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News & Features Discussion  » General: Why Did the MMORPG Become a Grind?

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77 posts found
  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 13281

 
OP  7/10/12 6:23:10 PM#1

We are pleased to bring our readers a new voice here at MMORPG.com in the form of Andrew Hallam. In his inaugural column, Andrew wonders how on Earth MMOs became grind fests. See what he says and then weigh in with your own thoughts in the comments.

What does the phrase MMORPG mean to you nowadays? Travelling through the World of Warcraft showing off your epic loots? Defeating dark Jedi with your guild mates or perhaps for some, myself included, it represents a problem within gaming as a whole.

Read more of Andrew Hallam's Why Did the MMORPG Become a Grind?

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8591

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

7/11/12 7:08:54 AM#2

The grind came with EQ, Tough we didnt mind grinding back then, as it was the first virtuall 3D reallity 

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  rammur65

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 54

7/11/12 7:14:12 AM#3

I never considered it grind even back in the day it was immersion in some ways in the days we called it hunting we needed spidersilk or wanted it we would go hunt spiders thats how our characters would thrive in the virtual worlds nowdays there is no immersion everyone seem to be zoned into the so called endgame crap me most my guildy we enjoy the journey we enjoy the gamingworld the virtual playground the developers make for us to enjoy. new generation of mmo players are whiney qqers anymore problably should be playing the mmo genre to begin with stick with console game if you dont liek the said grind.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18996

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/11/12 7:21:01 AM#4

Ah a fellow old school, BitterVet ™ who favors sandbox style titles such as UO, SWG and EVE over standard theme park fare.

Count me a fan, though I think the real issue isn't the addition of grind, to me grind pretty much defines the genre. (don't kid yourself, you were grinding something back in UO, even if it was only money/resources)

What you really miss from these titles is the virtual world feel that they all have, even if you grind in them (and I ground endlessly for cash in EVE myself) their basic design makes the universe feel more alive and vibrant.

So don't slam the grind, its not inherently evil, rather slam the fact most MMO's have evolved (?) into MMO like games instead of MMO worlds.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7147

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/11/12 7:34:31 AM#5

Awful article. Really. Jaundiced and somewhat elitest, and I am being kind.

 

EQ, despite it's grind (I will be clear here and say I like grind, if it's the RIGHT kind of grind), very much felt like a world and very much offered me a feeling of adventure, and people RPed in it all the time. It was as much of a ROLE PLAY game as you wanted it to be.

 

I suspect the author did not even play the game and is only intererested in demonising it through second hand experience and assumption.

 

When you ask 'Why then is it that most of your time is spent killing massive amounts of 'enemies' without making a single dent in the storyline'? you show me you didn't understand EQ at all. Though it had a backlore, a pretty disposable one tbh, it was NOT about making an impact on an established story. This is you showing me again you fail to understand what you are blaming. 

 

Tell any guy that stood there at the moment of completing his epic he didn't feel like a goddam hero.

 

 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3545

7/11/12 7:38:07 AM#6

Wasn't UO/EQ the most grindiest MMO if we look at them now?

I really don't get this 'back in my day' stuff when it comes to grind.

Heck, the advert for WoW was 'There are QUESTS till max level!'.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  sirphobos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 601

7/11/12 7:41:04 AM#7

Everquest was the grindiest MMO I"ve ever played by far, but it was fun, so I didn't care.

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

7/11/12 7:42:37 AM#8
Originally posted by Vesavius

Awful article. Really. Jaundiced and somewhat elitest, and I am being kind.

 

EQ, despite it's grind (I will be clear here and say I like grind, if it's the RIGHT kind of grind), very much felt like a world and very much offered me a feeling of adventure, and people RPed in it all the time. It was as much of a ROLE PLAY game as you wanted it to be.

 

I suspect the author did not even play the game and is only intererested in demonising it through second hand experience and assumption.

 

When you ask 'Why then is it that most of your time is spent killing massive amounts of 'enemies' without making a single dent in the storyline'? you show me you didn't understand EQ at all. Though it had a backlore, a pretty disposable one tbh, it was NOT about making an impact on an established story. This is you showing me again you fail to understand what you are blaming. 

 

Tell any guy that stood there at the moment of completing his epic he didn't feel like a goddam hero.

