true..i dont have any problem feeding cow ,picking apple, drop water to flowers  as long i dont need to kill 10 rats over and over  i dont have any problem shooting  or practice blocking ,and that is why gw2 shine once more  caus eof his unique quest style and system it feel you doing somthing good in the world other than just kill 10 rats and then kill 20 more rats .

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by Mephster

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

I have no problems with picking apples, feeding cows, etc. I find diversity in actions and elments to be far more intersting than

"The (insert x enemy) is attacking (insert x location) again. Stop them".

When it comes to quests, i like having different situation to spice it up. IMO, it's way more fun that stoping the 2nd generic mob invasion. Not to meantion that's already in Rift.

I do because picking apples, watering plants and feeding cows have nothing to do with the war against the dragons. 

 

I beg to differ with you.  Yes, yes they DO.  Your character LIVES in this world.  You are not ONLY battling dragons.  You are working (crafting), exploring, fighting, helping your neighbors (npcs) pick apples and feed their cows....it's all part of one BIG picture.  You're just choosing to look at one piece of it only.

Clicking on apples and cows and holes in the dam do not in anyway make me feel like I live in a world. There is nothing engaging about it. Give me housing, a shop and crafting that really matters and we might be able to talk.

Originally posted by jeremyjodes

Immersion is picking those apples from your own orchard and making a apple pie. this is a quest. thats not a bad thing and they do have to add something to keep you busy. i mean the way folks compain (me included) there is only so much  they can do to keep the masses of people happy.

Why do these dynamic events sound ike Rifts?

 

Anyways I will give the game 3-6 months then see if i will pick it up. sound ok though. anything better then world of pandacraft.

There was nothing dynamic about Rifts. They always spawned at the same place. The conquering NPC was great though and GW2 dynamic events will also feature invasions. However they are more then just that and differ greatly from rifts. Although in the starters  zone they really do not feel to dynamic either, but hope that is going to change. Still even if not the game is good enough as a B2P game.

I like the slower missions in between. Doing constant "epic" things would not really make them epic anymore. 

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by observer

Actually, yes.  There's a cave near a Heart quest, and it's full of bandits.  What you're asking for is a permanent state to the game world.  That is very unlikely to happen in any MMO to date, because the technology would be very difficult to implement.

You're right that it's very unlikely to happen in any MMO, but it has nothing to do with implementing technology. Since the dawn of gaming they've had single player games that allow you to apply a permanent state to the game world.

 

Here's the problem with that. Only one person (or a team in co-cop games) is playing through that content. And once completed they move past it and never see it again.

If you add permanence on that scale to an MMO, it would be devoid of content in hours. Respawning content is simply a matter of necessity to accomodate thousand of players playing round the clock.

Now, it's possible to randomize spawn locations, respawn timers, and what mobs appear, to give the illusion of it not being a respawn, but it still is what it is. 

Originally posted by SuperXero89

So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?

Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.

Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".

They are EPIC apples

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by rygard49

Originally posted by observer

Actually, yes.  There's a cave near a Heart quest, and it's full of bandits.  What you're asking for is a permanent state to the game world.  That is very unlikely to happen in any MMO to date, because the technology would be very difficult to implement.

You're right that it's very unlikely to happen in any MMO, but it has nothing to do with implementing technology. Since the dawn of gaming they've had single player games that allow you to apply a permanent state to the game world.

 

Here's the problem with that. Only one person (or a team in co-cop games) is playing through that content. And once completed they move past it and never see it again.

 

If you add permanence on that scale to an MMO, it would be devoid of content in hours. Respawning content is simply a matter of necessity to accomodate thousand of players playing round the clock.

 

Now, it's possible to randomize spawn locations, respawn timers, and what mobs appear, to give the illusion of it not being a respawn, but it still is what it is. 

This is why people say it is not much different than a traditional quest. If the event happens over and over it loses its wow factor. How many times can you save a bridge, stop an invasion, or escort the little girl. I understand that the DE's chain, but if the chain is just another similar cliche MMO task then is it really that much different than a quest chain? Sure sometimes the world changes for a few minutes sometimes, but it eventually reverts back. I am interested in seeing what the devs do for changing up the events and hope that it is more often than not to avoid the yawn factor of "the centaurs are at it again" or "do those bandits ever stop". I like GW2 and plan on playing it, but I see it for what it is.

