Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Bardus

 

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

You missed my point.

You can pray all you want for the sky to be green - it's still going to be blue tomorrow.

 

I wish that was the case with SWG. It changed colours twice! It went from sandbox to theme park / sandbox

MMOs - They can change.  The sky does not

SWTOR is going to have to change else it will get shut down.

Because the construction of the SWG world allowed it.

You cannot turn SWToR into a sandbox. To make it a pervasive more seemless world would take a re-building from the bottom up. At best they could give it sandbox features - but to me that would be pointless in the instanced, compartmentalized world they constructed.

They can make changes to SWToR, but they can only attempt to make the best lobby/themepark mmo - or start from scratch to make the game you guys want.

And really, if VG can still be alive with its abysmal numbers, you really think half a million subs is cause for a shutdown?

 

You can not go by Vanguard, it does not have EA or LA to worry about and other stuff, otherwise SWG would still be active too.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Bardus

 

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

You missed my point.

You can pray all you want for the sky to be green - it's still going to be blue tomorrow.

 

I wish that was the case with SWG. It changed colours twice! It went from sandbox to theme park / sandbox

MMOs - They can change.  The sky does not

SWTOR is going to have to change else it will get shut down.

Because the construction of the SWG world allowed it.

You cannot turn SWToR into a sandbox. To make it a pervasive more seemless world would take a re-building from the bottom up. At best they could give it sandbox features - but to me that would be pointless in the instanced, compartmentalized world they constructed.

They can make changes to SWToR, but they can only attempt to make the best lobby/themepark mmo - or start from scratch to make the game you guys want.

And really, if VG can still be alive with its abysmal numbers, you really think half a million subs is cause for a shutdown?

 

You can not go by Vanguard, it does not have EA or LA to worry about and other stuff, otherwise SWG would still be active too.

So you think EA and LA will shut down a game with half a million players or more? Isn't that like saying, well I wanted a million dollars, but I only got half a million dollars. So I threw it out.

Originally posted by rammur65

This is the reason i hate this site now days sooo many haters and freakin doomsayin tards dating all the way back to 2002ish when this site was put up everyone just complains on how every single game sucks ToR has not failed  well i guess it fails because it doesnt have the huge player base wow has blah whatever you dont need 15 million subs to be a good game 1 the game hasnt even been out a year it hasnt even hit the content prodiction stage yet helll the wheels havnt really begun to spin it may not be the greatest game out there but it is a game to keep an eye on. Now lotro believe it or not is making a pretty damn good come back the f2p model gotta be one of the best ive seen in the f2p market cant really bitch about a game that is free hell you can earn tokens in the game even. other than that people sayin game suck and blah blah i think its time for you guys to find a new hobbie and stop polluting the freakin forums with so much hate its not politics either like the game or gtho simplee.

It is not just this site, it is also from the horses mouths of EA/Bioware. They have admitted that the game was not the success they hoped for, and has dropped in priority of thie games to focus attention on, plus the loss of loads of staff. SWTOR is not going to reach the potential it was going to be.

LOTRO was a success through and through, even before F2P, and won loads of awards, on its own merits, and virtually each year it has been active.. SWTOR only won awards before it was released! I doubt it will get more awards from now on

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Bardus

 

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

You missed my point.

You can pray all you want for the sky to be green - it's still going to be blue tomorrow.

 

I wish that was the case with SWG. It changed colours twice! It went from sandbox to theme park / sandbox

MMOs - They can change.  The sky does not

SWTOR is going to have to change else it will get shut down.

Because the construction of the SWG world allowed it.

You cannot turn SWToR into a sandbox. To make it a pervasive more seemless world would take a re-building from the bottom up. At best they could give it sandbox features - but to me that would be pointless in the instanced, compartmentalized world they constructed.

They can make changes to SWToR, but they can only attempt to make the best lobby/themepark mmo - or start from scratch to make the game you guys want.

And really, if VG can still be alive with its abysmal numbers, you really think half a million subs is cause for a shutdown?

 

You can not go by Vanguard, it does not have EA or LA to worry about and other stuff, otherwise SWG would still be active too.

So you think EA and LA will shut down a game with half a million players or more? Isn't that like saying, well I wanted a million dollars, but I only got half a million dollars. So I threw it out.

