Peronally I plan on spending thousands of dollars in RL money to gain a serious fashion advantage.

How could anyone deal with me in pvp?

'he's got the green armor!  NO WAIT HE'S SWITCHING TO THE BLUE SHOES, OH GOD HE WENT BACK TO THE PURPLE SHOES RETREAT RETREAT"

Nobody is complaining about the fashions, only trolls mention fashions when talking about P2W.

I personally wish theres ton of fashions me myself will buy them.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 

But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

By this logic, The Secret World which has a Cash Shop with ONLY pretty costumes is also P2W. Guild Wars 1 with a CS full of pretty costumes is also full of P2W, WoW as well with the mounts in the CS.

I don't see it as an "issue" against GW2 here, but instead an issue against RMT and Cash Shops in general, their very existance no matter what they have on offer.

 

To some folks...yep I bet the TSW cash shop would be P2W. To me, it isn't, but that's not saying that it isn't for everyone.

 

The only issue I personally have with the GW2 cash shop is that you can buy in game gold (and thus anything in the AH). But really, that doesn't even bother me much. I'm really just arguing against people who are acting like the GW2 cash shop will have no effect on the game whatsoever ;),

Thats because its not effecting the game or the players, something you seem a little bias about. You lost credibility when you said the CS in TSW is not P2W but GW2s shop is?

Ive seen both and there are clearly more advantages to buy in TSW that GW2.

Originally posted by Zoyita

Nobody is complaining about the fashions, only trolls mention fashions when talking about P2W.

I personally wish theres ton of fashions me myself will buy them.

Well I'm not a troll.

Sometimes people are just joking, heh.

In all seriousness, the magnitude of the temporary advantages gained through regular cash shop spending seem minor enough to not be an issue.

To truly eliminate it, you'd have to eliminate the gems ---> gold ability but I think that'd be a shame.   It's nice having the ability to buy cash shop items/currency from other players with in game currency, just to have the ability to get the cosmetic toys that you find fun.

why this is still open?

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

So now we have pay2advantage as something different than pay2win LOL?  Is that just a convenient way to avoid the pay2win moniker for GW2?  Because until GW2 came along pay2advantage = pay2win.  Thats how the majority of Korean grinders work, and even many F2P games work that way.

GW2 fanaticals should just be happy their game is coming out soon, and if they don't mind that it has some pay2win aspects (WvWvW in particular) then so be it.  But it is quite amusing to see the contortions some go through in order to justify the cash shop.  Here are a few common contortions:

1) But you can get everything simply by grinding in game!  There is no cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage" so how can it be pay2win?

2) All you are doing is cheating yourself out of playing the game.  So really it is pay2lose!  How clever of me!!!

3) Its Anet, and Anet would never do such a thing.  I trust them with my first born.

4) The gold isn't techincally sold for money.  You buy gems not gold.  And then you sell the gems on auction house for gold.  So clearly there is no real money purchasing of gold, because I cannot imagine anybody figuring out that 2 step process it takes to buy gold with money

5) Thank heavens Anet has given us this ability to buy short-cuts with money, so those who can actually spend more time playing the game do not have an advantage over those who barely play at all

6) Yeah, well I'm uber skill boy and I'll beat those punks with my superior gaming intellect and pro abilities.  They can have their WvWvW boosts it won't matter I don't mind beating them on an uneven playing field cause I'm PRO

7) There is no competition in GW2.  That is so yesterday.  Anet has revolutionized the gameplay into a big happy zergfest and the individual means nothing!

8) Go back to WoW or SWTOR or XXXXX, you just don't get the new style

9) Why are people so cheap?  So you expect to play this game for free?  (but I hate subscription fees thats a rip off)

Plus many many others...

It is so odd that in this very same thread you posed:

"I'm done pushing too hard on it though, as I don't really follow it much anymore once I decided I wouldn't be buying it.  I used to be way more informed than most of its die-hard-fanatics back when I was more actively debating it, but once I figured out the nuances of their cash shop and how deeply ingrained they were making it, I completely lost interest."

Yet here you are, still hard at work, arguing about an issue you have no real stake in because as you've said many times, you haven't played a BWE nor do you intend to purchase it. Yet how many of your posts are about GW2? Does this make sense?

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

why this is still open?

Probably because you don't get banned for whining, but you definately get banned for being an asshole. I've proven that.

