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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Question: Is raiding really that bad?

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125 posts found
  Magnetia

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 974

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

7/07/12 10:51:06 PM#41

I happen to think that Arenanet just moved big raids into Large DE events as opposed to closed off instances. 

My experience 'raiding' in GW2 was on the Shadow Behemoth. Now obviously it's not a sit down for 5 hours and strategise raid but what it does achieve is getting over 20 people together to fight a giant boss. Gw2 does this so naturally and seamlessly that I almost don't remember it being a raid. It's an open world raid if you will.

I understand that these are not traditional raids but if you really look at the core of what raiding is then GW2 has done it and gotten rid of nearly all the bad sides about raiding.

Goals achieved:
  1. Lots of people
  2. Big Boss in open world
  3. Everybody gets loot
  4. Feeling Epic.

Bad things that have been elimintated:

  1. LFG
  2. LF 1 Tank, 2 Heals 5/6 Heroic
  3. Person A: I want that shield!   Person B: I've been raiding for months, I DESERVE that shield!    Person C:  I won the Roll I win!    Person D: Ninja and leave.
  4. Hours and hours of waiting to have fun.
  5. Spending months on the same boss because your group is too weak.
  6. Being extremely angry at your guildies because they simply aren't geared or smart enough.
Goals not achieved / things I don't see happening:
  1. Social aspect of raiding. I did enjoy getting to know a lot of people over time.
  2. World Boss consequences. What happens when we DONT fight the behemoth off? Is that the end of the chain? Does not killing the behemoth result in more behemoths? Do towns get destroyed by the behemoth?

Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

7/07/12 11:01:20 PM#42
Originally posted by Drakxii
Originally posted by Baddogbill

The fact is 95% of folks just don't want to raid ....and being forced to raid to get the best gear just sucks ,there are many games that are built around raiding ,Gw2 just isn't one of them ...it's simple solution move on

How are you being forced?  If you don't want to raid don't raid.  Just like if you don't want to pvp you don't have to pvp, or if you don't want to craft don't craft.  

I don't see a problem with an MMO appling to different play styles, most of the old MMOs did but these new "mmos" with thier larger teams and budgets seem incapble of doing. 

This! Why would you care? You don't need the "best" gear to do the parts of the game you want to experience. So how are you forced?

  MMOman101

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/08
Posts: 1212

7/07/12 11:05:03 PM#43
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by maskmurda
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by maskmurda

Why can't raiding be skilled based and have a minior gear climb?

There's the problem.  Either the best gear comes from raiding, or else it doesn't.  You're proposing that it should.  People interested in GW2 tend not to be looking for a generic WoW-clone--and mandatory raiding is one of the major complaints about WoW-clones.

Has there ever been a raiding game where you didn't have to go raiding to get the best gear?  My experience has been that raiders insist that raiding should give the best gear, and getting the best gear in the game is most of the point of raiding.  Most won't explicitly admit that, but will implicitly admit it when they claim that raiding needs to give the best gear, as otherwise, no one would do it.

Thats not really true, it's not 100% about the gear in GW2 as they already stated. I see it as a place to get unique stats that aren't really powerful, but special.

Either you have to go raiding to get the stats you want, or else you don't.  There is no middle ground.

If all you get from raiding is alternate armor skins, titles, and stuff like that, then I wouldn't have a problem with it in principle so long as there was an ironclad guarantee that they would never make raiding mandatory.  But that ironclad guarantee is problematic.

Usually when a game makes content that people wouldn't do except for the loot, they throw in overpowered loot to get people to do it anyway.  Even ArenaNet itself proved rather prone to this in Guild Wars 1.  Remember Eye of the North? 

Raiding is so awful that game designers usually have to throw in game-breakingly overpowered loot to get people to do it.  If they offer raiding that doesn't give such loot, then basically no one will do it, as raiders will go to other games that cater more to their preferences.  Putting a bunch of effort into creating content that hardly anyone will ever do is a waste of time, and those resources could be better spent elsewhere.


What are you basing this on?

You are using a very broad brush to paint a group of people that you do not want to be associated with.  I am sure you ahve no facts to support your claims and are stating your opinions as fact. 

You do not know why everyone does anything and it is unlikely that the group of people in question--people who raid--all do it for the same reason. 

