Originally posted by girdisorder

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

Originally posted by girdisorder

Why do females in guild wars look like doods with boobs, think the character creators need a lesson in anatomy.

 

And i like how Tera is the new standard for what's slutty and what's not... what was the old standard? probably thinking too far back; Duke Nukem 3D!

I'm thinking it's more likely that you do. This is what I mean about oversexualization in the media messing up how people think the world really is. :|

Moreover, if you've actually read my post, I didn't use it as a standard. I described the image posted as "the worst the industry has to offer", not the norm.

have you heard about this new korean mmo called "queen's blade"? might as well post a picture of that while you're at it. =X

Wow. I think I'd get in trouble for posting any of that. >_> lol

I think very few people areoffending because some  of the armors in a game are sexy and not that practical, the problem starts when you don´t have a choice.

GW2 and AoC offers indeed choices and you dress as you like and that is fine.

Tera on the other hand should really add a few things that looks like real armors to their skins.

EQ2 goes the other way, I had a fantaic feminist in my guild and even she admited that she wanted something a bit feminine as choice as well.

Good post OP with nice pictures. And no, I don´t want my char running around in just a loincloth but it doesn´t bother me iff that is one of the choices.

Originally posted by MattVid

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by MattVid

I am not one to really notice this stuff I guess, but you are right, the armor does look a little more realistic and modest. Unfortunately, I am sure we will still have millions of men running around as women characters.

And what's wrong with that. In every game I play both male & female characters and I don't see what the big deal is. Heck, my favourite champ in LoL is female and that's purely from a gameplay standpoint... Mostly.

There is nothing wrong with it, I guess I am more just tired of so many people doing it, and find it a little odd. I don't think I have ever played a female character unless there was no choice for that class.

To each their own, play whatever you want. I just find it wierd playing with people in TS/Vent/Mumble and hearing these deep manly voices assocaited with thier scanky ass characters in games ;)

That is pretty funny.

It isn't that it's a guy playing a female and you think it's a female.   Hell most guys playing female toons will be honest if you ask and say "I'm a guy".

But even when you know it's a guy and they've told you, it's always another thing entirely when you hear "SexySally" from the game in vent with this gruff male truckers voice hahaha

I can always agree with freedom of choice and the options being available. First Feminist thread I've read that was reasonable. Agree with OP. 

Removed the big TERA picture so the fanboys will shove off. :P

Thank you all for the continued discussion! Happy to see some real discussion.

one of the many things i liked about GW1 was the simple fact, playing a female toon you had a choice on the degree of armor plate you wore.  and the simple fact you did not look like a prostitute to do it.  female warriors actually looked like warriors not cosplay prostitutes.. 

my biggest gripe with any fantasy game is how they make female armor almost nonexistant.. if a female is a warrior/tank.. they should not have a metalplated swimsuit on... thats just retarded..there is dressing a female sexy and then there is just stupid dressing. 

GW had the sexy dressing done pretty well, very little over exposer on skin (least what wasnt warrented)  gw2 looks like its going the same route, giving the female toons the option to actually wear armor for a change instead of how most mmos make females wear metal bikinis... 

frankly the best way to turn me off from a game is to dress the warrior/tank classes in a metal bikini... given how squishy the human body is.. that just makes me facepalm 

Anyone on this forum actually a female? And are you a feminist? Because I feel like those would be the only types of people who would actually be offended about female character's clothing.

I mean sure you probably have an opinion on the matter, but I feel like this is like a bunch of white doods deciding on what's racist. Or more relative bunch of male congressmen deciding on what best for female healthcare.

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

Originally posted by colddog04

It's not really just about what YOUR character looks like, right? For those that think the outfits are too skimpy, they have to look around at a bunch of whores (in their mind) all the time.

So while yes, you can find conservative clothing in the game, the vast majority (as this flawless poll tells us) are going to be wearing sexy time outfits because they like them.

This post from the other thread just shows one of the kinds of attitude that is problematic here, and it's not just the "pro-sexualization" side. 

The idea that a female player shouldn't be able to wear skimpy armor because other people don't want to see it is worrying, at best. It's considered a problem for players to wear "offensive" skimpy armor that makes the fans of non-skimpy armor feel unhappy, but that argument never seems to work in reverse. Why is it not considered just as much of an issue that players who like skimpy armor themselves have to see everyone else in church wear?

