It reminds me of gearscore. You don't have x minimum level of gear? Get outta here, scrub.

I think the only way that I've seen people say this game has levels is by saying you need a certain number of skill points to wear gear. That does sound a lot like levels. It's just that they are spread out over ~220 skill points instead of 60 (or whatever the level cap is in a standard MMORPG these days).

In WoW, you gain levels and gear has level requirements.

In TSW, you gain skill points and gear has skillpoint requirements.

That's as close as I can get to saying the game has a sort of level system in place. But really, who cares? You just have to decide if you like the system in place.

Originally posted by Kuinn

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
 

It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".

 

A progression system is levels.

 

I disagree, if the game would only have the ability unlocking/progression system but no QL system, it would still have progression but it would not feel like there's levels in the game. The QL system feels like there's concrete levels from 1 to 10, the ability progression has nothing to do with it.

RPG of any shape of form has levels, it may not be so cut and dry that has a number assigned to it, but its still levels. A level-less game is a game like the sims. Developers may do a good job of disguising it, they do may do a bad job of disguising it, but none the less there is a level system.

This argument that "insert game" doesnt have levels is an argument of posturing. Its basically fans acting like their turd doesnt stink. For some reason this argument has is some how justifacation that their game is better than other games because it doesnt have levels. Somehow admitting that it has levels is damnation for the game. Its all bogus, all MMORPGS are level based..... somehow, someway someshape. I am not ranting on you kuinn so please dont take it like that, as your response did not come off as arrogant as some posts that I have seen on this topic over the years.

Last time I really got into this debate really hard was on FFXIV pre-launch, I was a huge fan, mainly because of XI. Other XIV fans were going around gloating that it wasnt going to have levels, they wore it as a badge, it made me sick reading that garbage. MMO's have levels, progression is levels. If it doesnt have levels I should be able to go into the game on day one and do anything I want, and be equal to anything a guy who has been playing for years can do. Zone based progression, gear based progression, level based progression, it doesnt matter its progression therfore its essentially levels, just not the old fashion cut and dry levels.

Originally posted by Jesterftk

i have a QL 8 Hammer and a ql 1 shotgun. rest is a mix of 3 -8.

What level am i?

can be taken as level 8 by yr highest QL. Because you need yr QL8 hammer to tackle the most current zone, dungeon and pvp. Switch to other weapons u are just level 1 like every other MMO with classes and levels except that you have the freedom to instant boost yr level up a few notches with your spare skill points. 

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Originally posted by toddze

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.       Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.    But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.

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This argument is getting tired. If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels. For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post). Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content. It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".  

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A progression system is levels.

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There are a lot of dungeon groups who are doing gear checks...and often they are setting the requierment QL at or above what drops in the dungeon they are running...

They want a super fast run, will skip all trash possible, and will probably run it again after.

This doesnt mean you need QL 5 to run inferno...not even close, its just what they want to ensure a boringly easy run.

Im not really sure why people so desperately want to find a level system in a game that has none.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by toddze

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Originally posted by lizardbones  

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Originally posted by Lord.Bachus While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.       Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared.    But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.

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This argument is getting tired. If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels. For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post). Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content. It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".  

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A progression system is levels.

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No. Levels are a form of progression system. Not all progression systems are levels.

For instance, the gear a character gets in WoW, after reaching max level determines how powerful the character is, but it's not the character's "Level". The character's "Level" is 85. The "Level" determines what instances the character can walk in, how many points are available for the character's skill tree, and how far the character can progress in crafting. I'm reasonably sure that a character's gear doesn't stop a character from walking into any instances in TSW. I'm reasonably sure that a character's gear determines how many points a character can spend in the skill wheel. I'm also reasonably sure that a character's gear doesn't determine how far they can progress in crafting.

So TSW certainly has a progression system, and there are certainly elements of the game that are similar to levels, but it's not levels. It's just not the same thing.

 

Its the same thing, just a different form. There is level based levels, gear based levels, and even zone based levels. Just because you switch  from one form to another doesnt mean you dont have levels.

In random MMO "a" you can level to 70, then switch to raiding T1,t2,t3, At that point your not level based anymore but gear level based and zone level based. There may not be a number assigned to you gear or level, but its still a level.

Progression is levels,

Levels are levels

gear progression is levels

Zones progression is levels.

Your just looking at cold hard number levels. But that is far to narrow minded. its all "levels"  Everything thats progression based can be broken down into "levels" it may not have a number assigned to it, but that does not make it level-less.

Quality Levels found on your items are Levels, the end.  Stop being pedantic...

All MMOs make you log in....omg they are all the same.

Originally posted by Tyratops

Quality Levels found on your items are Levels, the end.  Stop being pedantic...

shhh you, somehow admiting that their game has levels is degrading, when every single RPG/mmorpg ever released is level based.

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by Tyratops

Quality Levels found on your items are Levels, the end.  Stop being pedantic...

shhh you, somehow admiting that their game has levels is degrading, when every single RPG/mmorpg ever released is level based.