You don't like the game design of raiding, that is obviousl  Your post is dripping with bias. 

Every game has a carrot on a stick.  Some are just more easily identifiable. 

  Tekaelon

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/09/08
Posts: 486

7/07/12 11:09:47 PM#44
Honestly most people would not perticipate in raiding without gaining some kind of superior gear. I won't to be able get best gear from several aspects of the game, crafting dungeons, PvP etc. I do not wont to be forced into any one part of the game. I din't want gear grind!
  Kykyryz-a

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/10
Posts: 114

7/07/12 11:26:17 PM#45

I think GW2 cant have raids in PvE only because it doesnt have Trinity.  Raids = atleast 20 ppl in it.   IF  no tank presented  = Boss cant hit hard  any1  = you cant lose  even if 1-5 ppl will die  other 15 will  move/kite bos away and just res ppl and continue.  And fight will be just heavy moving around to avoid any attacks which will be booring as no meleee ppl will be able to play  Or Boss will be easy hitter so melee can survive and it will be just as booring  also.

 ALL GW2 idea doesnt fit in Raiding.  Its for small groups heavy coordination  not for raids  as  if in 5 ppl  if you dont move out of "aoe" you will die and  1-2 players will die after as they cant  "tank" boss and revive also. 

And second thing as you will not get any  Better gear from Instances and "raids"  ppl will just skip for most part it anyway. and it will be content for 5% of players or less So its not a priority to waste resourses  developing it. Maybe some day :) not now :)

 

  User Deleted
7/07/12 11:34:52 PM#46

No it is not but I need something more than just raiding for the best gear.

  Siphaed

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 790

7/07/12 11:38:27 PM#47
Originally posted by maskmurda

I've been thinking. As we get closer to the launch of GW2, I can't help at wonder why they cant' add in raiding to the game.

As I see it, raiding isn't a feature that locks players into grinding, a horrible treadmill up a pointless latter, it was the companies that chose and implimented features that made it seem bad. For example, most raiding requires the trinity because they designed the treadmill around it and thus was able to create longevity in their game and bottlenecked players into the horrible gear grind. Some liked it, primarily those who were part of a guild dedicated enough to complete those task. But games that are progressive like GW2, I don't see why raids wouldn't be successful in it. With pass games, the raiding content was scalled based on gear level and being competent to a certain degree. Why can't raiding be skilled based and have a minior gear climb? I love the thought of progression, I actually like raiding, I just didn't like the fact that I could do a raid for 2 hours and get shafted out of loot for several reasons, or if I'm not in a dedicated guild get a raid spot or the stupid gold runs that make things even worse.

 

So my question is, is raiding really bad, or is it's linear presentation giving it a bad rep? I think raiding can be done very well, especially in GW2 seeing how well they handle dynamic events. I wouldn't really mind having a 10-15 player group of friends without depending on certain classes or roles given the right environment and tools for us to feel accomplished and the sense of structed progression. Ofcourse the gear climb is always a problem, but it's always how the content was distributed I feel that made it seem pointless, frustraiting due to the trinity, or business model presented. Just a thought.

 

 

 

What you don't seem to understand is that raiding was a LIMITATION.  Guild Wars 2 sets to break the limitions and oppression of group raids with their Dynamic Events system.   For example, the Dyanmic Event of the giant forest Grubb in the Eternal Battlegrounds near the ruins.  Some would say that these are "world raids" because the vast amount of people needed.

 

So Yes and No, Guild Wars 2 has raids in a cerain aspect.  The simple fact are as follows:

 

1) Player participation isn't limited artificially.

2) Anyone can join.

3) Everyone is awarded based on their participation.

4) No obnoxious 'trinity' needed.

5) They actually play part of the world.

 

Here's an example of a Guild War's 2 raid: http://www.gamespot.com/guild-wars-2/videos/guild-wars-2-demo-tequatl-6330321/ (start at 3:00 on).  "Scales up to 100 players"

 

Ya, old 20-40 man raids can just die in a fire....long live GW2's world raids.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

7/07/12 11:51:55 PM#48
Originally posted by Siphaed
Originally posted by maskmurda

I've been thinking. As we get closer to the launch of GW2, I can't help at wonder why they cant' add in raiding to the game.

