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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Picking apples? In MY MMO? Really?

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194 posts found
  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

7/11/12 2:50:24 PM#61

Wait Meow - are you actually saying that some professional game developers may actually know more about good game design than forum arm-chair devs?

UNPOSSIBLE!

;)

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

7/11/12 2:51:06 PM#62
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by colddog04

Now there is some spin for picking apples and feeding cows.

 

I just chalked it up to being one of the first hearts in the starting zone. I thought, "alright, I can accept this. It's moving me through the starting area and getting me used to the controls and whatnot."

 

But no! It was "pacing design!"

 They're not completely talking out of their ass here you know, that's a basic concept of game design.  The Japanese actually have a word for it, 'Merihari'.

"'What's merihar?' you are probably asking; well it's a Japanese word that embodies rhythm+balance+distribution—for example. imagine a roller coaster ride without merihari, and it would just be a continuous downhill ride. That may sound good, but, actually without the tension of that initial climb, a fairly large chunk of the thrill is lost. It's why boss fights work well in games. The stage before it builds up the tension. If you have a game that only has boss fights, the experience begins to feel shallow. (a game that sticks in my mind for doing this, unfortunately, is Omega Boost from Polyphony, a game that would have been much better if it had built up the tension before each battle)

(quote taken from http://kotaku.com/5924387/the-difference-between-a-good-video-game-and-a-bad-one )

The nice thing about MOST of the things like apple or grape picking or whatever, is that usually it's an option, rather than the only way to proceed.  So you can slow down if you want, or keep rushing headlong, whatever a player's personal sense pacing dictates.  Not just an option in the sense of 'go level somewhere else', but in that hearts have different ways to proceed, and dynamic events can usually almost singlehandedly fill up a heart.

THANK YOU.

 

I've been trying to remember where the heck i read that article for like an hour now. I was going to reference this as well. There is some truth to the concept of lesser events as pacing.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2588

7/11/12 3:39:30 PM#63
Originally posted by terrant
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by colddog04

Now there is some spin for picking apples and feeding cows.

 

I just chalked it up to being one of the first hearts in the starting zone. I thought, "alright, I can accept this. It's moving me through the starting area and getting me used to the controls and whatnot."

 

But no! It was "pacing design!"

 They're not completely talking out of their ass here you know, that's a basic concept of game design.  The Japanese actually have a word for it, 'Merihari'.

"'What's merihar?' you are probably asking; well it's a Japanese word that embodies rhythm+balance+distribution—for example. imagine a roller coaster ride without merihari, and it would just be a continuous downhill ride. That may sound good, but, actually without the tension of that initial climb, a fairly large chunk of the thrill is lost. It's why boss fights work well in games. The stage before it builds up the tension. If you have a game that only has boss fights, the experience begins to feel shallow. (a game that sticks in my mind for doing this, unfortunately, is Omega Boost from Polyphony, a game that would have been much better if it had built up the tension before each battle)

(quote taken from http://kotaku.com/5924387/the-difference-between-a-good-video-game-and-a-bad-one )

The nice thing about MOST of the things like apple or grape picking or whatever, is that usually it's an option, rather than the only way to proceed.  So you can slow down if you want, or keep rushing headlong, whatever a player's personal sense pacing dictates.  Not just an option in the sense of 'go level somewhere else', but in that hearts have different ways to proceed, and dynamic events can usually almost singlehandedly fill up a heart.

THANK YOU.

 

I've been trying to remember where the heck i read that article for like an hour now. I was going to reference this as well. There is some truth to the concept of lesser events as pacing.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/episode-07-pacing

For those prefering cartoons.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5547

7/11/12 3:44:23 PM#64
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by colddog04

Now there is some spin for picking apples and feeding cows.

 

I just chalked it up to being one of the first hearts in the starting zone. I thought, "alright, I can accept this. It's moving me through the starting area and getting me used to the controls and whatnot."

 

But no! It was "pacing design!"

 They're not completely talking out of their ass here you know, that's a basic concept of game design.  The Japanese actually have a word for it, 'Merihari'.