Actually it is more that level systems are a very specific style of progression system that is a bundle of gear, ability, and stat progression thru the aquiring of exp on a leniar format. If you changed the fact of your gear is rated by a Quality level, to a quality rating of say A-T it would not be a level system. Yes it is a progression system yet it is overall a free-form progression system that allows you to chose when you aqure what largely with only afew requirements being met, where as a true level based progression system like all of the other games in mmos largely are much more a restrictve an determine route kind of progression with your. Also a progression system can be a leveling system, but not all progression systems are leveling systems,.

All rpg's are progression based, no matter how you do it or what you want to call it.

In UO you raised you skills by gaining experiance with or using items like swords, bows etc. yes you could use any weapon but you would be completley useless with out enough skill. Want to call it leveling your skills... go ahead.

In Wow you gained levels by gaining experiance, all kinds of weapons and armour are restricted by level. Quests are restricted by level. Want to call it leveling your level.... go ahead.

In TSW gaining experiance points gets you Action points and Skill points. You must have enough skill points to use certain weapons. There are no content or quest restrictions. If you do not have enough skill points you will suck. Want to cal it leveling you skills... go ahead.

Personaly I think progression with TSW has more in common with UO then WoW.

I think some of you are having a hard time following me. Sometimes when I say levels I am refering to the cold hard numerical level system. Other times I am not, For instance if you recieved armor A in game with str+ 8 then later recieved armor coat B  with str +10. Your Str level has increased  even though you physical "number level" did not, you still progressed. you still increased progression in this case is the same as levels,  just not numerical levels.

For example if i go bench press 200lbs one day then go in the next couple of days and brench press 210lbs. You could say my strength level increased even though there is no numerical level value. I still progressed, my str level increased. therfore there is a level.

Progression is synonomis with "levels"

Originally posted by toddze

I think some of you are having a hard time following me. Sometimes when I say levels I am refering to the cold hard numerical level system. Other times I am not, For instance if you recieved armor A in game with str+ 8 then later recieved armor coat B  with str +10. Your Str level has increased  even though you physical "number level" did not, you still progressed. you still increased progression in this case is the same as levels,  just not numerical levels.

For example if i go bench press 200lbs one day then go in the next couple of days and brench press 210lbs. You could say my strength level increased even though there is no numerical level value. I still progressed, my str level increased. therfore there is a level.

Progression is synonomis with "levels"

 

Sorry but you could jsut as well say that your stat advanced to a new numerical value, or to a new level, as such it is not a level system but a progresion based advancement system. Also in waht game does your stat ever called a level at all?, in most games your stats advance when you gain a new levell, or when you get better gear, or you train to improve your stats.

Also you have this backwards "Progression is synonomis with "levels" " as levels are very offen a form of progression yet are not the sole form of progression. the fact is that  funcom putting in ql over making the gear qualit rate (QR.) is a mistake but not trully actually making this game the same as any or all leveling games ever as only in the most basic ways is the progression similar to how leveling progression done.

Originally posted by Jesterftk

i have a QL 8 Hammer and a ql 1 shotgun. rest is a mix of 3 -8.

What level am i?

Give me every QL for each piece and I"ll tell you.

The very first reply to this thread destroyed the OP's premise. 

Calling the QL of a particular item or items you can equip your character's 'level' makes as much sense as calling how many hit points he has his level, or the total number of skill points he's earned his level. 

The game has a non-level-based progression system.  Can you draw some analogies between it and a level based system? Of course you can, because they are both progression systems. 

Originally posted by Jesterftk

i have a QL 8 Hammer and a ql 1 shotgun. rest is a mix of 3 -8.

What level am i?

i know the answer, you won't like it tho.

it's 42!

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
While there are no true levels, your gear is actually defining your level.  

 

 

Not that this is a strange thing, as it is how games like WoW work in endgame, personally i think it might even be better this way for gear based power systems, You just cant go to a dungeon when undergeared. 

 

But it is nonsense to say this game has no levels. Even worse, dont go to an area without the right level of gear, because the games becomes very hard and punishable by death for trying so.

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This argument is getting tired.

If it doesn't do everything that levels do in other games, then it's not levels.

For instance, in WoW's end game, your power level is determined by your gear. That isn't level, that's how powerful your gear is. This is how TSW works (according to your post).

Your Level in WoW determines whether or not you can walk into that raid to get more gear. TSW doesn't do this. You'll probably need help with that instance in TSW, but you're not stopped from walking in or completing the content.

It is a progression system, but it's not "Levels".

 

A progression system is levels.

Then there is no such thing as a leveless mmo, and all those threads advocating them are pointless.

Except it is levels, but, as the OP states, your level is dictated by your gear, not just how much XP you have.

Character Progression is really a very shallow, mostly horizontal progression system, yes. If you just look at that, it is a, relatively "levelless" MMO.

However, the gear system is tiered into 2 different progression types (like all MMOs). 1 is the Quality level, which dictates your combat "level", and rarity which dictates how strong you are at that level.

If all greens, blues, or prurples were basically the same stats within their color (i.e. no difference between a 'QL1' and 'QL9' weapon), I would agree that it was a levelless system.