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  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/10/12 10:04:28 AM#1

Here are some key features that I believe would make the "Holy Grail" mmo for the older generation of mmo gamers. That generation consists of gamers who played EQ, UO, AC, DaOC. Now, these features are geared towards a certain niche and won't accomodate all of those games. I am one of those old generation players and would like to see the mmo industry move into a different direction. Now, I am not saying these features for an mmo are only for the older generation gamer, but more so any gamer that is sick of the new model. These features include the first principles of what mmo's should be and who is not looking for instant gratification.

 

 - A community first game. This means grouping content will be rewarded moreso than solo play. Solo content will be available as well. A ratio of about 60 grouping, and 40 percent solo content.
 
- A game where wisdom and challenge is a factor every time you log in. This does not include time sinks, but moreso strategy of combat, navagation or crafting.
 
- Top heavy PVE oriented gameplay. Hardcore PVE needs to make a comeback but implemented correctly.
 
- Realistic graphics, (no towers for shoulder item graphics) a world that has a balance of realism and fantasy.
 
- A vast seamless world that will captivate you to explore and adventure on a single shard server. Possibly no instances.
 
- In-depth class design which will immerse you directly into a class. Classes are easy to learn but hard to master.
 
- There are dozens of ways to play a class, completely up to the player.
 
- Stats are universal and are not dependent on a set of archetypes.
 
- Two immense combat mechanics that allow tons of strategy with player adaptability within the fluidity of combat. Combat mechanics complement class design to allow a vast array of many options. Must become a tactician. Can't go into many battles without strategy of some sort. 
 
- AI that will be very intelligent. For an example, whereas a more militaristic mob will adapt while in combat to your fighting style so you'd always want to be on your toes.
 
- A death penality that isn't too harsh nor non existent. A death penality that would enhance you to be mor careful on your journeys.
 
- A main plot line that will twist and turn you and flip you upside down. However, players can directly influence the world and the plot to have different possible climax's and outcomes.
 
- A player driven economy with separate crafting classes where player can establish their own markets.
 
- NPC's don't necessarly drop items but materials to make that item. Players get to decide what stats they want to put in different items depending on different variables.
 
- Raid Campaigns for progressing players and end game content that will immerse you into possible real militaristic medieval strategies.
 
 
So what do you think? Do all or most or even some features instrest you? Should this be the way for mmos? Discuss your thhoughts.
 
  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/10/12 11:40:53 AM#2

Changed the tread title because the previously wsa calling out one crowd when it's not intended for it.

  rottN

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/03
Posts: 171

7/10/12 11:46:09 AM#3

you forgot to add the pvp, and more skill based combat (daoc style) not the buttom mashing or whatever its called :)

  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/10/12 11:57:38 AM#4
Originally posted by rottN

you forgot to add the pvp, and more skill based combat (daoc style) not the buttom mashing or whatever its called :)

Yeah I like PVP but I'd like to have a top heavy PVE gameplay. It's hard to balance PVE with PVP. You have to give and take one of the two. I am all about balance. You should see my combat mechanics, they are far from button smashing heh. I should elaborate more on that in the OP.

  rottN

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/03
Posts: 171

7/10/12 12:06:04 PM#5

Well it would work out (imo) if there was some kind of "bonus" for lets say owning sertan things/area`s in the world. Im again thinking of the way daoc worked with relics/keeps ect. (im a huge fan of daoc and pvp in general, as you may have noticed)

I know you cant focus fully on both, but i still think you can make it really close... but again, thats my opinion :)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19498

7/10/12 1:00:51 PM#6
Originally posted by Eronakis

 - A community first game. This means grouping content will be rewarded moreso than solo play. Solo content will be available as well. A ratio of about 60 grouping, and 40 percent solo content.
 
Group first is already in WOW. LFD levels much faster, with better items, than solo-ing. "Community first" is a red herring. If i can play with my friends, and make some online, that is quite enough.
 
- Realistic graphics, (no towers for shoulder item graphics) a world that has a balance of realism and fantasy.
 