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

So now we have pay2advantage as something different than pay2win LOL?  Is that just a convenient way to avoid the pay2win moniker for GW2?  Because until GW2 came along pay2advantage = pay2win.  Thats how the majority of Korean grinders work, and even many F2P games work that way.

GW2 fanaticals should just be happy their game is coming out soon, and if they don't mind that it has some pay2win aspects (WvWvW in particular) then so be it.  But it is quite amusing to see the contortions some go through in order to justify the cash shop.  Here are a few common contortions:

1) But you can get everything simply by grinding in game!  There is no cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage" so how can it be pay2win?

2) All you are doing is cheating yourself out of playing the game.  So really it is pay2lose!  How clever of me!!!

3) Its Anet, and Anet would never do such a thing.  I trust them with my first born.

4) The gold isn't techincally sold for money.  You buy gems not gold.  And then you sell the gems on auction house for gold.  So clearly there is no real money purchasing of gold, because I cannot imagine anybody figuring out that 2 step process it takes to buy gold with money

5) Thank heavens Anet has given us this ability to buy short-cuts with money, so those who can actually spend more time playing the game do not have an advantage over those who barely play at all

6) Yeah, well I'm uber skill boy and I'll beat those punks with my superior gaming intellect and pro abilities.  They can have their WvWvW boosts it won't matter I don't mind beating them on an uneven playing field cause I'm PRO

7) There is no competition in GW2.  That is so yesterday.  Anet has revolutionized the gameplay into a big happy zergfest and the individual means nothing!

8) Go back to WoW or SWTOR or XXXXX, you just don't get the new style

9) Why are people so cheap?  So you expect to play this game for free?  (but I hate subscription fees thats a rip off)

Plus many many others...

It is so odd that in this very same thread you posed:

"I'm done pushing too hard on it though, as I don't really follow it much anymore once I decided I wouldn't be buying it.  I used to be way more informed than most of its die-hard-fanatics back when I was more actively debating it, but once I figured out the nuances of their cash shop and how deeply ingrained they were making it, I completely lost interest."

Yet here you are, still hard at work, arguing about an issue you have no real stake in because as you've said many times, you haven't played a BWE nor do you intend to purchase it. Yet how many of your posts are about GW2? Does this make sense?

Let them continue, please. I didn't laugh so hard long ago.

Originally posted by negativf4kk

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Gem#Real_life_money_--.3E_in_game_money

Looks like P2W?

Is it me or does this OP look exactly like dozens of others that came before it?

Originally posted by Adalwulff

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 

But I will say that several people would view being successful and showing that success to society as "winning." In fact, successful people in society are often referred to as "winners."

By this logic, The Secret World which has a Cash Shop with ONLY pretty costumes is also P2W. Guild Wars 1 with a CS full of pretty costumes is also full of P2W, WoW as well with the mounts in the CS.

I don't see it as an "issue" against GW2 here, but instead an issue against RMT and Cash Shops in general, their very existance no matter what they have on offer.

 

To some folks...yep I bet the TSW cash shop would be P2W. To me, it isn't, but that's not saying that it isn't for everyone.

 

The only issue I personally have with the GW2 cash shop is that you can buy in game gold (and thus anything in the AH). But really, that doesn't even bother me much. I'm really just arguing against people who are acting like the GW2 cash shop will have no effect on the game whatsoever ;),

 

Thats because its not effecting the game or the players, something you seem a little bias about. You lost credibility when you said the CS in TSW is not P2W but GW2s shop is?

Ive seen both and there are clearly more advantages to buy in TSW that GW2.

I know absolutely nothing about the CS in TSW as I do not play, nor have I been following that game.  I was responding directly to Seridan who said that TSW's cash has only cosmetic stuff.

And I personally do not consider that P2W, though I can understand why others with different viewpoints would.

Also...why must a purchased item affect other players to be "P2W?"  Can you not "win" at single player games?  Is "winning" only a factor when other people are involved?

And that has been my point through this entire thread...the definition of P2W is so nebulous that every poster just twists it to suit their arguments.  All I am saying is that you CAN DEFINITELY buy an advantage in GW2 with real money.  I do not think that advantage will be a huge deal for the game, but it is there.

Outright denying that the cash shop will have any influence on the game is just as bad as crowing that GW2 is flat-out P2W.

Do people like spinning their wheels? Because that is exactly what is going on here.

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Do people like spinning their wheels? Because that is exactly what is going on here.

