Originally posted by helthros

I'm just curious... I see a lot of people referencing other games that have gear grinds etc as to how badly they suck (oddly enough at least one of them is simply unmatched in success). Having said that, nobody references a game that doesn't have the gear grind to show "That's how a game should be and it shows proof that you don't need a gear grind".

 

Playing a game just to play it works just fine... for FPS like Modern Warfare. While GW2 is built fairly arcade style, I wouldn't do too much chest beating about how long lasting the content will be just yet.

Because

1- Those games are lobby based which means you don't need as much of a population as an mmorpg. But even then it's bad. I just came of Operation 7. Do to the lack of players (well, not that much), there's less maps, less variety, etc. That 10x worse in an mmo. Which is why GW1 is not the same as GW2

2- Games liek FPS, MOBA, and all other genres revolve around pure gameplay. It's addctive. MMORGP don't have the addictive factor those other have with nothing more than gameplay. progression in rpgs has always been importantr. Not only that, even many of those game have several progression mechanics to even give more longevity.

"Grinding" isn't bad per se. It's just the gear treadmill that's so annoying and repetative. However, GW2 is an mmorpg that needs players, sub or not. it doesn't work the same as lobby games like it's predecessor.

EDIT: Also, to me, quality mmo doesn't mean i have to play it for all of eternity. I like TSW and GW2 because of just that.

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by helthros

Colored replies are always fun.

I still play GW1

 Skill bar and proper play is far superior than gear though. I wouldn't consider capturing elites, or any other skills, a grind it was a part of gameplay and it didn't require doing the same thing over and over again (grind)

Now I know you didn't play GW1 at release. It absolutely did require doing the same thing over and over again. Signets didn't work the way they work now and bosses only had a chance of spawning. There were no books to 'cheat' and learn stuff with the mere use of gold. You absolutely had to run the same area over and over again hoping to get the boss that had the skill you wanted. Even then, you had to capture it right after they used it. They didn't use the skill? Too bad, you couldn't capture it. Without the introduction of Heroes, most of the time this meant hassling a group of people to come out with you, which wasn't always possible.

There was/is no NEED to farm gold or farm UW. I have 45/50 on my HoM, perfect builds on all my chars and I never ever touched UW farming. Also, there is no NEED to have perfect gear. Is it really important to have a sword with +30 HP and not +25 or +29? No it wouldn't make much of a difference any way. There is a huge difference between having to grind (doing a raid a few hundred times to get proper set gear) in order to go to the next raid and having to grind for a "perfect" item without it having a huge impact on your gameplay.

lol ok, you tell the people that were competitive about HoH that you didn't need to have gear with perfect stats on it.

The kind of grind in GW1 is optional. The typical gear grind is not. You HAVE to grind to be able to finish certain dungeons/raid, in GW1 you don't. Perfect items don't mean perfect player.

Perfect items don't necessarily result in perfect players in other games either. I remember regularly out-dpsing and out-healing people that outgeared the crap out of my in WoW simply out of being a better player. I didn't need the gear, it's just a crutch for average to bad gamers.

Clearly you didn't play before heroes and skill books were introduced, but let me reassure you that the game was very much a grind before then. When you capped the cost of your skills it took a considerable amount of money (and farming) to be able to expand your abilities. Either that or grinding zones to try to capture the skills you wanted (which again, required buying signet captures).

The grind wasn't gear, it was skills. You can put a different dress on it, but it was still a grind. You couldn't complete the last string of dungeons on the fire island (ring of fire I think? It's been ages) without having an optimal build setup with the appropriate elite skill on all of the participating characters.

 

 

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

 

This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

 

The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

The arrogance of "Doing it how we always did it because that's how it has always been done." 

To put it mildly, I despise that sentiment.

Originally posted by helthros

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by helthros

Colored replies are always fun.

I still play GW1

 Skill bar and proper play is far superior than gear though. I wouldn't consider capturing elites, or any other skills, a grind it was a part of gameplay and it didn't require doing the same thing over and over again (grind)

Now I know you didn't play GW1 at release. It absolutely did require doing the same thing over and over again. Signets didn't work the way they work now and bosses only had a chance of spawning. There were no books to 'cheat' and learn stuff with the mere use of gold. You absolutely had to run the same area over and over again hoping to get the boss that had the skill you wanted. Even then, you had to capture it right after they used it. They didn't use the skill? Too bad, you couldn't capture it. Without the introduction of Heroes, most of the time this meant hassling a group of people to come out with you, which wasn't always possible.