One type of clothing is naturally considered to be "offensive" because it historically has been, rather than both extremes being considered potentially annoying. The Western cultural equivalent of a burka is no better than lingerie.

So the idea of "less skimpy armor please, I don't want to have to look at that"--the idea that female players should not be able to wear skimpy armor--is just moving into dangerous territory.

Hm...what about an option or a slider, then? I think some games have this kind of things for blood and gore, so that what I see and what you see in-game would be different. It could be a realistic bloodbath, or no blood at all, or anything in between, depending on our respective comfort level.

If people think this is important enough, what about the same for clothes? A game's rating is usually determined by these two factors, so I guess it makes sense to give them the same level of treatment. So every single armor sets should have 2  (or more) skins, corresponding to the setting. What you see in game would then depends on your setting, either everyone is going to church or to an orgy or something less extreme in between, your choice.

It would at least give a more consistent feel to the world for everyone involved, which is actually about the only thing I care about outfits in game...if some people wear skimpy clothes and others are in full plate armor, it actually raises a logical inconsistency about the setting that bugs me. Either full armor gives added protection and everyone will use it, or some magical property of the world (the same one that allows you to need to be impaled by a sword 5 times before dying) is rendering it useless, in which case no one will bother wearing heavy, stuffy full body armors.

So even your freedom to dress as what you like actually has a (minor) downside lol. It causes me to see two guardians, one wearing barely anything and the other encased in steel, and that ruins my immersion lol.

When I see issues like this it makes me wonder if NA gamers are even gamers at all or a bunch of conservative crybabies or left-wing extremist whinning at any given opportunity. Or some folks out there with low self-esteem thinking a game character stomps on her individual potrayl of herself as a female though the characters are clearly made up with unrealistic hollywood porportions.

Yes,  I rather have females have the option look attractive, sexy, or pretty than ugly and beaten down bloated blobs. The body is not an evil thing or something we should throw our hands over our eyes like it's shameful to look at but a work of art and self-expression.

What is the problem with Guild Wars 2? Nothing. In all it doesn't really make any sense as in real-life we see more sexualation on television, and in movies and even in music than we do in games. Just visit your local theater and tell me there isn't a single movie out there that doesn't potray a sexual theme or sexy scene or actors in the whole movie listing.

One of the main problems I believe that's been happening is that folks simply expect everyone to dress a certain way in games or be condemned. They expect every-single mmo or game out there to cater to an over childishly E-rated audience. When these expectations are met for whatever reason people go back to the stone-age and start condeming fantasy created games like 1800 pilgrims.  It's a wonder half of those raising complaints about Guild Wars 2 selection of female dressing ever been to places like Las Vegas. Looks like they wouldn't even make it pass the door without having a heart-attack.

It's like we can't get pass the baby-stage of gaming and grow-up anymore, and the only ones that will squawk and kick about it are prudes and those who want gaming to stay stuck like it's Disney rated across the board for every game or some overbearing political agenda nonsense.

Simple matter of fact is if you don't like a game it's much easier not to buy it and allow the others who don't mind or care to play the game in peace and enjoy the content.  And as for TERA? So what who *cares*. The game is M-rated for a reason. There's so many games to choose from it shouldn't be an excuse of the "I DON'T LIKE IT SO NO ONE ELSE SHOULD LIKE IT" either sympton like we're 8-year olds.

As for feminist groups their becoming more and more like control-freaks than anything else and their leaking into the games. Can't watch this, can't dress like this, can't do this or that like everyone thinks their way and do their things. It's like a badgering old catholic mum gnawing at the ear and condeming everything like a school marm under the flag of supposed "equality" by taking away the player's choice of how they wish to dress their characters in a product they paid for. Even with options of wearing pants or a skirt.

I really don't want the school marms nonsense nunning up the games to ridicolous porportions because they go overboard with it and it starts to become a control issue of how a player can even self-express or choose to dress their character anymore.

Maybe I sound weird but I simply don't compare game characters to myself as an individual. I'm worth more than some $60 box carton.

Originally posted by Loke666

I think very few people areoffending because some  of the armors in a game are sexy and not that practical, the problem starts when you don´t have a choice.

GW2 and AoC offers indeed choices and you dress as you like and that is fine.

Tera on the other hand should really add a few things that looks like real armors to their skins.