 

Sure they do, but only while beating a dead horse.

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

So now we have pay2advantage as something different than pay2win LOL?  Is that just a convenient way to avoid the pay2win moniker for GW2?  Because until GW2 came along pay2advantage = pay2win.  Thats how the majority of Korean grinders work, and even many F2P games work that way.

GW2 fanaticals should just be happy their game is coming out soon, and if they don't mind that it has some pay2win aspects (WvWvW in particular) then so be it.  But it is quite amusing to see the contortions some go through in order to justify the cash shop.  Here are a few common contortions:

1) But you can get everything simply by grinding in game!  There is no cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage" so how can it be pay2win?

2) All you are doing is cheating yourself out of playing the game.  So really it is pay2lose!  How clever of me!!!

3) Its Anet, and Anet would never do such a thing.  I trust them with my first born.

4) The gold isn't techincally sold for money.  You buy gems not gold.  And then you sell the gems on auction house for gold.  So clearly there is no real money purchasing of gold, because I cannot imagine anybody figuring out that 2 step process it takes to buy gold with money

5) Thank heavens Anet has given us this ability to buy short-cuts with money, so those who can actually spend more time playing the game do not have an advantage over those who barely play at all

6) Yeah, well I'm uber skill boy and I'll beat those punks with my superior gaming intellect and pro abilities.  They can have their WvWvW boosts it won't matter I don't mind beating them on an uneven playing field cause I'm PRO

7) There is no competition in GW2.  That is so yesterday.  Anet has revolutionized the gameplay into a big happy zergfest and the individual means nothing!

8) Go back to WoW or SWTOR or XXXXX, you just don't get the new style

9) Why are people so cheap?  So you expect to play this game for free?  (but I hate subscription fees thats a rip off)

Plus many many others...

It is so odd that in this very same thread you posed:

"I'm done pushing too hard on it though, as I don't really follow it much anymore once I decided I wouldn't be buying it.  I used to be way more informed than most of its die-hard-fanatics back when I was more actively debating it, but once I figured out the nuances of their cash shop and how deeply ingrained they were making it, I completely lost interest."

Yet here you are, still hard at work, arguing about an issue you have no real stake in because as you've said many times, you haven't played a BWE nor do you intend to purchase it. Yet how many of your posts are about GW2? Does this make sense?

Also in this same thread I posted "You guys sucked me back into the debate" so I felt like poking some fun at the defenders of the cash shop for old times sake.  But thanks for responding to my last post, as for some reason it was removed from this thread by the moderators I guess.  I wonder what terms of service I violated in that tongue-in-cheek response to the cash shop defenders???  Maybe I hit too close to home?  Anyway, no matter.  At least my post lives on in your response LOL.

This entire argument is flawed, because different people have different definitions of what "win" means. 

For some people, grinding in-game to get the most awesome uber loot (even if that just means the most awesome LOOKING loot) is the be-all-and-end-all of the game. That's the entire point of the game to them, and if someone else can just come in and pay for some gems, convert it to gold, and then use that gold to buy whatever rare items they want, that person has just paid to "win the game". 

For other people, grinding for gold is not "noble" in and of itself, and doesn't deserve "protection". Some people have lots of time to spend farming gold, and they should be able to. Other people don't have the time to spend farming for gold, and those people should have access to all the cool looking gear in the game that the farmers have access to, because it's all for show anyway (stats are easily maxed, remember). Conversely, farmers can use this system to buy items that cost most people real money (by buying gems). Everyone gets to use whatever resource they have (time for gold, or real life money) to get what they want, so everyone wins, because it's PvE and no one should be viewing this as a competition. 

These viewpoints are fundamentally exclusive to each other. People who hold one viewpoint will always be talking past the people who hold the other. There is really no way to resolve this argument. ANet has chosen its position (which is that everyone should be able to afford anything, given enough time or money, because they're not selling power so everything else should just be for fun anyway), and if you viscerally disagree with that, there really isn't much else for you to do but not play the game. There WILL be people who are playing the game who bought gold via gems, and turned it into some shiny sword. Of course, those people exist in EVERY game. ANet's just legitimizing the practice. If you can't handle that...sorry, your goals and definitions of "winning" differ from mine, and ANet's. 

At the person above me: see, the reason that you're so vitriolic about this is (looking at your sig) that you think that the cash shop is going to significantly affect WvW. To this, I have two observations:

1) If true, that means that even without the gold -> gem exchange, teams would be able to achieve a significant advantage in WvW via gold farming. Is that really that much better?