There was/is no NEED to farm gold or farm UW. I have 45/50 on my HoM, perfect builds on all my chars and I never ever touched UW farming. Also, there is no NEED to have perfect gear. Is it really important to have a sword with +30 HP and not +25 or +29? No it wouldn't make much of a difference any way. There is a huge difference between having to grind (doing a raid a few hundred times to get proper set gear) in order to go to the next raid and having to grind for a "perfect" item without it having a huge impact on your gameplay.

lol ok, you tell the people that were competitive about HoH that you didn't need to have gear with perfect stats on it.

The kind of grind in GW1 is optional. The typical gear grind is not. You HAVE to grind to be able to finish certain dungeons/raid, in GW1 you don't. Perfect items don't mean perfect player.

Perfect items don't necessarily result in perfect players in other games either. I remember regularly out-dpsing and out-healing people that outgeared the crap out of my in WoW simply out of being a better player. I didn't need the gear, it's just a crutch for average to bad gamers.

Clearly you didn't play before heroes and skill books were introduced, but let me reassure you that the game was very much a grind before then. When you capped the cost of your skills it took a considerable amount of money (and farming) to be able to expand your abilities. Either that or grinding zones to try to capture the skills you wanted (which again, required buying signet captures).

The grind wasn't gear, it was skills. You can put a different dress on it, but it was still a grind. You couldn't complete the last string of dungeons on the fire island (ring of fire I think? It's been ages) without having an optimal build setup with the appropriate elite skill on all of the participating characters.

 

 

 

You kidding right? Name a boss back in GW1 that could not be defeated using henches.

There are very few elites that only spawn in one location. Hell's Precipice and Thirsty River are the only two mission if I remember correctly that have elites not found in explorable areas or other missions. And from Factions onward capturing elites are pretty much none issues. Even with the initial mechanism most skills (other than stances which did not show up initially) are easy to capture if your aim is to skill cap, simply leave the boss alive.

It does take a few repeats I'll give you that, but it is hardly a grind, especially when you don't even need to kill your way to the boss, and each area give you multiple locations for a potential spawn, so while they may not show up on the first spot, the chances of them showing up in the area is actually not that low.

I played from the day GW1 released, the only time I felt there was grind was the faction point lock in Factions and Sunspears in NF.

And finally, the Ring of Fire, Abaddon's Mouth and Hell's Precipice can easily be done with no elites. I know because I henched my way through on my first character and the only elite I had then was Mark of Protection (and what an awesome spell it is....).

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

 

This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

Actually, EA-Bioware talked about bucking all the conventions, but then cloned WoW. So no one wanted to play.

Did you just come out of hypersleep on Tuesday? SWTOR didn't turn out like the devs described it would be.

Originally posted by Denambren

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

 

This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

Actually, EA-Bioware talked about bucking all the conventions, but then cloned WoW. So no one wanted to play.

Did you just come out of hypersleep on Tuesday? SWTOR didn't turn out like the devs described it would be.

^^ Why did it take 14 pages for someone to finally say it?

So what do all of you geniuses think is going to happen when the game is a ghost town in 2 months because nobody has any reason to stay because of the lack of "grind" as you all love to call it?

Whats going to happen is the game is going to receive 0 support, none whatsoever, bugs will go unfixed, no new content will be added, etc etc.

Absolutely baffles me that people continue to think the F2P models are good for a game. 

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

 

This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

 

The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

Cool, you don't plan on playing thx!

Originally posted by Hrimnir

So what do all of you geniuses think is going to happen when the game is a ghost town in 2 months because nobody has any reason to stay because of the lack of "grind" as you all love to call it?

Whats going to happen is the game is going to receive 0 support, none whatsoever, bugs will go unfixed, no new content will be added, etc etc.

Absolutely baffles me that people continue to think the F2P models are good for a game. 

It's not F2p..WTF did you get that impression?

Also the same reason why I still play Master of Magic .

Ever think maybe people actually enjoy playing video games?

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

This is true if you're looking for an MMO to replace your real life.

I'll play GW2 instead.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

So what do all of you geniuses think is going to happen when the game is a ghost town in 2 months because nobody has any reason to stay because of the lack of "grind" as you all love to call it?

Whats going to happen is the game is going to receive 0 support, none whatsoever, bugs will go unfixed, no new content will be added, etc etc.

Absolutely baffles me that people continue to think the F2P models are good for a game. 

It's B2P not F2P....

Originally posted by Hrimnir

So what do all of you geniuses think is going to happen when the game is a ghost town in 2 months because nobody has any reason to stay because of the lack of "grind" as you all love to call it?

Whats going to happen is the game is going to receive 0 support, none whatsoever, bugs will go unfixed, no new content will be added, etc etc.

Absolutely baffles me that people continue to think the F2P models are good for a game. 

Err, Guild Wars 1?

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

 

This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

 

The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

I don't even know what to say, I retyped at least 10 times, oh my God lol.