As I see it, raiding isn't a feature that locks players into grinding, a horrible treadmill up a pointless latter, it was the companies that chose and implimented features that made it seem bad. For example, most raiding requires the trinity because they designed the treadmill around it and thus was able to create longevity in their game and bottlenecked players into the horrible gear grind. Some liked it, primarily those who were part of a guild dedicated enough to complete those task. But games that are progressive like GW2, I don't see why raids wouldn't be successful in it. With pass games, the raiding content was scalled based on gear level and being competent to a certain degree. Why can't raiding be skilled based and have a minior gear climb? I love the thought of progression, I actually like raiding, I just didn't like the fact that I could do a raid for 2 hours and get shafted out of loot for several reasons, or if I'm not in a dedicated guild get a raid spot or the stupid gold runs that make things even worse.

 

So my question is, is raiding really bad, or is it's linear presentation giving it a bad rep? I think raiding can be done very well, especially in GW2 seeing how well they handle dynamic events. I wouldn't really mind having a 10-15 player group of friends without depending on certain classes or roles given the right environment and tools for us to feel accomplished and the sense of structed progression. Ofcourse the gear climb is always a problem, but it's always how the content was distributed I feel that made it seem pointless, frustraiting due to the trinity, or business model presented. Just a thought.

 

 

 

What you don't seem to understand is that raiding was a LIMITATION.  Guild Wars 2 sets to break the limitions and oppression of group raids with their Dynamic Events system.   For example, the Dyanmic Event of the giant forest Grubb in the Eternal Battlegrounds near the ruins.  Some would say that these are "world raids" because the vast amount of people needed.

 

So Yes and No, Guild Wars 2 has raids in a cerain aspect.  The simple fact are as follows:

 

1) Player participation isn't limited artificially.

2) Anyone can join.

3) Everyone is awarded based on their participation.

4) No obnoxious 'trinity' needed.

5) They actually play part of the world.

 

Here's an example of a Guild War's 2 raid: http://www.gamespot.com/guild-wars-2/videos/guild-wars-2-demo-tequatl-6330321/ (start at 3:00 on).  "Scales up to 100 players"

 

Ya, old 20-40 man raids can just die in a fire....long live GW2's world raids.

That new mentality is why I'm really looking forward to GW2. I love how effortless it is to participate in events and large boss fights. Just run up and start swinging. No one is going to get mad at you for mob stealing, etc. I've been playing TSW lately and one thing I miss about GW2 is the fact that I have to fight others for spawns. It feels so restrictive and just plain anti-social compared to GW2.

Can't wait for this game.

  Skyy_High

Novice Member

Joined: 12/03/10
Posts: 140

7/08/12 12:05:47 AM#49

I'm almost positive that they'll be adding some manner of larger scale dungeon content in future expansions, and that they're sticking with 5-man dungeons in the initial release because they want to give us a variety of that one dungeon experience and for every single one to be a beautifully polished experience. Also 5-man teams are set as the default in both pvP and PvE, so it makes sense that the dungeons are 5 man as well. 

20-100 man events are the dynamic event content (specifically the big boss events). Dungeons are, for now, about more coordinated group efforts, where everyone has to pull their own weight. 

  VassagoMael

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/09/12
Posts: 525

7/08/12 12:07:49 AM#50

Where is the poll????? All I need is a "Yes" to vote for.

Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
Subscription = Actual content updates!

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8641

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

7/08/12 1:14:45 AM#51

Raiding isnt that bad, espescially in a game like GW2 without any real gear grind it would actually be fun, I can only think of one downside from a raid, its harder to find 10 or 20 people then it is to find 5 people.

 

However i would not despair if i was a fan of Mass PvE raids... I personally think that some of the endgame dynamic event chains will become much like the raids i remember from EQ.  When people just zerg gthtem they will not work, it will need coordination to overcome these big bosses and leaders will need to stand up to make sure of a victory.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Auzy

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/04
Posts: 615

7/08/12 1:25:29 AM#52

I dont see raiding as bad...if done right can be really fun.  

I wouldnt mind seeing PvPvE raids (would have to be no longer than an hour and queable) 

Something like Artrec Valley comes to mind, but more extensive of course.

Uhh... what?

  atziluth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 1223

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7/08/12 1:43:17 AM#53
Originally posted by Drakxii

So...  Raiding sucks because you couldn't find a good guild and/or weren't willing deal with the fact that those poeple are in deed real people?