"'What's merihar?' you are probably asking; well it's a Japanese word that embodies rhythm+balance+distribution—for example. imagine a roller coaster ride without merihari, and it would just be a continuous downhill ride. That may sound good, but, actually without the tension of that initial climb, a fairly large chunk of the thrill is lost. It's why boss fights work well in games. The stage before it builds up the tension. If you have a game that only has boss fights, the experience begins to feel shallow. (a game that sticks in my mind for doing this, unfortunately, is Omega Boost from Polyphony, a game that would have been much better if it had built up the tension before each battle)

(quote taken from http://kotaku.com/5924387/the-difference-between-a-good-video-game-and-a-bad-one )

The nice thing about MOST of the things like apple or grape picking or whatever, is that usually it's an option, rather than the only way to proceed.  So you can slow down if you want, or keep rushing headlong, whatever a player's personal sense pacing dictates.  Not just an option in the sense of 'go level somewhere else', but in that hearts have different ways to proceed, and dynamic events can usually almost singlehandedly fill up a heart.

I udnerstand that pacing is an important aspect for not only game design, but movies, writing... well many forms of entertainment.

 

What I don't agree with is how they spun picking apples into some great example of their prowess in pacing design.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

7/11/12 3:48:29 PM#65
Originally posted by colddog04

What I don't agree with is how they spun picking apples into some great example of their prowess in pacing design.

 Whether or not it's a GREAT example, that's definitely what it is.  It's a break in pacing.

Actually, I'm not sure if you can call it a great example, but you can certainly call it a really BLATANT example.  Would that make you happier? :>

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2609

7/11/12 3:54:34 PM#66

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

  unfettered

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/12
Posts: 97

7/11/12 3:55:24 PM#67
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

how did tera turn out?  

  User Deleted
7/11/12 3:55:48 PM#68
Originally posted by StrixMaxima

It is a straightforward answer, but I think that anyone with some critical thinking would have arrived at this conclusion.

That's the thing tho, critical thinking in these forums is a very rare thing amongst those who hate GW2.

See the OP can post quotes all he wants to (and don't get me wrong here i applaud him for doing so) however, the people who dislike or hate this game won't pay attention to things like factual data, quoting actual interviews or even recorded gameplay that everyone can see easily. They'll still be running around like bobblehead dolls chirping the same words over and over until the sun sets. "P2W" "hype HYPE" "FANBOI" And anyone who tries to show them otherwise is a terrible horrible person for doing so (#sarcasm) or they supposedly pounce on people when someone make these chirps of nonsense with no basis for their arguments other then an adolescent "I'M RIGHT" cheer at the end of their post.

 

Besides i kinda like the idea of being able to do mundane things for fun, it breaks the monotony of killing everthing in sight.

  Jimmydean

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

7/11/12 3:57:53 PM#69

Oh man, a game developer trying to sell his video game said that not fun things are actually fun because they are in guild wars 2. I can now see the light, cant wait to pick apples in GW2!

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

7/11/12 4:09:52 PM#70
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

The difference is that most game designers only give you the picking apples quests....throughout the entire game.  In this case, these mundane quests are completely optional.

 

On top of that, no one here claimed those renown hearts were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I for one find them a little boring and only have done them if I want a change of pace.  Which, coincidentally, is exactly why they are there.

 

You can go back to hating on GW2 now.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

7/11/12 4:11:31 PM#71
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

 Not as many hours as I've spent talking about how Animal Crossing is one of the most awesome games EVER.

Hey.  Give me at least a little credit for being able to hold an opinion without Arenanet giving it to me.  I've loved picking apples in games since long before GW2 came out.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm part of the fanbase and I know what I like.  I like doing silly little mundane relaxing activities.

That's never actually been my problem with quests in MMORPGs.  I have other problems with them, many of which I've recounted time after time.

It's like how when people complain about a 'kill 10 rats' quest, and people accuse them of being hypocritical because GW2 has killing of things.  It really DOES do it in some different ways, and just because certain posters might not find those ceratin ways important to them personally, does not mean that they don't exist.

I like that when somebody says 'oh no, bandits are burning my crops', they actually are.  I've always been annoyed by quests where they claim things are happening that very clearly are not happening, because it's a very weird disassociation that builds up over hundreds of hours of questing where the quest text is clearly at odds with what the game itself is presenting.

There's lots of features like that, that make me like dynamic events.  I never hated 10 rat quests because I hate killing.  If I hated killing in games, I'd probably switch genres away from MMORPGs. :)

It's the same way with the relatively mundane tasks in GW2.  There are ways they do and present things that I prefer.  That doesn't make me hypocritical or a fanboy, or mindlessly lapping up what Arenanet gives me.

I'm pretty sure I'm not completely alone, either (Though sometimes I do like to pretend I'm the only smart person in the world and every other person holding my opinions are just holding it because they're mimicking me).

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5547

7/11/12 4:12:38 PM#72
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by colddog04

What I don't agree with is how they spun picking apples into some great example of their prowess in pacing design.