 

 

This^ all day long

  dieman4

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/09
Posts: 9

7/11/12 7:43:01 AM#9

Amen to that. The closest thing that felt really awesome back in the day was Runescape..which i had a blast playing it till all the changes came afterwards. And finally Neverwinter nights...that game even though it was more of a RPG, the gameplay was amazing.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11429

7/11/12 7:45:05 AM#10

i hate faction grinds -- i dont mind experience grinds

I prefer slower leveling

  User Deleted
7/11/12 7:45:50 AM#11

Things to do in a basic themepark MMORPG:

  1. kill mobs
  2. kill other players
  3. gather items from kills
  4. gather items from resource nodes
  5. group run mazes killing mobs and gathering items (dungeons)
  6. do tasks for NPCs (one or more of the above)
  7. read storyline (related to tasks)
  8. watch cut scenes (related to tasks)
  9. assemble items into other items (crafting)
  10. buy items from vendors
  11. buy or trade items with other players
  12. equip items on character
  13. buy skills from vendors
  14. adjust skills / stats via UI
  15. interact with others in the process of doing the above

These things are done for two reasons, character progression (unlock skills, stats and new environments) and passive entertainment via storyline.

 

The reason MMORPGs are grindy (repetitive) is because there's a limited number of things to do.  The only things that change are environments and complexity of mechanics used to to do these activities.

 

Change games to get away from the grind?  Not likely.  Most are rehashes of the same activities with changes in how the activities are done, but not the activities themselves.

 

  calranthe

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/05
Posts: 361

7/11/12 7:47:05 AM#12
Originally posted by Vesavius

Awful article. Really. Jaundiced and somewhat elitest, and I am being kind.

 

EQ, despite it's grind (I will be clear here and say I like grind, if it's the RIGHT kind of grind), very much felt like a world and very much offered me a feeling of adventure, and people RPed in it all the time. It was as much of a ROLE PLAY game as you wanted it to be.

 

I suspect the author did not even play the game and is only intererested in demonising it through second hand experience and assumption.

 

When you ask 'Why then is it that most of your time is spent killing massive amounts of 'enemies' without making a single dent in the storyline'? you show me you didn't understand EQ at all. Though it had a backlore, a pretty disposable one tbh, it was NOT about making an impact on an established story. This is you showing me again you fail to understand what you are blaming. 

 

Tell any guy that stood there at the moment of completing his epic he didn't feel like a goddam hero.

 

 

Actually please do not try to say everyone enjoyed it, most of the people I knew were completely burnt out by the spawn rate, the grindfest and even the epics.

Grind is never good it is what a developer forces you to do without innovation.

 

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1118

7/11/12 7:49:45 AM#13

MMOs arent "Grinds" any longer. They are freaking "Facerolls" They are so easy, it takes no effort to get to max level.

No or limited DP,  Fast Travel, Soloable Content, Everyone has a Healing ability, etc.

The "Grind" was taken away long ago

Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

7/11/12 7:50:53 AM#14

Your grinding no matter what your doin. Grinding Qusts, grinding resources, grinding gear, grinding achievments, etc etc

 

I for one like grinding. Standing out in some field somewhere gathering mats while getting some of the exp i lost doing something stupid. Or grinding out workorders and the like. It makes me feel like im working towards something.

 

Bring on the grind!

 

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10569

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

7/11/12 7:54:31 AM#15

MMORPG didn't become a grind...they've always been a grind. Repeatedly killing monsters, repeatedly clearing dungeons, repeatedly turning in quests...it's part of the game.

I think the title of this article is misleading. It's not about MMORPG becoming a grind, it's about the transition from virtual worlds to games. Virtual worlds are cool, but with a few exceptions, they don't sell as well as games. If there are more people who like games versus worlds, then it makes sense that there are more developers who like games versus worlds as well. Blaming greed is easy. Nobody ever suggests that Rift was what it was because that's what Trion's developers want to make. Sure, money is good, but they liked the game. Ditto for TSW. They didn't make a virtual world for reasons above and beyond simple greed.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7147

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/11/12 7:55:48 AM#16
Originally posted by calranthe
Originally posted by Vesavius

Awful article. Really. Jaundiced and somewhat elitest, and I am being kind.

 

EQ, despite it's grind (I will be clear here and say I like grind, if it's the RIGHT kind of grind), very much felt like a world and very much offered me a feeling of adventure, and people RPed in it all the time. It was as much of a ROLE PLAY game as you wanted it to be.