SoOriginally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by SuperXero89

So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?

Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.

 

Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".

So do well written quests.... they chain too....

Originally posted by SuperXero89

The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design.  I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames.  While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.

The difference being that in "traditional" MMOs you're only allowed to do the quest once. In GW2, if you happen across the same event a second time you can still fully participate. Farmer Joe, who's so intently worried about those ogres standing in the field over there, where they've stood for years on end, will only ask you to kill ten of them once, then he'll ignore you and ask everyone else that comes along and hasn't killed their quota of ten. Yet the apparent threat is just as great to them as it was to you... but no, only once for you.

Farmer James in Tyria, however, may ask passers by to help out with some tasks he can use a hand with. While people are helping you hear the alarm raised "Ogres are attacking! Holy frak!" Lo and behold, you turn and here come the ogres. They never got the memo to never leave their field, so they're bringing the pain.

By the way... people won't be staying in the one same area all day in GW2. There's too much exploring to be had. You'll complete some renown hearts or DEs in an area and move on.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

SoOriginally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by SuperXero89

So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?

Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.

 

Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".

So do well written quests.... they chain too....

Do them once, you'll always know they're there. The NPC will never seek you out for help, he'll just stand there with the "!" over his head, and only once for you. In GW2, you never know if the NPC will need your help or what he'll need help with.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

SoOriginally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by SuperXero89

So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?

Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.

 

Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".

So do well written quests.... they chain too....

Do them once, you'll always know they're there. The NPC will never seek you out for help, he'll just stand there with the "!" over his head, and only once for you. In GW2, you never know if the NPC will need your help or what he'll need help with.

Sure... the quest is presented in a different way.... he runs over to me instead of having a giant ! or ? over his head. Awesome. The game has evolved some in that respect. It is just when I get the task, it is the same cliche MMO task. It is just presented in a different way. I am not saying that it is awful, it just isn't as earth shattering or game changing as some make it out to be. It does allow for more immersion, I will give it that.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

SoOriginally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by SuperXero89

So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?

Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.

 

Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".

So do well written quests.... they chain too....

Do them once, you'll always know they're there. The NPC will never seek you out for help, he'll just stand there with the "!" over his head, and only once for you. In GW2, you never know if the NPC will need your help or what he'll need help with.

You make a lot of assumptions.  The majority of the NPCs located near dynamic events seemed pretty darn stationary.  I have seen nothing during my time in GW2 to make me believe that NPCs by and large initiate a number of different DEs.  Most of the time, it's like I said.  Johnny's farm is overrun by bandits 5 times a day.

At least traditional questing provides the illusion that you actually conquered the threat once you complete the quest.  In GW2, you're actually expected to go back and complete the same DEs over and over again.  I find it hard to believe that this is more immersive than traditional questing.  In the real world, Farmer John's crops aren't raided by the exact same number of bandits who come in a precise number of waves multiple times a day.  If they did, I bet Farmer John would get out of the farming business fairly quick.

The DEs are mindless fun.  I'm not arguing that.  I just don't see them as any more immsersive for all the reasons I listed above.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period.  After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.

In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another.  It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion. 

MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.

Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.

End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.

I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.

 

The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design.  I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames.  While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.

Traditional questing is someone holding your hand and telling you where to go and what to do. At least in GW2 it's your choice. And if you are standing in the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again that is your mistake not poor game design.

But I guess some players just need to have their hands held.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

SoOriginally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by SuperXero89

So we both agree that GW2 doesn't do any better a job at getting players immersed in PvE progression than any other MMORPG on the market?

Well, one could argue that SW:TOR and TSW probably do a better job.

 

Hmm... I distinctly remember running around in a zone and this Charr runs up to me and says "You, come over here! I need a hand with something!" Turned into a fully unexpected DE with three links in the chain. Not once did he call me "slave".

So do well written quests.... they chain too....

Do them once, you'll always know they're there. The NPC will never seek you out for help, he'll just stand there with the "!" over his head, and only once for you. In GW2, you never know if the NPC will need your help or what he'll need help with.