 Whether or not it's a GREAT example, that's definitely what it is.  It's a break in pacing.

Actually, I'm not sure if you can call it a great example, but you can certainly call it a really BLATANT example.  Would that make you happier? :>

My original post, as you can probably tell, was meant to be a bit tongue and cheek.

 

Besides that, I think this is a very fine example of a situation where one player may find the pacing of picking apples after an event exquisite and another may find it monotonous and unimportant. Poor pacing is just as real as great pacing and I'm not convinced that feeding cows and picking apples are the best example of a master designer at work. But perhaps many feels differently.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

7/11/12 4:13:55 PM#73
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

 Not as many hours as I've spent talking about how Animal Crossing is one of the most awesome games EVER.

Hey.  Give me at least a little credit for being able to hold an opinion without Arenanet giving it to me.  I've loved picking apples in games since long before GW2 came out.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm part of the fanbase and I know what I like.  I like doing silly little mundane relaxing activities.

That's never actually been my problem with quests in MMORPGs.  I have other problems with them, many of which I've recounted time after time.

It's like how when people complain about a 'kill 10 rats' quest, and people accuse them of being hypocritical because GW2 has killing of things.  It really DOES do it in some different ways, and just because certain posters might not find those ceratin ways important to them personally, does not mean that they don't exist.

I like that when somebody says 'oh no, bandits are burning my crops', they actually are.  I've always been annoyed by quests where they claim things are happening that very clearly are not happening, because it's a very weird disassociation that builds up over hundreds of hours of questing where the quest text is clearly at odds with what the game itself is presenting.

There's lots of features like that, that make me like dynamic events.  I never hated 10 rat quests because I hate killing.  If I hated killing in games, I'd probably switch genres away from MMORPGs. :)

It's the same way with the relatively mundane tasks in GW2.  There are ways they do and present things that I prefer.  That doesn't make me hypocritical or a fanboy, or mindlessly lapping up what Arenanet gives me.

I'm pretty sure I'm not completely alone, either (Though sometimes I do like to pretend I'm the only smart person in the world and every other person holding my opinions are just holding it because they're mimicking me).

 

This is an excellent point.   You're told by a questgiver in some other game "Help!  Those Kobolds are attacking our town and have carried off villagers!".   Well they aren't, I watched!  They're just permanently standing in that field northeast of the questgiver.   =P

  User Deleted
7/11/12 4:13:59 PM#74

But the big question is:

If i don't want to pick appels, can i pick bananas?

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2609

7/11/12 4:17:04 PM#75
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

The difference is that most game designers only give you the picking apples quests....throughout the entire game.  In this case, these mundane quests are completely optional.

 

On top of that, no one here claimed those renown hearts were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I for one find them a little boring and only have done them if I want a change of pace.  Which, coincidentally, is exactly why they are there.

 

You can go back to hating on GW2 now.

In 17 levels of GW2, I killed waves of bandits, I killed waves of cenaurs, I escorted lots of  caravans, and I picked lots of berries.  I may or may not have killed a world boss or two.  At least from what I have seen, content variety is not GW2's strongsuite.  I don't think you can say GW2 offers any greater variety of quests than perhaps WoW or SW:TOR.

Secondly, a change of pace is good, but the SW:TOR space minigame was also supposed to be a change of pace, yet people expected full-on freeform space travel.  My point is, if you're going to create content for a change of pace, at least make that change of pace fun and engaging.  If it's a boring mess, I'm going to call you out on it, which is what I'm doing right now.

  SteeJanz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 346

7/11/12 4:20:40 PM#76
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

Probably a lot less time spent then posters contantly posting negative comments about game they don't play (or will not play).

Probably a lot less time spent then posters contantly accusing positve posters of being fanboi's.  

Probably a lot less time spent then posters contantly accusing developers of lying and deceit.

Probably a lot less time spent then time spent trolling.

Probably a lot less time then I have wasted replying to this post.

 

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

7/11/12 4:26:17 PM#77
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

The difference is that most game designers only give you the picking apples quests....throughout the entire game.  In this case, these mundane quests are completely optional.

 

On top of that, no one here claimed those renown hearts were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I for one find them a little boring and only have done them if I want a change of pace.  Which, coincidentally, is exactly why they are there.

 

You can go back to hating on GW2 now.

