be good at it to improve your character skills and it takes knowledge to do so.

For last you also have to be good with movements, dodging to stay alive while you do skills, change elements, since some have more attack power and others give you more defense, speed, etc. Dont forget that you can do all this while moving, not just sit there and do skills like most of games. For example if you always use fire, the damage is good but you die very very fast.

If you think that you dont have to be skilled to be good and you just need to spam the 1st 5 fire skills you see, you are completely wrong.

Long time i didnt play an mmo that challenged me like GW2 did last BWEs while playing an elementalist at structured PvP.

Ofc everyone can play the game without mastering all that and probably still have fun. But for the players that like pvp and want to be good at it, it takes a lot of skill and it is a very good challenge.

I saw some of your previous posts and maybe there is no point on telling you this, but well i tryed :)

It's funny how people think a game can't be challenging without a 100 buttons. Some FPS feature 2 weapons. 2. Tell me FPS do not require skill.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

Skyrim is great for it's sandbox gameplay and the ability to explore and do what you want with little to no direction.

I always wonder why people say this considering Skyrim is a themepark...

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

 http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/brawn-vs-brains/

Very good article.

"Your progression is dictated by your personal improvement, not by obtaining a new helmet that grants you +30 to Pwnage."

The author also talks about why some less skilled gamers may not like the skill based approach of GW2, where you can't compensate your bad gameplay with more powerful gear.

Another good quote: "Instead of needing to farm gear in order to the play the game, Guild Wars 2 allows you to simply play the game."

Very good article. Thats the reason I played GW1 and will continue with GW2.