Originally posted by negativf4kk

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Gem#Real_life_money_--.3E_in_game_money

Looks like P2W?

Nope, not pay to win. You will have the best gear statistically within hours of hitting max level. P2BP maybe! (Pay to be pretty)

Originally posted by Vunak23

Not like it wasnt expected GW1 was pay to win as well

Oh I would love to hear your explanation for this.

@Regomar: 

I'll break it down succintly, by game type. 

In structured PvP, you can't buy anything that helps you. Everyone has all the same gear stats, for free, all the time. No items from the cash shop benefit sPvP at all. 

In WvW, your guild can spend influence (the "currency" you get by doing things together as a guild, having players log in everyday, etc) to buy very weak upgrades that only affect the small area around a keep or tower that your guild has claimed (and you can only claim one tower at a time). I'm talking a 4% buff to a single attribute out of 8, that's how weak it is. The P2W aspect comes in because it's possible to use money to buy gems to trade for gold, and gold can be used to purchase influence from some merchants. The caveats are that 1) the bonuses are so limited that the "winning" part of "P2W" is not even close to assured, and 2) since upgrades take a while to research, you can't just dump a bunch of cash into the game and buy up all the upgrades, and influence gain rates are not yet known, so it might not even be necessary to buy gold to get these upgrades. 

In PvE, you can buy cosmetic stuff, plus some convenience items (one item lets you access your storage from anywhere, for example), plus some XP/karma/magic find boosts. But since none of the stuff you can buy with gold or karma is going to be any better stat-wise than stuff that's easy to acquire, and the game isn't built around a race to lvl80, you really shouldn't care if someone else is paying money for these boosts. It shouldn't affect your game at all. 

It is pay to win. You can't win the game unless you buy it

Originally posted by Regomar

It's kinda irritating that every time someone brings an unpopular oipinion here they get called trolls and people call out to lock the thread.

I'm new to learning about this game and I'm trying to figure out just what can get bought.  I'm very interested in the game, but I'm disheartened by the fact that you can essentailly buy in game gold with real money.  It might not be a huge advantage, but it makes me much less interested in the game.  I'm not trolling, just saying how I feel.  And seeing you whiteknights jumping all over anyone daring to have another opinion is also a turn off if it's remotely indicative of the kind of community this game will have.

It may not be pay to 'win' but it's certainly pay for advantage.  I'm honestly not sure how people can deny that.  Frankly, it's mindboggling.  Is it a significant advantage?  Doesn't look like it no, and that's good.  But it's advantage and if you deny that you're just wrong.

No one is denying that it gives an advantage, just saying it isn't an advantage that reflects in combat, which one can say is where there is winning and losing.

But you have toi see the other side - some people get in game gold, but someone else get access to items that would cost real money for in game gold.

You can't dissociate that fact, that someone that cares about the game gets something as well.

Sure you got 8 gold or 100 gold or whatever, but I got that character slot or that storage page that would have cost $10 for 8 or 100 gold. Your experience was enhanced, my experience was enhanced.

And both of us are paying $0 subscription fee - that is what we get back.

Now compare that to illegal gold sellers - we have our world infested by "bots" and people that don't care about the game or the community, that then sell the gold they farm for money and that money will be used and create inflation.

In GW2 model since both players care about the game, wealth just moves around. Ssure, there is the potential to concentrate wealth, but many of the game sought after items are bought in currencies other than gold and if someone buys gold to buy influence, well, then it is just money being removed from the system, so no inflation there.

Of course no one is saying CS and money for gold is a perfect system,but what is the alternative? Monthly subscriptions that don't prevent the CS from being implemented anyway? Fremium models where the free account is quite limited?

See it as "Pay for convenience".

Originally posted by Vunak23

Not like it wasnt expected GW1 was pay to win as well

What are you even speaking of? I have owned GW1 since it released and still play it some now. I haven't payed a dime past the game + expansions. How is this "pay to win" exactly?

Apparently, some people have a very warped view (or at least much different than mine) of what "pay to win" actually means. To each their own, but I completely disagree.

Originally posted by MattVid

Originally posted by Vunak23

Not like it wasnt expected GW1 was pay to win as well

What are you even speaking of? I have owned GW1 since it released and still play it some now. I haven't payed a dime past the game + expansions. How is this "pay to win" exactly?

Apparently, some people have a very warped view (or at least much different than mine) of what "pay to win" actually means. To each their own, but I completely disagree.

He was probably joking... it doesn't make sense otherwise

"The highlighted bit, you go on to say that all the gear has the same power, then on the next few words you say that skill matters more than stats, which is a contradiction, you either have the exact same stats on everything or you dont, if you have 1 more stat on something over the other then, gear doesnt have the same power, because two players playing at the exact same skill level the one with one more stat point is going to have the advantage."