In 17 levels of GW2, I killed waves of bandits, I killed waves of cenaurs, I escorted lots of  caravans, and I picked lots of berries.  I may or may not have killed a world boss or two.  At least from what I have seen, content variety is not GW2's strongsuite.  I don't think you can say GW2 offers any greater variety of quests than perhaps WoW or SW:TOR.

Secondly, a change of pace is good, but the SW:TOR space minigame was also supposed to be a change of pace, yet people expected full-on freeform space travel.  My point is, if you're going to create content for a change of pace, at least make that change of pace fun and engaging.  If it's a boring mess, I'm going to call you out on it, which is what I'm doing right now.


If you had called them out on the mundane tasks being  a boring mess in your opinion, that would have been fine.  Instead, what you did was take a cheap shot (a completely inaccurate one btw) at both the game's designers and its fanbase.

 

That's cool if you think the "change of pace" is boring (I thought some of it was too).  However, one of the things said in that quote was that they are looking at the "boring ones" and trying to make them fun.  So, they're doing exactly what you want them to do and you turn around and say they're twisting things.  I don't really understand that "logic".

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  romanator0

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/10
Posts: 2425

7/11/12 4:27:06 PM#78
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

The difference is that most game designers only give you the picking apples quests....throughout the entire game.  In this case, these mundane quests are completely optional.

 

On top of that, no one here claimed those renown hearts were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I for one find them a little boring and only have done them if I want a change of pace.  Which, coincidentally, is exactly why they are there.

 

You can go back to hating on GW2 now.

In 17 levels of GW2, I killed waves of bandits, I killed waves of cenaurs, I escorted lots of  caravans, and I picked lots of berries.  I may or may not have killed a world boss or two.  At least from what I have seen, content variety is not GW2's strongsuite.  I don't think you can say GW2 offers any greater variety of quests than perhaps WoW or SW:TOR.

Secondly, a change of pace is good, but the SW:TOR space minigame was also supposed to be a change of pace, yet people expected full-on freeform space travel.  My point is, if you're going to create content for a change of pace, at least make that change of pace fun and engaging.  If it's a boring mess, I'm going to call you out on it, which is what I'm doing right now.

This is the problem, you are ignoring the context and focusing on the numbers. You're not looking at these things like you're  helping Farmer John protect his orchard or helping Rancher Sally pick apples for a pie, you're looking at it like you're just killing bandits and picking fruit as the ultimate purpose of what you're doing. You're ignoring what is supposed to make your actions fun and engaging and focusing purely on what you're doing without context. Because of that the problem inherintly lies with you and not the game. You can't call someone out on a game being boring when you are what is making the game boring.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2038

7/11/12 4:29:30 PM#79
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

You see how trolls can twist some words around and claim GW2 fans think what they do not?

  Jimmydean

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/21/04
Posts: 1302

7/11/12 4:30:14 PM#80
Originally posted by romanator0
Originally posted by SuperXero89
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by SuperXero89

You see how Anet can twist some words around, and then their fanbase thinks the mostmundane tasks in the game are the greatest things since sliced bread?

 

I wonder how many hours most of the posters here spent criticizing other games for their mundane quest design.

The difference is that most game designers only give you the picking apples quests....throughout the entire game.  In this case, these mundane quests are completely optional.

 

On top of that, no one here claimed those renown hearts were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I for one find them a little boring and only have done them if I want a change of pace.  Which, coincidentally, is exactly why they are there.

 

You can go back to hating on GW2 now.

In 17 levels of GW2, I killed waves of bandits, I killed waves of cenaurs, I escorted lots of  caravans, and I picked lots of berries.  I may or may not have killed a world boss or two.  At least from what I have seen, content variety is not GW2's strongsuite.  I don't think you can say GW2 offers any greater variety of quests than perhaps WoW or SW:TOR.

Secondly, a change of pace is good, but the SW:TOR space minigame was also supposed to be a change of pace, yet people expected full-on freeform space travel.  My point is, if you're going to create content for a change of pace, at least make that change of pace fun and engaging.  If it's a boring mess, I'm going to call you out on it, which is what I'm doing right now.

This is the problem, you are ignoring the context and focusing on the numbers. You're not looking at these things like you're  helping Farmer John protect his orchard or helping Rancher Sally pick apples for a pie, you're looking at it like you're just killing bandits and picking fruit as the ultimate purpose of what you're doing. You're ignoring what is supposed to make your actions fun and engaging and focusing purely on what you're doing without context. Because of that the problem inherintly lies with you and not the game. You can't call someone out on a game being boring when you are what is making the game boring.

True, we all remember how fun the quests were in SWTOR because NPCS told us all about them!

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