This will get me flamed but 90% of the complaints I have ever read about raiding is either I don't want to do it or I can't do it so it shouldn't be in the game.  Views like that are ruining MMOs.  

No, raiding sucks because it creates a vicious development cycle which ruins MMOs. Guilds run raids until their fingers bleed kitting out their characters. Once kitted out they get bored as there is no new shiny carrot for them to obtain and flaunting (at best) or ganking players (depending on the game)  who have no chance because of gear innequality. They rile their guild to start slamming the boards and customer service demanding bigger and more shiny carrots. Developers see this as easy money as these guilds will buy new raid content through expansions no matter how poorly made the raid content is. Raiders go back to holding a 6 hour job every night banging out the new content for a chance at gear bliss. 

Now this would be fine, but this cycle causes new gear to be obnoxiously overpowered compared to existing gear. The gear innequality continues... The longer the game goes the more idiotic the gear power becomes... The game starts to revolve around gear forcing anyone who wants to stay competative to raid. 

Tell you what... I would be completely fine with raid content in the game as long as there was no rewards other than xp and karma... You know how many raiders would do the content... none. HC raid guilds care about one thing only... getting their next gear fix. Take that away and they have no reason to raid. Like the previous poster said... Raiding is boring... After running the same content 20 times there is no challenge. It is just another form of grind. 

It simply has no place in GW2. Those that want raiding in the game will eventially demand GW2 become gear centric. It happens in every game where raiding is implamented. 

-Atziluth-

- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.

  MattVid

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 409

7/08/12 2:04:17 AM#54
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by terrant

Like this many things, the spirit of raiding is fantastic. The execution is highly flawed.

 

In spirit, raiding is about you and a massive group of people fighting an arduous, horribly challenging battle against overwhelming odds and being rewarded in kind.

 

In practice, raiding here's some of the things I've had to endure that make me hate the current iteration of raiding in most MMOs.

 

  • Being passed up for raid slots because the guild leader wants his wife's idiot brother to come in.
  • Wiping for 20+ hours a week on the same fight, generally because of 1-2 complete idiots that refuse to get even simple mechanics.
  • Being told "This is a massive upgrade for you, but not really one for me. But I still want it and I have 2x the DKP you do, so don't bother" (Oh, and the guy vendored the item a week later.
  • Loot drama
  • Player drama
  • Having to wait 45 minutes because the main healer was busy arguing with his wife.
  • Being the only person alive in teh goddamn Heigan dance for 15 minutes (as a tank) before the sucker finally killed me.
  • Seeing that (as a tank) I'm beating 4 DPS in damage, and one of them bitches it's my fault we hit an enrage timer 6 times. Oh, and the POS needs on my gear and wins it. then bails.
 
In short; Raiding would be great, if it weren't for the raiders.
 
Well that, and the mechanics are so dumb stupid anymore..I have literally gotten up, made a snack, come back, and my character is still alive and holding aggro.
 

Good guilds dont have these things I'm talking US 500 and above type guilds. Top server guilds. I know everyone can't get in a good guild for whatever reason, but I just wanted to point out that a lot of people don't have these problems with raiding.

Good guilds. Top server guilds. And then you say "a lot of people don't have these problems". You do realize, that you are talking about probably the top 0.5% (or less) of the player base here. The large majority is not in this position.

I was in one of the top guilds on my server in RIFT for raid progression (this is my most recent "hardcore raiding" experience) and there was still drama with loot at times. There was drama with leaders (especially when people quit playing), change of leadership, change of loot rules, etc. There was still drama with people getting cut due to favoritism or them just sucking. There was a shit load of wiping ... that is what a progression guild does ... bash your head against a brick wall until you figure out a strategy.

The truth of the matter is, there is a very small amount of the player base than even reaches this content ... let alone finishes it. Then, people whine, and the content gets dumbed down to easy mode. Then they put in a raid finder. It isn't "raiding" anymore at that point. That isn't what I call "raiding" nor what I want to see happen in any game. I want a CHALLENGE!

I want challenging content, but I don't want to see it dumbed down to sub-retard levels so anyone can complete it. Or else, what is the point? I think ArenaNet is doing a good job making everything accessible, and not "requiring" people to do certain things to be on par with other players.