EQ2 goes the other way, I had a fantaic feminist in my guild and even she admited that she wanted something a bit feminine as choice as well.

Good post OP with nice pictures. And no, I don´t want my char running around in just a loincloth but it doesn´t bother me iff that is one of the choices.

If I had a fanatic feminist in my guild I would leave that guild. I think men and women should be equal. And if someone hates me just because I am a man I will not like it. Its like racism really. Why should anyone accept people that think like that.

Originally posted by BrainDeadG

When I see issues like this it makes me wonder if NA gamers are even gamers at all or a bunch of conservative crybabies whinning at any given opportunity. Or some folks out there with low self-esteem thinking a game character stomps on her individual potrayl of herself as a female though the characters are clearly made up with unrealistic hollywood porportions.

Yes,  I rather have females have the option look attractive, sexy, or pretty than ugly and beaten down bloated blobs.

 

What is the problem with Guild Wars 2? Nothing. In all it doesn't really make any sense as in real-life we see more sexualation on television, and in movies and even in music than we do in games. Just visit your local theater and tell me there isn't a single movie out there that doesn't potray a sexual theme or sexy scene or actors in the whole movie listing.

One of the main problems I believe that's been happening is that folks simply expect everyone to dress a certain way in games or be condemned. They expect every-single mmo or game out there to cater to an over childishly E-rated audience. When these expectations are met for whatever reason people go back to the stone-age and start condeming fantasy created games like 1800 pilgrims.  It's a wonder half of those raising complaints about Guild Wars 2 selection of female dressing ever been to places like Las Vegas. Looks like they wouldn't even make it pass the door without having a heart-attack.

It's like we can't get pass the baby-stage of gaming and grow-up anymore, and the only ones that will squawk and kick about it are prudes and those who want gaming to stay stuck like it's Disney rated across the board for every game or some overbearing political agenda nonsense.

Simple matter of fact is if you don't like a game it's much easier not to buy it and allow the others who don't mind or care to play the game in peace.  And as for TERA? So what who *cares*. The game is M-rated for a reason. There's so many games to choose from it shouldn't be an excuse of the "I DON'T LIKE IT SO NO ONE ELSE SHOULD LIKE IT" either sympton.

I'm having a hard time seeing where you're coming from. The prudishness over the video game industry generally comes from outsiders, non-gamers and politicians and older people, rather than from within the gaming industry. I'd hardly call the gaming industry standard "Disney rated across the board"...

Originally posted by girdisorder

Anyone on this forum actually a female? And are you a feminist? Because I feel like those would be the only types of people who would actually be offended about female character's clothing.

 

I mean sure you probably have an opinion on the matter, but I feel like this is like a bunch of white doods deciding on what's racist. Or more relative bunch of male congressmen deciding on what best for female healthcare.

A quick look at my original post and my forum profile will answer this question for you.

While I understand the concern over whether it's a bunch of men talking about women's issues, I still feel it's important to, one, keep an open dialog and make sure the reasonable medium is heard. A lot of people are under the impression that feminists all want female characters to not look sexy and be covered up, there are a great deal of feminists who either feel the opposite or are more in the middle like myself. So it's important to speak up so people don't end up convincing themselves that the vocal minority is the majority. And, more importantly, as I said, to promote dialogue.

Originally posted by Hurvart

 

If I had a fanatic feminist in my guild I would leave that guild. I think men and women should be equal. And if someone hates me just because I am a man I will not like it. Its like racism really. Why should anyone accept people that think like that.

most serious feminists feel the same as you about wanting men and women to be equal.

people who hate men are not necessarily feminists, those are just people who hate men.  that is a separate and distinct thing.

as far as feminists being offended at skimpy outfits. it happens.  but as i said earlier in the thread - it also happens that sexist people are offended because they see a woman in a skimpy outfit and label her a "whore" or "skank."  they don't like playing games where all the women lack basic morality.  it is their perception that ties outfits and morality together that is in error.

like most issues of equal rights.  it doesn't matter if anyone personally agrees with it.  it is frankly the norm that many do not because they simply do not understand it, otherwise the problem would not exist or need detailing.  

many great equal rights leaders are grounded in their beliefs because their views are correct.  those who disagree are wrong or lack perspective.  this includes feminism.  it is not about hating men, it is about being correct and treating everyone in a just and respectful manner - women and men alike.