 

I suspect the author did not even play the game and is only intererested in demonising it through second hand experience and assumption.

 

When you ask 'Why then is it that most of your time is spent killing massive amounts of 'enemies' without making a single dent in the storyline'? you show me you didn't understand EQ at all. Though it had a backlore, a pretty disposable one tbh, it was NOT about making an impact on an established story. This is you showing me again you fail to understand what you are blaming. 

 

Tell any guy that stood there at the moment of completing his epic he didn't feel like a goddam hero.

Actually please do not try to say everyone enjoyed it, most of the people I knew were completely burnt out by the spawn rate, the grindfest and even the epics.

Grind is never good it is what a developer forces you to do without innovation.

 

Please do not tell me grind is never good when I personally enjoy it.

 

And, btw, actually, I didn't say EVERYONE enjoyed it. Please do not put words into my mouth. What game does EVERYONE enjoy?

 

EQ wasn't for the faint of heart and there were burnouts, sure. It was a demanding game. Even the most easiest spoon fed games of today, and not just MMORPGs, get burnouts though so I don't take that as a criticism of EQ. Ask a dev the percentage of players that finish any game. It isn't high.

 

 

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

7/11/12 7:56:33 AM#17
Originally posted by Vesavius

Awful article. Really. Jaundiced and somewhat elitest, and I am being kind.

 

EQ, despite it's grind (I will be clear here and say I like grind, if it's the RIGHT kind of grind), very much felt like a world and very much offered me a feeling of adventure, and people RPed in it all the time. It was as much of a ROLE PLAY game as you wanted it to be.

 

I suspect the author did not even play the game and is only intererested in demonising it through second hand experience and assumption.

 

When you ask 'Why then is it that most of your time is spent killing massive amounts of 'enemies' without making a single dent in the storyline'? you show me you didn't understand EQ at all. Though it had a backlore, a pretty disposable one tbh, it was NOT about making an impact on an established story. This is you showing me again you fail to understand what you are blaming. 

 

Tell any guy that stood there at the moment of completing his epic he didn't feel like a goddam hero.

 

 

Agreed, albeit i agree with his points about the industry becoming nothing but a cash-cow to be milked post-WoW. However, EQ felt 10000x more of a breathing world than SWTOR, WoW, Rift, aion, or TERA ever have/will.

I'm still holding out hope that EQ3 will be a return to greatness, but that's merely a fan talking out of his bum :(.

 

Games I wish would be develoepd & mirror their predecessors:

DAOC 2 (been said as a giant "Hell No"...so /epicSadFace)

EQ3 (from pre-alpha screenshots looked like WoW, again /epicSadFace)

Planetside 2 (so far, kind of iffy)

ArcheAge (looking like a massive Asian-based grindgame with a sandbox design)

TheRepopulation (a good attempt at another SWG, but the design is so far "chunky" at best)

 

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  saurus123

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 510

7/11/12 8:02:02 AM#18

its all becouse p2p model

 

devs wanted players to stay as long as possible in thier mmo so they invented grind ;D

  hardicon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/10
Posts: 359

7/11/12 8:04:32 AM#19

you want to know what happened to the mmorpg.  two things, WOW and MONEY. 

 

uo, eq, ac, daoc, swo.  Those were the last true massively multiplayer online roleplaying games.  Those felt like actual worlds that you lived in, not a place you were visiting.  unfortunately the consumers voted with their wallet and didnt play those games.  Blizzard made WOW and originally it was very different from what it is today.  WoW designed to be that virtual world that allowed players to do the fun things without all the boring stuff that people didnt like to do.  Wow made a lot of money.  other developers and more importantly publishers and investors saw this too.  They wanted that money, so the age of the wow clones began. 

To tell you the truth we as gamers can only blame ourselves.  We are the ones that paid for the products.  We voted with our wallets and our wallets said Wow.  developers and stuff are in this for the money so they are gonna make the type of games they think they can make more money.

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7147

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/11/12 8:08:19 AM#20
Originally posted by saurus123

its all becouse p2p model

devs wanted players to stay as long as possible in thier mmo so they invented grind ;D

 

Rubbish. A lot of F2P games have huge grind.

And if you think they don't want you in game, and in shop, as much as possible so they can sell you their junk you're tripping.

Both payment models require you to be invested and coming back for more.

 

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