I'm saying it will not have the subs/players eventually, - even the most loyal players as of today will get bored of the game soon, but LA shut down SWG without caring how many players could have subbed last year, as they shut it down before people had the chance to sub. The free CTS + the unplanned 45 days was bringing the game back to life, and quadupled the population.  They did not care to wait a month or so and still give plenty notice for its closure, to see if people would not sub or more people came back to play. LA showed that SWG was shutting down, no matter how many people subbed, as they never gave people the chance. Millions could have resubbed and LA lost all that, as they got the game shut down announcement 1 or 2 months too early. It may not have been millions, but no one will know now, and no one has a crystal ball to say that it would not have been for 100%, but I still find it stupid of LA not to give it 1 or 2 months longer to see how many subbed after June 2011.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Bardus

 

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

You missed my point.

You can pray all you want for the sky to be green - it's still going to be blue tomorrow.

 

I wish that was the case with SWG. It changed colours twice! It went from sandbox to theme park / sandbox

MMOs - They can change.  The sky does not

SWTOR is going to have to change else it will get shut down.

Because the construction of the SWG world allowed it.

You cannot turn SWToR into a sandbox. To make it a pervasive more seemless world would take a re-building from the bottom up. At best they could give it sandbox features - but to me that would be pointless in the instanced, compartmentalized world they constructed.

They can make changes to SWToR, but they can only attempt to make the best lobby/themepark mmo - or start from scratch to make the game you guys want.

And really, if VG can still be alive with its abysmal numbers, you really think half a million subs is cause for a shutdown?

 

You can not go by Vanguard, it does not have EA or LA to worry about and other stuff, otherwise SWG would still be active too.

So you think EA and LA will shut down a game with half a million players or more? Isn't that like saying, well I wanted a million dollars, but I only got half a million dollars. So I threw it out.

I'm saying it will not have the subs/players eventually, - even the most loyal players as of today will get bored of the game soon, but LA shut down SWG without caring how many players could have subbed last year, as they shut it down before people had the chance to sub. The free CTS + the unplanned 45 days was bringing the game back to life, and quadupled the population.  They did not care to wait a month or so and still give plenty notice for its closure, to see if people would not sub or more people came back to play. LA showed that SWG was shutting down, no matter how many people subbed, as they never gave people the chance. Millions could have resubbed and LA lost all that, as they got the game shut down announcement 1 or 2 months too early. It may not have been millions, but no one will know now, and no one has a crystal ball to say that it would not have been for 100%, but I still find it stupid of LA not to give it 1 or 2 months longer to see how many subbed after June 2011.

If SOE had taken SWG and made it free to play / cash shop, galaxies would have garnered 100k+'s worth of new subs practically overnight. Fundamentally it was one of the best MMOs of all-time.

Originally posted by ktanner3

*snip*

Unless you can produce a quote from a verified  source, it's just rumour and gossip. You should be able to look back at the thread history of this forum because the game was covered quite extensively. Every little thing that was said by Bioware was put under a microscope and analyzed. If you can't find it there then it didn't happen.

 Yes, because they never ever delete anything from their forums and other sources. There's a huge difference between deleting something from the forums and it never having happened in the first place. History doesn't change because EA dislikes something enough to have it deleted.

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

Originally posted by ktanner3

*snip*

Unless you can produce a quote from a verified  source, it's just rumour and gossip. You should be able to look back at the thread history of this forum because the game was covered quite extensively. Every little thing that was said by Bioware was put under a microscope and analyzed. If you can't find it there then it didn't happen.

 Yes, because they never ever delete anything from their forums and other sources. There's a huge difference between deleting something from the forums and it never having happened in the first place. History doesn't change because EA dislikes something enough to have it deleted.

 Forgive me for not taking the word of a forum that has a history of posters  making stuff up. I followed this game for three years and don't remember that quote either. So either verify your sources or don't spout what you can't back up. .

This is easy. I played beta and they basically shat on the testers from day 1 to release.

Originally posted by Zorgo

 

snip
 

So you think EA and LA will shut down a game with half a million players or more? Isn't that like saying, well I wanted a million dollars, but I only got half a million dollars. So I threw it out.

Scenario 1: SWTOR sustains 1M+ subscribers. EA recover their investment. Better still it gets 1.2M which was the assumption when they bought Bioware. This is the wanted 1 million dollars. EA are happy and tell the world they are in the money. Odd then that EA played down the 1.3M number.

Scenario 2: SWTOR has 500k+ subs but less than 1M.  SWTOR is unlikely to recover the investment but on an on-going basis is making money i.e. subs exceed running costs - those costs including a sull development team. This is the only got a half million dollars scenario. Odd then that EA seem to have made large cuts to the team.