You make a lot of assumptions.  The majority of the NPCs located near dynamic events seemed pretty darn stationary.  I have seen nothing during my time in GW2 to make me believe that NPCs by and large initiate a number of different DEs.  Most of the time, it's like I said.  Johnny's farm is overrun by bandits 5 times a day.

At least traditional questing provides the illusion that you actually conquered the threat once you complete the quest.  In GW2, you're actually expected to go back and complete the same DEs over and over again.  I find it hard to believe that this is more immersive than traditional questing.  In the real world, Farmer John's crops aren't raided by the exact same number of bandits who come in a precise number of waves multiple times a day.  If they did, I bet Farmer John would get out of the farming business fairly quick.

The DEs are mindless fun.  I'm not arguing that.  I just don't see them as any more immsersive for all the reasons I listed above.

What?! Who you kidding? With traditional questing, you kill the ten ogres, turn around and the ogres are still standing in the field picking their noses waiting for someone else to kill them. Never is there a feeling of accomplishing something... it's always git 'er done and race to the next quest hub. When you come across a town that's been taken over by a giant in GW2, organize a dozen or so people, fight the giant and eventually beat him reviving the town and making the NPCs available... THAT'S accomplishing something. You beat the giant, now everyone can come to that town and interact with the NPCs, help repair the walls, etc.

It has picking apples! It's a WoW Clone! get it! /sarcasm@peoplethatuse"WoW clone"term

Originally posted by SuperXero89

You make a lot of assumptions.  The majority of the NPCs located near dynamic events seemed pretty darn stationary.  I have seen nothing during my time in GW2 to make me believe that NPCs by and large initiate a number of different DEs.  Most of the time, it's like I said.  Johnny's farm is overrun by bandits 5 times a day.

At least traditional questing provides the illusion that you actually conquered the threat once you complete the quest.  In GW2, you're actually expected to go back and complete the same DEs over and over again.  I find it hard to believe that this is more immersive than traditional questing.  In the real world, Farmer John's crops aren't raided by the exact same number of bandits who come in a precise number of waves multiple times a day.  If they did, I bet Farmer John would get out of the farming business fairly quick.

The DEs are mindless fun.  I'm not arguing that.  I just don't see them as any more immsersive for all the reasons I listed above.

Why would you do the same DEs over and over again? That just seems insane.

Originally posted by frogtown

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period.  After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.

In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another.  It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion. 

MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.

Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.

End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.

I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.

 

The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design.  I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames.  While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.

Traditional questing is someone holding your hand and telling you where to go and what to do. At least in GW2 it's your choice. And if you are standing in the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again that is your mistake not poor game design.

But I guess some players just need to have their hands held.

Excuse me, I could have sworn that orange circles on my map meant there was a dynamic event nearby or that heart-shaped icons meant heart quests, usually with a dynamic event not far off.  Nevermind the fact that your personal story quests pretty much lead you through each zone in a linear path.  I'd say that's handholding wouldn't you?

It's not even as if the DEs are all that interesting.  None of them I have experienced require any real thought and revolve around how many badguys you and 45 others players near you can kill before you're killed yourself.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by SuperXero89

You make a lot of assumptions.  The majority of the NPCs located near dynamic events seemed pretty darn stationary.  I have seen nothing during my time in GW2 to make me believe that NPCs by and large initiate a number of different DEs.  Most of the time, it's like I said.  Johnny's farm is overrun by bandits 5 times a day.

At least traditional questing provides the illusion that you actually conquered the threat once you complete the quest.  In GW2, you're actually expected to go back and complete the same DEs over and over again.  I find it hard to believe that this is more immersive than traditional questing.  In the real world, Farmer John's crops aren't raided by the exact same number of bandits who come in a precise number of waves multiple times a day.  If they did, I bet Farmer John would get out of the farming business fairly quick.

The DEs are mindless fun.  I'm not arguing that.  I just don't see them as any more immsersive for all the reasons I listed above.

Why would you do the same DEs over and over again? That just seems insane.

Because it's the most efficient way to level.  I'm still not sure there are enough DEs scattered around the map for a player to only run each event once before moving on to new areas, but locating all those events would be a slow and laborious process.