It's not a contradiction; you can't get better stat gear than anyone else. What matters is player skill, not gear stats. Even if you could buy what is essentially the same stat gear anyone else has (although it might look cooler), you can't buy player skill. If yo're going to define "P2W" . There's nothing you can buy that will compensate for inferior player skill - nothing.

"In case you havent noticed P2W the Win doesnt mean you are going to win a medal it means you  acquired something, for cash rather than through in game means, someone killed 1000 goblins and won a feather to put on their hat, someone took their credit card out and won a feather to put on their hat, the latter paid to win something, that the earlier had to play to achieve, so that cheapens the experience for the player who actually went and got the feather to put on their hat in game."

I can see your point, but some game mechanics and features are driven by real world issues and necessity, and we all have to be willing to compromise to some degree to account for it.  In this case, the real-word issue is gold farmers and the fact that if anyone wants to buy vanity items available in a game where there is no cash shop, they can still do so. Anyone who wants to P2W can do so just by hiring a character leveling service or, because of the new court ruling on re-selling software, buy (used) pre-leveled accounts. I don't go searching for reasons to feel like my game-time has been trivialized, because if I do so then that will happen in every game. I could look at GW2's deleveling mechanic and complain that my character's advances have been trivialized because he or she isn't uber-powerful in beginning areas.

IMO, we have to be reasonable even as we advocate for that which we beleive is good for a game or the genre. I personally don't think it's reasonable at this juncture to attack the GW2 cash shop as it stands now as trivializing the experience of others.  When you have to use so broad a definition of "winning" as buying purely cosmetic items that others can also buy with in-game money, I think the argument about the cash shop being "P2W" has lost its teeth.

Originally posted by Meleagar

I'm still trying to figure out what the "win" in P2W means in GW2.  What do you "win", even if you can buy all the best gear out of the cash shop? Does having all he best gear mean you "win", when everyone else can get equal gear any number of ways that do not require money?

Even **if** they put such gear in the cash shop, and even **if** you defined "winning" as "having the best gear", at best it would be a "Pay 2 Tie" cash shop.

Perhaps you define "winning" as being able to dominate in PvP? Or PvE? How is that going to happen when you only have the same power gear as others, and in GW2 it's far, far more about skill than stats or gear?

I'm not sure the people who make thse kinds of threads or comments really understand the GW2 game design.

You're exactly right.  And then there are also the ones that are just simply trolling the game.  Either way, a lot of stupidity (or ignorance) out there.

Originally posted by Vunak23

Not like it wasnt expected GW1 was pay to win as well

What on earth are you talking about.  THIS is an example of plain outright lying or cluelessness.  I'm not sure which.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Regomar

It's kinda irritating that every time someone brings an unpopular oipinion here they get called trolls and people call out to lock the thread.

I'm new to learning about this game and I'm trying to figure out just what can get bought.  I'm very interested in the game, but I'm disheartened by the fact that you can essentailly buy in game gold with real money.  It might not be a huge advantage, but it makes me much less interested in the game.  I'm not trolling, just saying how I feel.  And seeing you whiteknights jumping all over anyone daring to have another opinion is also a turn off if it's remotely indicative of the kind of community this game will have.

It may not be pay to 'win' but it's certainly pay for advantage.  I'm honestly not sure how people can deny that.  Frankly, it's mindboggling.  Is it a significant advantage?  Doesn't look like it no, and that's good.  But it's advantage and if you deny that you're just wrong.

No one is denying that it gives an advantage, just saying it isn't an advantage that reflects in combat, which one can say is where there is winning and losing.

But you have toi see the other side - some people get in game gold, but someone else get access to items that would cost real money for in game gold.

You can't dissociate that fact, that someone that cares about the game gets something as well.

Sure you got 8 gold or 100 gold or whatever, but I got that character slot or that storage page that would have cost $10 for 8 or 100 gold. Your experience was enhanced, my experience was enhanced.

And both of us are paying $0 subscription fee - that is what we get back.

Now compare that to illegal gold sellers - we have our world infested by "bots" and people that don't care about the game or the community, that then sell the gold they farm for money and that money will be used and create inflation.

In GW2 model since both players care about the game, wealth just moves around. Ssure, there is the potential to concentrate wealth, but many of the game sought after items are bought in currencies other than gold and if someone buys gold to buy influence, well, then it is just money being removed from the system, so no inflation there.

Of course no one is saying CS and money for gold is a perfect system,but what is the alternative? Monthly subscriptions that don't prevent the CS from being implemented anyway? Fremium models where the free account is quite limited?

See it as "Pay for convenience".

 

Runes of Magic should have named themselves Guild War 2 and then people would not have called it P2W.