Scenario 3:SWTOR has less than 500k paying subs. This is the losing half a million dollars option. In this scenarion the first thing you do is seek to reduce costs. (Lightbulb moment!). What EA do after they have reduced their costs depends on what their options are. EA have an agreement with LA that will cover:

- The minimum that EA have to run SWTOR for - at least 2 years with a maximum of between 3 and say 5 years before LA have the right to pull the plug. 

- This will be tied to a termination clause that lessens over time - so the longer EA have run the game the less it will cost them if they close it down.

- Options to extend the agreement.

Think of it like paying rent on an apartment;  you might have an initial 6 month deal, option to extend to 2 years and if you cancel early you pay at least 3 months.

The nightmare scenario is under 500k subs early in its life. And if they were very confident they will have pushed LA for a multi-year deal in return for which LA will have made sure they got decent termination clauses.

We knew SWTOR would fail for a number of reasons.

1. MMORPGs are not singleplayer games. You can never make a good singleplayer experience in an MMO.

2. The more singleplayer focused a game is, the more time the devs have to spend making new content. Eventually the player will outstrip the devs, and then leave.

3. They made it just like WoW, and WoW already isn't very well designed, but gets a free pass because of brand name recognition.

4. They contradicted their own lore and made their setting essentially episode 4 in all regards except name.

5. EA, a company known for ruining good IPs and MMOs (WAR, DAoC, Ultima) plus Bioware, a company known for making SINGLEPLAYER GAMES, were cooperating.

6. They instanced everything.

Originally posted by Garvon3

We knew SWTOR would fail for a number of reasons.

 

1. MMORPGs are not singleplayer games. You can never make a good singleplayer experience in an MMO.

2. The more singleplayer focused a game is, the more time the devs have to spend making new content. Eventually the player will outstrip the devs, and then leave.

3. They made it just like WoW, and WoW already isn't very well designed, but gets a free pass because of brand name recognition.

4. They contradicted their own lore and made their setting essentially episode 4 in all regards except name.

5. EA, a company known for ruining good IPs and MMOs (WAR, DAoC, Ultima) plus Bioware, a company known for making SINGLEPLAYER GAMES, were cooperating.

6. They instanced everything.

Could you give some few examples of well designed games for me to try please!?

edit, mmo-games that is!

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by mikahr

Originally posted by ktanner3

How many have been in the 10 million range since WOW launched? How many have been in the 2 million range? Some of you talk as if any game that doesn't hit subs in the millions are failures. If you're going to use that standard, then everything is fair game. Especially when we're talking about a game that was released just a year before WOW. 

Are we in that boat again?

If i make indie game and want 5000 players, if i get them its success.

If i make most expencive game in history (200-300m$), anounce to the world im going after WOW and its numbers, but after shitty numbers i actually get, >500k i lay off half the staff (even if i proudly repeated i wont do that ever) and close 90% of servers down because i cannot cover my expenses and profit is a pipe dream, im EPIC FAILURE.

They did not announce to the world that they were going after WOW numbers. The only people saying that are folks like yourself who took a dev comment and twisted it to suit your purpose. The only numbers I saw from the actual people behind the making of the game, was 500,000 to break even. Nowhere did they say {"We are looking to dethrone WOW."

And don't even bother quoting the dev WOW comment because it isn't going to fly with me. That was about the design of the game, not the expectations of what they consider successful.

 

You are right...NOT.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/306437/bioware-old-republic-will-more-than-compete-with-world-of-warcraft/

Just one of many jewels. Oh yes, greed overtook them and all they could see were WoW's numbers and income. Too bad they failed - epic.

Originally posted by Slayra

You managed to use the "word" -WoW- 16 times in two short paragraphs. GG.

+1.

OK post by OP thou.  There were a LOT of signs that TOR was headed for lame status, his among them.  Throwing together a game that cuts social, player driven, repeatable content for single player-esqe content is just not going to last, but EA probably never wanted it to.

I dont think they had any real interest in creating a brand or a long term player base.

I could write a multiple-page post about what is wrong with TOR and why the game fails to keep interest, maybe I will once I actually leave it.

But OP's reasons have nothing to do with it:

* Grind and lack of options at endgame

* Stupid design decisions and lack of connection to the playerbase

* Being super slow and ineffective in responding to the above problems

* No enticing vision for the future

That basically sums up why people left the game, the game itself (from 1-50) is sound: combat is good (unless you hate hotkey combat), story and quests are good despite huge differences in quality and there is a ton of content during level-up (making you level up too fast: one of the stupid design decisions) as well as a ton of group oriented stuff.