Nah. I much prefer graphics that look good and interesting. It is a fantasy world. There is no reason to be realisitc. I MUCH prefer the animated weapons in WOW (with rotating stuff, or a moving eyeball) than the more boring looiking stuff in SKYRIM. Art design is a preference thing.
 
- A vast seamless world that will captivate you to explore and adventure on a single shard server. Possibly no instances.
 
Nah .. won't play a game without instances. I have not yet seen non-instanced dungeons done well.
 
- There are dozens of ways to play a class, completely up to the player.
 
Already in games like Diablo 3. For example, there are at least several viable builds for the wiz. In fact, the latest craze is a melee build (which personally i don't like nor use).
 
 
- AI that will be very intelligent. For an example, whereas a more militaristic mob will adapt while in combat to your fighting style so you'd always want to be on your toes.
 
Already tried. Back in WOTLK tier 9, there is this faction champion encounter that does not use the trinity. The mobs will use player abilities, and target healers/mage first. The result? Players complained that it is too hard and they nerf it.
 
The point ... making it too hard, making mob too intelligence is not necessarily fun. Case in point, any PC can run a chess program that beat 99.9999999% of the population. You will have NO CHANCE against it. You know what the devs do? They spent effort making the chess program making human like mistakes .. so the game will be more fun.
 

 

 

  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/10/12 3:37:45 PM#7

Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2188

7/10/12 6:41:42 PM#8

wow. just about everything i'd like to see in an mmo. thanks.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

7/10/12 9:52:26 PM#9

I'm part of the older generation of MMO players and I have no real interest in: challenge being a part of every activity, realistic graphics, seamless world, adaptive AI, the main plot line, or real military strategy in raid campaigns. Actually, did Everquest have even a single one of these things?

  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/10/12 11:32:00 PM#10
Originally posted by Disdena

I'm part of the older generation of MMO players and I have no real interest in: challenge being a part of every activity, realistic graphics, seamless world, adaptive AI, the main plot line, or real military strategy in raid campaigns. Actually, did Everquest have even a single one of these things?

Well in principle some of the things. The game mechanics for EQ was rather simple but yet was still fun and had a vast array of options. It was still a themepark game.  EQ was very challenging in different aspects. There's a death penality thread on here about how in EQ when you had to be on your toes because of the harsh death penality. Even though the graphics were low, it still felt like a world. In most zones felt like I was traveling in a wilderness if you will. What I was trying to captivate is the EQ principles but yet allow for the new age innovation. Didn't want to write a EQ clone, but something somewhat unique...

  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/13/12 3:08:10 PM#11

Hmm Im surprised that not many people commented on this. I suppos everyone still wants the wow model or sandbox..

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19498

7/13/12 3:13:21 PM#12
Originally posted by Eronakis

Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

hmm .. i *am* the oldest generation of MMO players. I started BEFORE UO in a precursor of MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar.

But like you said, this style of game is not for me. I don't have that much time anymore, and games need to be fun right from the start. I don't play games to socialize, and i certainly don't play games for the time sinks.

I quit EQ after 1 year because it wasn't very good in combat mechanics, and it was horrible in camping/time sinks. Modern mmos fixed all those problems.

Oh, while i play many MMOs (must have 10 on my laptop right now), they don't monopolize my attention. There are other fun entertainment out there.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19498

7/13/12 3:14:09 PM#13
Originally posted by Disdena

I'm part of the older generation of MMO players and I have no real interest in: challenge being a part of every activity, realistic graphics, seamless world, adaptive AI, the main plot line, or real military strategy in raid campaigns. Actually, did Everquest have even a single one of these things?

Well, all EQ has is endless grind and camping.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18987

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/13/12 3:17:44 PM#14
Originally posted by Eronakis

Hmm Im surprised that not many people commented on this. I suppos everyone still wants the wow model or sandbox..

OP treads dangerously close to many people's TLDR threshold, hence the limited commentary I think.