I consider myself someone whose tastes fall in line fairly well with mainstream gamers, and I can tell you that not everyone is going to enjoy frolicking around a virtual fantasy world for no other reason than just because.  Most players are going to locate the DEs that exist close to the heart quest locations, and they'll simply repeat those over and over until they can move on to the next location.  Others will probably do little else than PvP for the entire time they play.  Either way, when they get bored of running the same content over and over, they'll quit.

No matter though.  Because GW2 is B2P, it can sell 5 million copies then 5 years later when GW3 is in development and GW2 hasn't seen a major expansion in years, Anet can still claim it's the second most played MMORPG in America despite the fact that it only has around 10,000 active players.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by frogtown

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Even so, it's really only immersive the first couple of times it happens as in the real world, I doubt centaurs raid villages 10 times in a 24 hour period.  After the fifth time you've saved a farmer's field from the same group of bandits, you start to wonder why the city guard doesn't station a legion in the area.

In the end, you realize it's just a simplistic minigame where you're repelling waves of invaders, none of whom look very different from one another.  It's fun, but I wouldn't use it as evidence of immersion. 

MMORPGS aren't know for tracking time very well.

Still, they do stand a legion in the area, but then centaurs arrive raze the village and make their own villages and forts.

End of the day it is a game, not a simulator.

I'm sorry you have never been immersed in a MMORPG since none does what you describe.

 

The discussion on immersion is limited to quest design.  I understand how dynamic events sound immersive on paper, but in practice, I'm saying that they feel like minigames.  While traditional questing has players doing similar activities, at least you're not going to the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again like you will be in GW2.

Traditional questing is someone holding your hand and telling you where to go and what to do. At least in GW2 it's your choice. And if you are standing in the same location doing the exact same thing over and over again that is your mistake not poor game design.

But I guess some players just need to have their hands held.

Excuse me, I could have sworn that orange circles on my map meant there was a dynamic event nearby or that heart-shaped icons meant heart quests, usually with a dynamic event not far off.  Nevermind the fact that your personal story quests pretty much lead you through each zone in a linear path.  I'd say that's handholding wouldn't you?

It's not even as if the DEs are all that interesting.  None of them I have experienced require any real thought and revolve around how many badguys you and 45 others players near you can kill before you're killed yourself.

But in the end it's your choice of which of those things you want to do. No quest giver that told you to kill 10 rats is going to give you credit because you chose to do something else instead. 

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by SuperXero89

You make a lot of assumptions.  The majority of the NPCs located near dynamic events seemed pretty darn stationary.  I have seen nothing during my time in GW2 to make me believe that NPCs by and large initiate a number of different DEs.  Most of the time, it's like I said.  Johnny's farm is overrun by bandits 5 times a day.

At least traditional questing provides the illusion that you actually conquered the threat once you complete the quest.  In GW2, you're actually expected to go back and complete the same DEs over and over again.  I find it hard to believe that this is more immersive than traditional questing.  In the real world, Farmer John's crops aren't raided by the exact same number of bandits who come in a precise number of waves multiple times a day.  If they did, I bet Farmer John would get out of the farming business fairly quick.

The DEs are mindless fun.  I'm not arguing that.  I just don't see them as any more immsersive for all the reasons I listed above.

Why would you do the same DEs over and over again? That just seems insane.

Because it's the most efficient way to level.  I'm still not sure there are enough DEs scattered around the map for a player to only run each event once before moving on to new areas, but locating all those events would be a slow and laborious process.

I consider myself someone whose tastes fall in line fairly well with mainstream gamers, and I can tell you that not everyone is going to enjoy frolicking around a virtual fantasy world for no other reason than just because.  Most players are going to locate the DEs that exist close to the heart quest locations, and they'll simply repeat those over and over until they can move on to the next location.  Others will probably do little else than PvP for the entire time they play.  Either way, when they get bored of running the same content over and over, they'll quit.

No matter though.  Because GW2 is B2P, it can sell 5 million copies then 5 years later when GW3 is in development and GW2 hasn't seen a major expansion in years, Anet can still claim it's the second most played MMORPG in America despite the fact that it only has around 10,000 active players.

Not really.

I found moving from heart to heart while doing DEs along the way was the most efficient way.