Originally posted by superniceguy

Originally posted by Zorgo

 

So you think EA and LA will shut down a game with half a million players or more? Isn't that like saying, well I wanted a million dollars, but I only got half a million dollars. So I threw it out.

I'm saying it will not have the subs/players eventually, - even the most loyal players as of today will get bored of the game soon, but LA shut down SWG without caring how many players could have subbed last year, as they shut it down before people had the chance to sub. The free CTS + the unplanned 45 days was bringing the game back to life, and quadupled the population.  They did not care to wait a month or so and still give plenty notice for its closure, to see if people would not sub or more people came back to play. LA showed that SWG was shutting down, no matter how many people subbed, as they never gave people the chance. Millions could have resubbed and LA lost all that, as they got the game shut down announcement 1 or 2 months too early. It may not have been millions, but no one will know now, and no one has a crystal ball to say that it would not have been for 100%, but I still find it stupid of LA not to give it 1 or 2 months longer to see how many subbed after June 2011.

Maybe you are right, but I'm not sure that's the case. I think there are hundreds of thousands that for some reason don't have the same problems with it as I do, or you do. I'm still amazed that EQ2 has players - it baffles me every day that there are that many people who hold a different opinion than I. I do recognize however that EQ2 still has a healthy enough pop to warrant continued development on a game I personally feel is complete trash. Same with SWToR - I don't fully understand it, but apparently there are a lot of folks that like stuff I don't.

This makes me feel as if your opinion of SWToR's longevity is tied to your personal disappointments with LA. It seems that you hold a grudge which may be coloring your objectivity.  I understand that it is a bummer for SWG players that LA pulled the plug. I can understand how you would question their business sense. Unfortunately, that is where we part. Your idea is that, 'they did it before, they can do it again'. My point is that they won't do it to a game that has 3X or more subs than SWG ever did. And the argument of, 'Millions could have subed to SWG and LA still would have shut it down' is an unarguable argument. That doesn't prove anything. It is pure speculation based upon your negative opinion of LA. You say, 'if LA had given more notice' (but they didn't). "Then it may have attracted more subs" - (but this is unknowable) - "And LA would have still shut it down" (which you are guessing). So you are forming your opinion on how SWToR will do in the future based on how you guess LA would have acted if a make-believe scenario had happened.  I am sure they are massively dissappointed in the results of SWToR. They should be. And you and I agree that it is their own fault for not making a SW game that could attract millions. But, if I were in their position, I would be doing everything I could to stabilize the population and make the game profitable, although much less profitable than expected. I just think there is too much money, and still too many players to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I also think that once the day comes when they reach SWG numbers and perhaps before, they will change to F2P and thus SWToR will begin a completely different path than SWG ever went down. If it goes F2P, we may never see the game die. Because at that point, its strength won't rely on a stable population in it for the long haul, but will rely instead on a revolving population - people not in it for the long haul, people who don't plan on spending years in game. They'll develop the cash shop around the basic amount of time people have been shown to be active, let's say 2 or 3 months, and the cash shop will contain about 2 or 3 months worth of crap to buy which will net them more than a sub fee would.  But every month or two there is a new group in game who will spend 15 to 100 bucks over the course of 2 months and then leave the game. This F2P crowd already exists in the millions, and there are obviously a rotating group of games which try to capture that audience for a few months. And the development direction is based upon those players patterns. They will be replaced by a new person who does the same. And bingo, they are making money hand over fist, because they don't neeed you to stay and play, because someone is going to join up in your place and spend the same amount in the cash shop.

That's why I don't feel SWToR is going anywhere. I don't like it. But it may be reality.

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Very true, and oddly, the same can be said for LOTRO.  The most popular fantasy franchise in history, released right on the tails of three huge films and, IMO, it disappointed.  The devs gave us the story instead of the world.  Too linear, too contrived.

But could have been a huge, mysterious world with all sorts of hidden dungeons, elven kingdoms, haunted castles, forests, and wondrous things to explore.

Maybe next time they'll give us Middle Earth instead of a movie.

TBH LOTRO has been extremely successful.  Anyone expecting 'another wow' from any game is deluding themselves.  The odds of there ever being a repeat of WOW are slim, at best.  WOW benefitted from a perfect storm of situations.  I don't see the scenario repeating itself.  