Now I need to go back and read it myself.  (hey, it's late on a Friday afternoon)

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Alders

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1686

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

7/13/12 3:20:50 PM#15

I often wonder why FFXI is always left off lists of  "old school" MMO's.  It had everything on that list except a seemless world.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

7/13/12 3:37:03 PM#16
Originally posted by Eronakis

Here are some key features that I believe would make the "Holy Grail" mmo for the older generation of mmo gamers. That generation consists of gamers who played EQ, UO, AC, DaOC. Now, these features are geared towards a certain niche and won't accomodate all of those games. I am one of those old generation players and would like to see the mmo industry move into a different direction. Now, I am not saying these features for an mmo are only for the older generation gamer, but more so any gamer that is sick of the new model. These features include the first principles of what mmo's should be and who is not looking for instant gratification.

 

 - A community first game. This means grouping content will be rewarded moreso than solo play. Solo content will be available as well. A ratio of about 60 grouping, and 40 percent solo content.
 
I agree with community first but all content should be geared for a three man group. This ensures that there is alot more content for duos and solo players. I also believe in community projects like building bridges and mining to unlock content.
 
 A game where wisdom and challenge is a factor every time you log in. This does not include time sinks, but moreso strategy of combat, navagation or crafting.
 
I agree.
 
- Top heavy PVE oriented gameplay. Hardcore PVE needs to make a comeback but implemented correctly.
 
Im ok as long as the endgame is not focused on raiding.
 
- Realistic graphics, (no towers for shoulder item graphics) a world that has a balance of realism and fantasy.
 
I prefer really good artwork, but im open to realistic graphics as long as they arent too shiny.
 
- A vast seamless world that will captivate you to explore and adventure on a single shard server. Possibly no instances.
 
I agree
 
- In-depth class design which will immerse you directly into a class. Classes are easy to learn but hard to master.
 
I would prefer unique skill based design.
 
- There are dozens of ways to play a class, completely up to the player.
 
Sure, why not.
 
- Stats are universal and are not dependent on a set of archetypes.
 
i prefer minimal stats.
 
 
- Two immense combat mechanics that allow tons of strategy with player adaptability within the fluidity of combat. Combat mechanics complement class design to allow a vast array of many options. Must become a tactician. Can't go into many battles without strategy of some sort. 
 
I would like  real time combat with depth. Easy to learn , hard to master.
 
- AI that will be very intelligent. For an example, whereas a more militaristic mob will adapt while in combat to your fighting style so you'd always want to be on your toes.
 
I would like intelligence of ai to match the mobs.. bears act like bears.. soldiers act like soldiers...
 
- A death penality that isn't too harsh nor non existent. A death penality that would enhance you to be mor careful on your journeys.
 
I prefer a life bonus where life gets a little easier and a small number of skills become available for success in combat. The bonus would have 4 tiers and you move back and forth among the tiers as you die or survive.
 
- A main plot line that will twist and turn you and flip you upside down. However, players can directly influence the world and the plot to have different possible climax's and outcomes.
 
I would like 3 main pve "enemies" that are always trying to seige the player population.
 
- A player driven economy with separate crafting classes where player can establish their own markets.
 
I prefer that any player can get all the skills but only use a few at a time.
 
- NPC's don't necessarly drop items but materials to make that item. Players get to decide what stats they want to put in different items depending on different variables.
 
I prefer both items and materials that can be manipulated by those with creafting skills.
 
- Raid Campaigns for progressing players and end game content that will immerse you into possible real militaristic medieval strategies.
 
raids only through the world enemy seiges on the player populations.
 
 
So what do you think? Do all or most or even some features instrest you? Should this be the way for mmos? Discuss your thhoughts.
 

 see above in green!

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18987

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/13/12 3:48:36 PM#17
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Eronakis

Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

hmm .. i *am* the oldest generation of MMO players. I started BEFORE UO in a precursor of MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar.

But like you said, this style of game is not for me. I don't have that much time anymore, and games need to be fun right from the start. I don't play games to socialize, and i certainly don't play games for the time sinks.

I quit EQ after 1 year because it wasn't very good in combat mechanics, and it was horrible in camping/time sinks. Modern mmos fixed all those problems.

Oh, while i play many MMOs (must have 10 on my laptop right now), they don't monopolize my attention. There are other fun entertainment out there.