2) Look at the influence boosts you can get in WvW. They are absolutely tiny. If *that* is the extent to which P2W exists in GW2, I can't imagine getting upset about it. Population disparities will affect WvW waaaaaay more than influence spending will. 

Originally posted by Skyy_High

This entire argument is flawed, because different people have different definitions of what "win" means. 

For some people, grinding in-game to get the most awesome uber loot (even if that just means the most awesome LOOKING loot) is the be-all-and-end-all of the game. That's the entire point of the game to them, and if someone else can just come in and pay for some gems, convert it to gold, and then use that gold to buy whatever rare items they want, that person has just paid to "win the game". 

For other people, grinding for gold is not "noble" in and of itself, and doesn't deserve "protection". Some people have lots of time to spend farming gold, and they should be able to. Other people don't have the time to spend farming for gold, and those people should have access to all the cool looking gear in the game that the farmers have access to, because it's all for show anyway (stats are easily maxed, remember). Conversely, farmers can use this system to buy items that cost most people real money (by buying gems). Everyone gets to use whatever resource they have (time for gold, or real life money) to get what they want, so everyone wins, because it's PvE and no one should be viewing this as a competition. 

These viewpoints are fundamentally exclusive to each other. People who hold one viewpoint will always be talking past the people who hold the other. There is really no way to resolve this argument. ANet has chosen its position (which is that everyone should be able to afford anything, given enough time or money, because they're not selling power so everything else should just be for fun anyway), and if you viscerally disagree with that, there really isn't much else for you to do but not play the game. There WILL be people who are playing the game who bought gold via gems, and turned it into some shiny sword. Of course, those people exist in EVERY game. ANet's just legitimizing the practice. If you can't handle that...sorry, your goals and definitions of "winning" differ from mine, and ANet's. 

 

At the person above me: see, the reason that you're so vitriolic about this is (looking at your sig) that you think that the cash shop is going to significantly affect WvW. To this, I have two observations:

1) If true, that means that even without the gold -> gem exchange, teams would be able to achieve a significant advantage in WvW via gold farming. Is that really that much better?

2) Look at the influence boosts you can get in WvW. They are absolutely tiny. If *that* is the extent to which P2W exists in GW2, I can't imagine getting upset about it. Population disparities will affect WvW waaaaaay more than influence spending will. 

So would it also be ok if the cash shop sold a sword that gave you those same "tiny" performance boosts?

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

So would it also be ok if the cash shop sold a sword that gave you those same "tiny" performance boosts?

For me, it would be perfectly okay.

Originally posted by Justsomenoob

Peronally I plan on spending thousands of dollars in RL money to gain a serious fashion advantage.

 

How could anyone deal with me in pvp?

 

'he's got the green armor!  NO WAIT HE'S SWITCHING TO THE BLUE SHOES, OH GOD HE WENT BACK TO THE PURPLE SHOES RETREAT RETREAT"

+1

I'm going to applaud you as soon as I finish typing this.

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by Justsomenoob

Peronally I plan on spending thousands of dollars in RL money to gain a serious fashion advantage.

 

How could anyone deal with me in pvp?

 

'he's got the green armor!  NO WAIT HE'S SWITCHING TO THE BLUE SHOES, OH GOD HE WENT BACK TO THE PURPLE SHOES RETREAT RETREAT"

+1

I'm going to applaud you as soon as I finish typing this.

Right, because every single game out there with a cash shop didnt say before release that the cash shop was just about "items that dont affect the game" and then give it 6 months items that do affect the game start popping up :P Its completely unheard of, but I am sure ANet is different they are only doing GW2 for the love that they have for other people.

I'm still trying to figure out what the "win" in P2W means in GW2.  What do you "win", even if you can buy all the best gear out of the cash shop? Does having all he best gear mean you "win", when everyone else can get equal gear any number of ways that do not require money?

Even **if** they put such gear in the cash shop, and even **if** you defined "winning" as "having the best gear", at best it would be a "Pay 2 Tie" cash shop.

Perhaps you define "winning" as being able to dominate in PvP? Or PvE? How is that going to happen when you only have the same power gear as others, and in GW2 it's far, far more about skill than stats or gear?

I'm not sure the people who make thse kinds of threads or comments really understand the GW2 game design.