Yeah, it's amazing how quickly people put everything in a box.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Hrimnir

So what do all of you geniuses think is going to happen when the game is a ghost town in 2 months because nobody has any reason to stay because of the lack of "grind" as you all love to call it?

Whats going to happen is the game is going to receive 0 support, none whatsoever, bugs will go unfixed, no new content will be added, etc etc.

Absolutely baffles me that people continue to think the F2P models are good for a game. 

Err, Guild Wars 1?

What does a lobby based game that came out during a time with no competition and as become known for it's arena based pvp as to do with anything again? And for the record, i like GW1

Originally posted by dlld

GW2 has a gear grind.. the game just doesn't utterly revolve around it though nor continues to forever prolong it with very few ever getting completed (having "best in slot") like your average wow clone.

Well said. I grinded gear in GW(1) myself, but not because I had to. My gear after a week or 2 was perfectly good but I wanted something to show of how good I play and that required both grinding and to complete hard content.

That will turn off players but frankly do the raid for gear policy many other games have as well.

Focusing on the rest of the market that doesn't want Wow is the smartest thing ANET (and a few other companies like CCP and Undead labs) have done. There are alreaady a zillion games out there for people that are hoarders and love to improve their gear all the time. 

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Hrimnir

So what do all of you geniuses think is going to happen when the game is a ghost town in 2 months because nobody has any reason to stay because of the lack of "grind" as you all love to call it?

Whats going to happen is the game is going to receive 0 support, none whatsoever, bugs will go unfixed, no new content will be added, etc etc.

Absolutely baffles me that people continue to think the F2P models are good for a game. 

Err, Guild Wars 1?

What does a lobby based game that came out during a time with no competition and as become known for it's arena based pvp as to do with anything again? And for the record, i like GW1

Things are indeed different now but remember that GW came out in mid 2005, otherwise known as "the rise of Wow". If that was no competition I don´t know what was, a lot of games went under at the time.

In fact I think 2005 was the worst year in history to release a MMO, Wow released late 2004 and GW1 was probably the most successful game releasing withing 2-3 years after Wow.

But I think Irus more was thinking of the support GW1 actually got, it got as much support as most P2P games.

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

 

This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

 

The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

Er... SWTOR failed because it didn't actually buck any conventions. It plays just like WoW. Singleplayer oriented quests, with maybe a bit more polish.

Gear grind is NOT required, many MMOs have done without it, same for profession and "achievements" (whatever that means).

Current "convention" (WoW clones) aren't fun. Else they'd be growing, not failing and going FTP.

Originally posted by Johnnymmo

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Originally posted by Johnnymmo

 

I am sorry but what have they changed? Have they come up with something new? Where is the endgame? How many times will i bother doing the same dynamic events. Shadow behemoth looks Nice but do boring. Just a zerg and really i forsee that most need to be zergs as communication was non existant. I am gonna enjoy structured pvp though that i am looking forward to playing.

They have broken with tank-spank basi routines used by 99% of MMOs.

They have broken with the 'mission hub' mentality.

They are a true MMO without subscriptions, with Triple A production.

They provide different flavors of PvP, depending on your style.

 

Separately, these are one thing. Under the same hood, they make for a great title.

Thus, they changed many MMO dogmas.

 

1. They dont use trinity i know. And what is then left? Yes the zerg mentality. Tactics out the window lets all just aoe till their dead. 2. No mission hub true. But its still the boring quests of kill 20 bandits, gather 10 Wood, explode 10 tree stumps. So nothing new here. 3. Yes no sub. But like any company they ll milk the customers. Great example mystery boxes. Wheres the keys ohh yes in the cash shop. + an expansion every 6 months costing another 60 bucks 4. So does wow. Wow pvp takes more skill though 5. So no gw2 hasnt invented anything new. Just wrapped it a bit differently

You're talking as someone who hasn't played the game. Do so, try a dungeon and/or PvP, and then come back and tell me that you can just AoE until everything is dead.

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by kedoremos

 

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

 

This actually worries me a little. This exhibits the same level of hubris I saw in SW:TOR. They bucked the genre conventions because supposedly everything had changed. In the end, all their bucking meant nobody wanted to play.

 

The gear grind is required. The profession grind is required. The achievement grind is required. It's how fun and rewarding that grind is that makes a good MMO.

I don't even know what to say, I retyped at least 10 times, oh my God lol.

 LOL I know what you mean.

The only thing I can say is that kedoremos must only have experience in themepark MMO's that follow the EQ/WoW model.

Then again, I have an inkling that by "grind" he really means "progression" and in that case...yes progression is required in an RPG (otherwise it's not an RPG).  But this is not to say that, that progression need be unpleasant or overly repetitive (grindy).  And it definitely doesn't mean that you need one specific kind of progression (gear, achievements, etc.) to be successful.