Originally posted by Regomar

It's kinda irritating that every time someone brings an unpopular oipinion here they get called trolls and people call out to lock the thread.

Thats when you know the poster was probably right and the fanboi's had no answer for it. Better get used to it if your going to read GW2 forum.

Originally posted by travamars

Originally posted by Regomar

It's kinda irritating that every time someone brings an unpopular oipinion here they get called trolls and people call out to lock the thread.

Thats when you know the poster was probably right and the fanboi's had no answer for it. Better get used to it if your going to read GW2 forum.

They get called trolls and people call out to lock threads when those "opinions" aren't "unpopular" but complete lies due to seer ignorance and/or hate. Only then. If an opinion has at least a little bit of sensible explanation then there is no "trolling" or "locking" requests.

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Regomar

It's kinda irritating that every time someone brings an unpopular oipinion here they get called trolls and people call out to lock the thread.

I'm new to learning about this game and I'm trying to figure out just what can get bought.  I'm very interested in the game, but I'm disheartened by the fact that you can essentailly buy in game gold with real money.  It might not be a huge advantage, but it makes me much less interested in the game.  I'm not trolling, just saying how I feel.  And seeing you whiteknights jumping all over anyone daring to have another opinion is also a turn off if it's remotely indicative of the kind of community this game will have.

It may not be pay to 'win' but it's certainly pay for advantage.  I'm honestly not sure how people can deny that.  Frankly, it's mindboggling.  Is it a significant advantage?  Doesn't look like it no, and that's good.  But it's advantage and if you deny that you're just wrong.

Dude who cares, you can buy gold from a goldseller in any other game.

 

Yeah you could. And you could also get your account banned, your identity stolen, or be generally disdained by the community for being "ebayed."

 

You can't use the fact it is possible to perform an activity illegally as justification to legalize said activity.

 

[mod edit]

/facepalm....

[mod edit]

Sorry, but why does this make the argument above valid?  The argument for legalizing drugs in Denmark is based on the same predicate as the argument for legalizing gold selling and is just as wrong ;).

I mean, if you think that "people can do it anyway, so it should be legal" is a valid argument, then you basically believe in anarchy.  Every single illegal activity can be done.  If it was impossible to do, it would not be illegal because no one could ever do it.

Stealing, obviously can be done.  Should they legalize that?  What about murder?  Possession of weapons of mass destruction?

Hey, you can do all those, they should legalize them!

And yes, I know these are hyperbolic examples, but that doesn't matter.  The examples are hyperbolic on purpose to show the ridiculousness of the following argument:

"If a person can obtain or perform material or act X by illegal means, then material or act X should be legal."

Originally posted by travamars

Originally posted by Regomar

It's kinda irritating that every time someone brings an unpopular oipinion here they get called trolls and people call out to lock the thread.

Thats when you know the poster was probably right and the fanboi's had no answer for it. Better get used to it if your going to read GW2 forum.

Sometimes people call "troll" because it's the 50th time a thread topic has come up and there's no way the OP could NOT have known that, so....you know....you draw some conclusions from that.  A lot of the "troll posts" are indeed just troll posts.  I wouldn't say one way or the other, but sometimes it's very obvious.  I certainly don't think it automatically means the OP was right.  That's just laughable.  Read around a bit.  Learn to use search.  One can avoid being called a troll if one uses less troll-like behavior.  Shocking, I know.

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Master10K

I can link to.

This is golden.

Sounds good, but this guy told us himself that IT IS PAY TO WIN.

Sure not on the first hand, but if you can level faster by spending money or get more ingame gold. You will reach higher level faster, get better gear faster and in PvP you will crush the players that dont have the level or the items you have.

Dont missunderstand me, I have nothing agains pay to win, I know that they must earn money. But they can just be quite and its ok, insteed of argumenting stupid lies that its not pay to win.

Originally posted by Mari2k

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Master10K

I can link to.

This is golden.

 

Sounds good, but this guy told us himself that IT IS PAY TO WIN.

Sure not on the first hand, but if you can level faster by spending money or get more ingame gold. You will reach higher level faster, get better gear faster and in PvP you will crush the players that dont have the level or the items you have.

Dont missunderstand me, I have nothing agains pay to win, I know that they must earn money. But they can just be quite and its ok, insteed of argumenting stupid lies that its not pay to win.

You do have an idea how PvP works in the game right?

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Regomar

It's kinda irritating that every time someone brings an unpopular oipinion here they get called trolls and people call out to lock the thread.

I'm new to learning about this game and I'm trying to figure out just what can get bought.  I'm very interested in the game, but I'm disheartened by the fact that you can essentailly buy in game gold with real money.  It might not be a huge advantage, but it makes me much less interested in the game.  I'm not trolling, just saying how I feel.  And seeing you whiteknights jumping all over anyone daring to have another opinion is also a turn off if it's remotely indicative of the kind of community this game will have.