I kind of wish they made low level female casters a bit more clothed, especially in the norn area. I was running up a mountain and I basically was looking up some female norn's skirt because of the angle of the slope. The low level casters don't really have a lot of options for their clothing besides those skimpy clothes and it feels pretty awkward in the mountainous regions. MY IMMERSIUN!

But from what I've seen the armor will progress and options should open up to the female casters with transmute stones. I don't think people will have much of a problem at higher levels with all the options they have.

Originally posted by BrainDeadG

As for feminist groups their becoming more and more like control-freaks than anything else and their leaking into the games. Can't watch this, can't dress like this, can't do this or that like everyone thinks their way and do their things. It's like a badgering old catholic mum gnawing at the ear and condeming everything like a school marm under the flag of supposed "equality" by taking away the player's choice of how they wish to dress their characters in a product they paid for. Even with options of wearing pants or a skirt.

I really don't want the school marms nonsense nunning up the games to ridicolous porportions because they go overboard with it and it starts to become a control issue of how a player can even self-express or choose to dress their character anymore.

 

Maybe I sound weird but I simply don't compare game characters to myself as an individual. I'm worth more than some $60 box carton.

Way to edit your post and add some trash into the end of it. -_- Why not just make a new post?

I guess you missed the part where it's a feminist writing this post saying, hey, revealing armor is okay! Have you considered that you're just hearing the vocal minority? I've heard just as many men say armor needs to get less revealing, and not for feminist reasons.

Anyway, you're missing the point.

Aside from some exceptions from both feminists and non-feminists, most feminist critique of revealing armor on women in the gaming industry is focused on sexualization in the media, not "how people should be allowed to dress". There's a lot of female gamers like myself who feel downright degraded, disgusted, and insulted by regular media portrayal of women as sex objects. 

It's very often a valid concern, but unfortunately for this game you're getting a lot of people who are on both sides and extreme, or just plain old uninformed.

Originally posted by ananda

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

Originally posted by colddog04

It's not really just about what YOUR character looks like, right? For those that think the outfits are too skimpy, they have to look around at a bunch of whores (in their mind) all the time.

So while yes, you can find conservative clothing in the game, the vast majority (as this flawless poll tells us) are going to be wearing sexy time outfits because they like them.

This post from the other thread just shows one of the kinds of attitude that is problematic here, and it's not just the "pro-sexualization" side. 

The idea that a female player shouldn't be able to wear skimpy armor because other people don't want to see it is worrying, at best. It's considered a problem for players to wear "offensive" skimpy armor that makes the fans of non-skimpy armor feel unhappy, but that argument never seems to work in reverse. Why is it not considered just as much of an issue that players who like skimpy armor themselves have to see everyone else in church wear?

One type of clothing is naturally considered to be "offensive" because it historically has been, rather than both extremes being considered potentially annoying. The Western cultural equivalent of a burka is no better than lingerie.

So the idea of "less skimpy armor please, I don't want to have to look at that"--the idea that female players should not be able to wear skimpy armor--is just moving into dangerous territory.

Hm...what about an option or a slider, then? I think some games have this kind of things for blood and gore, so that what I see and what you see in-game would be different. It could be a realistic bloodbath, or no blood at all, or anything in between, depending on our respective comfort level.

 

If people think this is important enough, what about the same for clothes? A game's rating is usually determined by these two factors, so I guess it makes sense to give them the same level of treatment. So every single armor sets should have 2  (or more) skins, corresponding to the setting. What you see in game would then depends on your setting, either everyone is going to church or to an orgy or something less extreme in between, your choice.

 

It would at least give a more consistent feel to the world for everyone involved, which is actually about the only thing I care about outfits in game...if some people wear skimpy clothes and others are in full plate armor, it actually raises a logical inconsistency about the setting that bugs me. Either full armor gives added protection and everyone will use it, or some magical property of the world (the same one that allows you to need to be impaled by a sword 5 times before dying) is rendering it useless, in which case no one will bother wearing heavy, stuffy full body armors.

 

So even your freedom to dress as what you like actually has a (minor) downside lol. It causes me to see two guardians, one wearing barely anything and the other encased in steel, and that ruins my immersion lol.

I really have a problem with this idea, personally.

In a single player game it makes a lot of sense. But you bring that idea into a massively multiplayer game and it has some troubling implications.