Just giving some cool titles, or sweet looking armor is enough for me to want to complete the content, and that is what I am going to do. I can't wait to bash my bloodied forhead against a wall for hours on end trying to finish some dungeon/event boss. I am in it for the challenge :)

  seridan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/12
Posts: 1212

7/08/12 2:12:23 AM#55

Some Dynamic Events later on will be "like Raids" for example the Shatterer encounter. I'm positive there will be more of those.

Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  MattVid

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 409

7/08/12 2:14:58 AM#56
Originally posted by seridan

Some Dynamic Events later on will be "like Raids" for example the Shatterer encounter. I'm positive there will be more of those.

Exactly, there were "raid like" encounters I even had in the BWE. I don't want to spoil anything, but there was one bigass boss I got to fight in a swamp with tons of people. It was awesome.

And the Shatterer isn't even one of the "real dragons" ... there is a lot of room for some epic and awesome stuff in GW2, I can't wait to try it out.

  Scarlyng

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/12
Posts: 160

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. -- Mark Twain

7/08/12 2:22:03 AM#57
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

If a raid gives the best loot and that loot is only really needed to raid harder content, then why do non-raiders care what loot drops in raids if it isn't something that they will need for the content they will experience. As long as the developers make content for everyone then why care?

I have no problem with this way of thinking if the raid gear only works in raids ... oh, but no raider will stand for that, will they?  They want the advantage the uber gear gives them while doing the game's other content, also.  Why?  Because they "earned" it.

 

*****

 

Raids started as really fun, challenging encounters, something truly exceptional.  The problem is that they've evolved.  They are now one of the three pillars in developer plans to keep people happily p(l)aying.  If raiding has a bad name now, blame Blizzard.  They're the ones who re-invented the raid as hamster wheel, and of course, everyone whoi wants a piece of the pie thinks they need to do the same.

 

At the moment, I'm happy with what I know about GW2's content.  While it would not hurt my feelings if dungeons were doable (and scaled) in larger groups, I suspect that with the game requirements as they are, the dungeons would have to feature less graphics on the part of the environment/mobs to still ping smoothly along with much larger groups of players.  However, if dungeon "raids" were to become available, there should not be "greater" rewards for doing the instance with more people.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

  Rhowin

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 36

7/08/12 4:16:39 AM#58

For me the most fun part in my mmo-time was raiding in EQ I and the first years of WoW - I'm not talking about the whole loot treadmill and all the problems that go along with this, but having some tasks you can only complete in a coordinated group can be really rewarding. I even liked the whole 'pre-raid' preparation with all the gathering, questing etc. needed for buffs, potions and alike.

It became unbarable for me once all those group finder tools came into place, hardmode vs easymode, content made so that it can be done with different sized groups, the virtual item resets... it started to make all this into a much more anonymous item hunt.

For me among the biggest problems was that developers intially only focused on the very selected few who (for whatever reasons) menaged to take part of these raids and a large part was left out. There should be some unique rewards imho, but if this is more of visual nature and doesn't effect the other parts of the game it's a type of content for those players who enjoy it.

On a semi-related note: I enjoy smaller group content that is easily accessible for everyone too, but I loved as well the smaller group content that was really hard, took more than 1h+ to complete and required some preperation.

In short: I don't think raiding is bad at all - but you need to offer other enjoyable content for those who don't like that sort of thing. Content that is made for a large group of players working together is what makes these games 'mmo'rpgs for me.

  JoeyMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1334

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

7/08/12 5:52:59 AM#59

Raiding is really bad in that it takes up so much time that's it's just no longer fun. When you have to organize your life around raid times for a game that's supposed to be fun, then they can just shove it.

If you have nothing else to do with your life, it's fine I guess. If they get cosmetic, cool looking gear for it, that is basically equivalent to other gear, then there is no problem with it. Those that want it can do it. Usually though the whole thing is such a chore that people only put up with it to be able to own others. And that is essentially the whole raid problem. It's just not a fun thing to do over and over again.

  Buttski

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/21/06
Posts: 191

7/08/12 6:17:31 AM#60

i'm quite happy that they don't waste ressources on raiding (and other useless things like 'housing' (lol)).

pvp is the main part. it should stay that way.

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