Now this makes a point about you more than anything else, you really aren't a MMORPG player, you are a game player.  (like, an arcade game player) 

You like jumping in and out, MMO, single player, probably even a few consoles, (bet you wish you could put a quarter in the slot)   but the traditional MMORPG player generally sticks with one or two MMORPGs over the long term.

I think that's the sort of target market the OP is aiming for in his suggestions, and I don't think age has much to do with it, just a matter of what people look for in their gaming.

Now, back to the OP, trouble with many of the suggestions is they are very broad, and would be interpreted quite differently by various player types.  It's hard to take those concepts and deliver them in a way that appeals to a broad enough group of players.

Look at your response to his suggestion of a more group oriented game, you point out the latest LFG/Dungeon finder tools and say, "see, plenty of grouping".  Yeah, you guys are all playing together, but you aren't grouping (as in socializing) in the same manner that was done in years past.

So they may look the same, but they are worlds apart, and therin lies the problem.  You like the tools, I agree they are necessary due to the modern game MMORPG design, but they aren't the same thing at all as what the OP is describing.

Unfortunately, what the OP also said is no time sinks, he doesn't realize the forced down time in between combat was a vital component of the grouping mechanics back in the day because it gave players time to actually socialize.  When your group might have to wait anywhere from 3 - 10 minutes for power to come back/rez sickness to wear off it gave you a great opportunity to socialize, (or go read, I did a lot of that too, especially on 15 minute horse rides in DAOC) but this isn't something a person like you enjoyed I gather.  

And you were in the majority, which Developers figured out and started changing MMO's to fit what the larger community wanted.

Pity.

Oh well, doesn't really matter what we say here, unless I win the $500M Powerball we're never going to see an old school MMORPG like I would like to see made, so better find the fun where you can.   Fortunately things are looking up a bit with some of the more modern titles.

 

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Eronakis

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Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/13/12 5:14:16 PM#18
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Eronakis

Hmm Im surprised that not many people commented on this. I suppos everyone still wants the wow model or sandbox..

OP treads dangerously close to many people's TLDR threshold, hence the limited commentary I think.

Now I need to go back and read it myself.  (hey, it's late on a Friday afternoon)

You're better than that Ky, come on!  lol

But seriously, I did assume and categorize that if one did play those games, these features would entice them. I should of named the thread, "Is this a step into teh right direction?"

  Eronakis

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Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/13/12 5:25:10 PM#19
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Eronakis

Well nariusseldon, maybe this style of game is not for you. There are different types of mmo players. Like I said above, these features would be me apt to entice an older generation of mmo players... who don't want the instant gratification...like you do..

hmm .. i *am* the oldest generation of MMO players. I started BEFORE UO in a precursor of MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar.

But like you said, this style of game is not for me. I don't have that much time anymore, and games need to be fun right from the start. I don't play games to socialize, and i certainly don't play games for the time sinks.

I quit EQ after 1 year because it wasn't very good in combat mechanics, and it was horrible in camping/time sinks. Modern mmos fixed all those problems.

Oh, while i play many MMOs (must have 10 on my laptop right now), they don't monopolize my attention. There are other fun entertainment out there.

Yeah, everyone has different styles of games they like. I don't mind some instant gratification unless it offers a challenge. I remember when I first played EQ, I made a Paladin and I was like auto attack... really.. I went back a few months later and made a wizard and enjoyed it ever since.

  Eronakis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/17/08
Posts: 1980

 
OP  7/13/12 5:44:44 PM#20
Originally posted by rungard
 
- A death penality that isn't too harsh nor non existent. A death penality that would enhance you to be mor careful on your journeys.
 
I prefer a life bonus where life gets a little easier and a small number of skills become available for success in combat. The bonus would have 4 tiers and you move back and forth among the tiers as you die or survive.
 

 

 see above in green!

Thanks for the taking the time and comment rungard. Seems like we agree with most of the stuff, except for the big one being classes vs skills heh. Your idea for rewarding staying alive versus death is actually interesting. I wonder what kind of reception it would get and how it could be balanced within gameplay.

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