The idea that I can dress my character in a way I percieve to be acceptable and that someone can either cover my character up because they're offended, or artificially take clothes off of my character because they're...well, creepy. Furthermore, why should game developers have to develop such an extensive, extremely work-heavy program inside the game that doesn't add to anyone's fun, simply because some people are either prudish or perverts?

On top of that, most serious critique of revealing armor in videogames is about the media treatment of women as sexual objects and how that affects our culture. It's a very valid concern, and it's not one that simply goes away because you can't see it happening.

No, really it needs to come down to two things.

1. Gamers need to grow up.
2. Game developers need to grow up.

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

I really have a problem with this idea, personally.

In a single player game it makes a lot of sense. But you bring that idea into a massively multiplayer game and it has some troubling implications.

The idea that I can dress my character in a way I percieve to be acceptable and that someone can either cover my character up because they're offended, or artificially take clothes off of my character because they're...well, creepy. Furthermore, why should game developers have to develop such an extensive, extremely work-heavy program inside the game that doesn't add to anyone's fun, simply because some people are either prudish or perverts?

On top of that, most serious critique of revealing armor in videogames is about the media treatment of women as sexual objects and how that affects our culture. It's a very valid concern, and it's not one that simply goes away because you can't see it happening.

No, really it needs to come down to two things.

1. Gamers need to grow up.
2. Game developers need to grow up.

Some people like to wear skimpy clothing. Some people like to wear burkas. Some people like a little of both. Unless there's real issues of women being portrayed across the board as sex objects, then we don't have a problem. Everyone deserves to dress their avatars the way they like without being made to feel uncomfortable, shamed, violated, or stifled.

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Can you elaborate more about the troubling implications that you mentioned? And what is different in single player and mmo context that the idea is good for one but bad for the other? I'm just curious

For development effort concern, I'll take your word for it. For me, I don't even think that things like the dye system or extensive character creation system is worth their time either (I press random a few times or just accept the default when creating a character), so obviously I do think that this idea is a waste of their time. If you say that this is a different level of time wasting than those other cosmetic features in the game, then great , lets just forget about it.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong: does your last paragraph means that potrayal of women (and men, I presume?) accross the board as sex objects is a problem, but not having the freedom to choose to portray your personal avatar as a sex object is also a problem?

Originally posted by ananda

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

I really have a problem with this idea, personally.

In a single player game it makes a lot of sense. But you bring that idea into a massively multiplayer game and it has some troubling implications.

The idea that I can dress my character in a way I percieve to be acceptable and that someone can either cover my character up because they're offended, or artificially take clothes off of my character because they're...well, creepy. Furthermore, why should game developers have to develop such an extensive, extremely work-heavy program inside the game that doesn't add to anyone's fun, simply because some people are either prudish or perverts?

On top of that, most serious critique of revealing armor in videogames is about the media treatment of women as sexual objects and how that affects our culture. It's a very valid concern, and it's not one that simply goes away because you can't see it happening.

No, really it needs to come down to two things.

1. Gamers need to grow up.
2. Game developers need to grow up.

Some people like to wear skimpy clothing. Some people like to wear burkas. Some people like a little of both. Unless there's real issues of women being portrayed across the board as sex objects, then we don't have a problem. Everyone deserves to dress their avatars the way they like without being made to feel uncomfortable, shamed, violated, or stifled.

Sorry, I don't understand your point. Can you elaborate more about the troubling implications that you mentioned? And what is different in single player and mmo context that the idea is good for one but bad for the other? I'm just curious

For development effort concern, I'll take your word for it. For me, I don't even think that things like the dye system or extensive character creation system is worth their time either (I press random a few times or just accept the default when creating a character), so obviously I do think that this idea is a waste of their time. If you say that this is a different level of time wasting than those other cosmetic features in the game, then great , lets just forget about it.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong: does your last paragraph means that potrayal of women (and men, I presume?) accross the board as sex objects is a problem, but not having the freedom to choose to portray your personal avatar as a sex object is also a problem?

I'll try to explain what I mean a little better--these are sort of complex topics so it's not always easy. 

Let's put it this way. In a single-player game, if you have say a toggle where the player can toggle on and off revealing clothing, that's not really a bad thing. He or she is just affecting themselves.

But when you bring that to a multiplayer game, suddenly someone is forcing their personal preferences and morality on me, and they're taking away my style choices. Gaming avatars are just that, avatars, the reason why customization (and dye systems!) is so important in video games, especially MMORPGs, is because people can express themselves through those mediums.