As to why SWTOR failed?  (technically that's a giant overstatement).... It didn't... but it did fail to do as well as many expected it to... so... as to why SWTOR has been less successful than it should have been:  It has nothing to do with anything the OP said but, rather, with some basic problems:

1) Lack of RVR style PVP in a game set in a war between the republic an the sith empire

2) Lack of a useful group finder  (I hear they added one finally)

3) Lack of enough content to allow for a diverse levelling experience... other than the class specific quests players pretty much have to burn the same content over and over again to level

4) Lack of personal customization (apparently they're finally working on this)

5) Shitty crafting system (still is)

6) Race is meaningless  (Should be definite and meaningful pros and cons to choosing various races)

7) Lack of guild controls/banks at launch

8) And this one really is one of the most important:  Pathetic customer service and support.... this game has the most abyssmal customer support that I've ever seen in an MMO.  

9) Another big one that can't be overlooked:  The game engine chosen.... seriously... BioWare's decision to go with an un-tested 3rd party game engine (Hero Engine) when the developers of the game engine themselves failed to even produce their OWN MMO they were working on still baffles me. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with the Engine itself... BioWare's decision to buy the engine and use it *before it was finished* is the mistake.  The engine itself is much better than the one BioWare went with and (failed) to enhance properly.  they deliberately bought unfinished product saying they had enough engineers to customize it themselves.  This has led to game issues out the wazoo which are probably all able to be tied back to the fact that they used an unfinished engine as the foundation of the game.

The list goes on.  The basic concept of the game was ok.  Most people love it for the first month or so... it's once they hit end game and there's nothing to do and they wind up making alt after alt that people get frustrated and leave.   It's also whenever anyone tries to get into larger scaled PVP on ilum because BioWare's implementation of the engine doesn't handle multiple characters in the same area well.   Because of these issues PVP end game content is lackluster, at best, and doesn't satisfy players well.  Because there's no variety to the game, not really, and the end game is so lackluster.  Compound this with the oversaturation of servers at launch which caused ghost towns to develop which drove even more players away and that's why the game isn't doing as well as it expected.  Citing "WOW" as having anything to do with it is ludicrous. 

Si basically everything I said...

Originally posted by Xobdnas

Si basically everything I said...

Except you didn't say anything like that at all, all you said was 'mix PRE CU SWG with WOW and winner!' which isn't what I said at all.  Nor would that necessarily be a winner.  It's easy to look at Pre-CU SWG with rose colored glasses.  I liked the game too, but there are a slew of reasons why pre-CU SWG never had more than 300,000 subs (EVER) and had the highest turnover rate of any MMO around.  People didn't like it, it was boring.  Only true sandbox lovers (like me) really enjoyed it.

BioWare's idea isn't a bad one, it's just got some major issues with some mechanics that need to be fixed, and some really bad decisions around launch time (really... 250 servers?) that have combined to make it less successful than it could have been.

But, as I said already, calling it a failure is silly... It's not a failure, it's just not as big a success as it should have been.  It's failed to reach it's potential (which is a huge shame) but it's not failed as a game.

There's a huge difference.

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Very true, and oddly, the same can be said for LOTRO.  The most popular fantasy franchise in history, released right on the tails of three huge films and, IMO, it disappointed.  The devs gave us the story instead of the world.  Too linear, too contrived.

But could have been a huge, mysterious world with all sorts of hidden dungeons, elven kingdoms, haunted castles, forests, and wondrous things to explore.

Maybe next time they'll give us Middle Earth instead of a movie.

May be, like Star Wars, we could be given the world of Middle Earth long before the war of the ring. Maybe mid-way through the 2nd Age? It would be to LOTRO what ToR is to SWG. An open world with no rails... now that I could live in.

Well, it was developed by BioWare, published by EA and had Lucas Arts governing the whole thing.

BioWare is known for flashy cinematic console RPGs that are completely linear and lack any online capability.  So, it's only natural that their next step would be an MMORPG, right?

Electronic Arts is basically a giant beast that devours smaller studios and forces them to make garbage games, because they're reportedly profitable or something, but we all know how successful that's been in recent years.  Mass Effect 20 anybody?

As for Lucas Arts, just google Jar Jar Binks and know how much George Lucas gives a sh!t.

Ladies and gentlemen, we've got a recipe for success here!  Might as well call it A-Team Online or something, because it's gonna dominate the genre!  Seriously though, it doesn't take a genius to know that they all suck hard.