It may not be pay to 'win' but it's certainly pay for advantage.  I'm honestly not sure how people can deny that.  Frankly, it's mindboggling.  Is it a significant advantage?  Doesn't look like it no, and that's good.  But it's advantage and if you deny that you're just wrong.

Dude who cares, you can buy gold from a goldseller in any other game.

 

Yeah you could. And you could also get your account banned, your identity stolen, or be generally disdained by the community for being "ebayed."

 

You can't use the fact it is possible to perform an activity illegally as justification to legalize said activity.

 

If you could use that argument, then I could argue that bath salts, the drug that turns you into a face eating zombie should be legal because...hey, people can get it from illegal drug dealers right now.

/facepalm....

Why do people discuss that drugs should be legal in Denmark, hmm... because you can get them anywhere anyway.

Sorry, but why does this make the argument above valid?  The argument for legalizing drugs in Denmark is based on the same predicate as the argument for legalizing gold selling and is just as wrong ;).

I mean, if you think that "people can do it anyway, so it should be legal" is a valid argument, then you basically believe in anarchy.  Every single illegal activity can be done.  If it was impossible to do, it would not be illegal because no one could ever do it.

Stealing, obviously can be done.  Should they legalize that?  What about murder?  Possession of weapons of mass destruction?

Hey, you can do all those, they should legalize them!

And yes, I know these are hyperbolic examples, but that doesn't matter.  The examples are hyperbolic on purpose to show the ridiculousness of the following argument:

"If a person can obtain or perform material or act X by illegal means, then material or act X should be legal."

As an Anarcho-Capitalist I have some major beef with this post but we're not supposed to get into politics on these forums.

Originally posted by Vorch

No sPvP advantage.

Negligible advantage in WvW with 10,000 USD spent (about 64 hours worth of boosts if someone buys mystic keys, get's "boosts" from Mystic Chest, and spreads them across 50 people). I make the HUGE assumption that they have already bought Mystict Chests without RL Money)

Possible advantage in PvE with 10,000 USD spent (XP boost is negligible due to only working on kills, can purchase about 3200 hours worth of statistical boosts if they purchase Mystic Keys and already have ALOT of Mystic Chests. Again, HUGE assumption).

 

The advantage in sPvP is non-existant. The advantage in WvW is possible, but not probable, especially for matches lasting 336 hours with guilds only able to hold one keep at a time. PvE has a possible advantage with 10,000 USD spent, with enough statistical boosts to last 8 characters from level 1-80; they player could even spend as little as 2,000 USD on Mystic Keys and get enough boosts to last an ample amount of time.

 

However, anything less than 5000 USD spent exclusively on Mystic Keys should not yield tangible results in WvW. Could it possibly effect a 1v1 or 5v5 battle? Of course. However, because of its scale and duration, it is simply not probable for multiple people to spend 10,000 USD to win a 2 week battle with slight rewards going to the victor. There really is extremely little incentive.

In PvE, someone could spend alot on statistical advantages (boosts) and be stronger for an extended duration. However, the content of GW2 is designed for players without boosts. No, I have not completed the entire game. However, what has been shown has been able to be completed without any sort of stat buff. In addition, mobs hit hard enough to the point where SKILL is going to be the primary factor in battle, not a boost. There is the possibility that someone may complete PvE content faster than you, but GW2 is designed without traditional endgame AND scales people down to the level of the content around them; there is little incentive to simply rush through to the end.

 

It comes down to this:

Can someone pay to have an advantage in GW2? Yes.

Is that advantage tangible or significant in WvW? No, not imo.

Is that advantage gamebreaking in PvE? No, not from the content that I have seen and partaken in.

Can you complete all the content in GW2 PvE and compete in WvW/sPvP WITHOUT BUYING ANYTHING? Yes.

Is GW2 pay to WIN? No, not imo.

 

It's funny how people argue about P2W cash shop when its obvious from their posts they haven't even touched the game. This post sums everything up nicely.

/thread

It's not problem GW2 being Pay To Win, problem are in those people who came from F2P games and want everything free. Even 50$ they didn't spend or don't want, bothers them. "Why game is not free for download? Why I can't enjoy game without paying 50$? Wait, it's P2W!!! I'm glad I didnt bought shit!" Cheap bastards and poor kids, sorry, no offence. GW2 is P2W? Then gently - GTFO.

Im not sure how this thread is still going. Its so clear GW2 is not pay to win its as easy as looking at their cash shop to know this. Pls look at the link and tell me what item is pay to win there and how!!!! This is not a gear driven game. Its a skill based game. /thread