So any time you're forcefully removing that personal avatar design choice it's not really a pleasant thing. But it gets even worse if it's a revealing/non-revealing slider. I'm surprised this part of the argument needs to be made clear but I'll do my best.

If I'm attached to my avatar, if that's how I express myself, the idea of someone toggling my clothes partway off is frankly disturbing. I would never, ever play a game that allowed people to do that. It's like photoshopping someone's face onto a pornography picture. It doesn't really affect you, but it's still an expression of yourself. It removes what free choice you have in the game and has creepy, unappealing implications.

Frankly, if I feel uncomfortable dressing my avatar in revealing clothing, why would I be okay with other people artificially doing that to me anyway?

It's still not great in reverse, even if it's not as creepy. If I don't want people artificially removing my character's clothing, I don't want them sticking a burka on me either. You see this sometimes in conservative newspapers, especially in less modern societies--our own politicians will be artificually covered up by prudish newspapers or websites, when all they're doing is showing a socially appropriate amount of skin, say on their neck or shoulder bones.

That's $#@&ing insulting. If a person can't survive seeing tan or dark brown pixels on other people's avatars, then a modern society is really not the place for them. And as I said with the "make this more revealing" slider, it removes the point of customizing your own avatar.

tl;dr Again, people need to just grow up and accept that others have tastes different from themselves. 

Edit: I forgot to respond to your last paragraph. What I said was that media portrayal of women as sex objects is a problem. People portraying themselves as they want to be portrayed isn't. So long as that choice is not made for gamers, the media portrayal of women isn't going to be hugely skewed. 

Choosing to wear revealing clothing =/= choosing to portray yourself as a sex object.

And I don't really personally feel that men are regularly portrayed as sex objects in video games but yes, when it occurs it is still problematic. 

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

I'll try to explain what I mean a little better--these are sort of complex topics so it's not always easy. 

Let's put it this way. In a single-player game, if you have say a toggle where the player can toggle on and off revealing clothing, that's not really a bad thing. He or she is just affecting themselves.

But when you bring that to a multiplayer game, suddenly someone is forcing their personal preferences and morality on me, and they're taking away my style choices. Gaming avatars are just that, avatars, the reason why customization (and dye systems!) is so important in video games, especially MMORPGs, is because people can express themselves through those mediums.

So any time you're forcefully removing that personal avatar design choice it's not really a pleasant thing. But it gets even worse if it's a revealing/non-revealing slider. I'm surprised this part of the argument needs to be made clear but I'll do my best.

If I'm attached to my avatar, if that's how I express myself, the idea of someone toggling my clothes partway off is frankly disturbing. I would never, ever play a game that allowed people to do that. It's like photoshopping someone's face onto a pornography picture. It doesn't really affect you, but it's still an expression of yourself. It removes what free choice you have in the game and has creepy, unappealing implications.

Frankly, if I feel uncomfortable dressing my avatar in revealing clothing, why would I be okay with other people artificially doing that to me anyway?

It's still not great in reverse, even if it's not as creepy. If I don't want people artificially removing my character's clothing, I don't want them sticking a burka on me either. You see this sometimes in conservative newspapers, especially in less modern societies--our own politicians will be artificually covered up by prudish newspapers or websites, when all they're doing is showing a socially appropriate amount of skin, say on their neck or shoulder bones.

That's $#@&ing insulting. If a person can't survive seeing tan or dark brown pixels on other people's avatars, then a modern society is really not the place for them. And as I said with the "make this more revealing" slider, it removes the point of customizing your own avatar.

tl;dr Again, people need to just grow up and accept that others have tastes different from themselves. 

Edit: I forgot to respond to your last paragraph. What I said was that media portrayal of women as sex objects is a problem. People portraying themselves as they want to be portrayed isn't. So long as that choice is not made for gamers, the media portrayal of women isn't going to be hugely skewed. 

Choosing to wear revealing clothing =/= choosing to portray yourself as a sex object.

And I don't really personally feel that men are regularly portrayed as sex objects in video games but yes, when it occurs it is still problematic. 

Alright, thanks for the clear explanation :) 

I still disagree with your implication that all modern person will have the same standard about what is appropriate. What is and is not deemed appropriate varies depending on a lot of things, I don't think it is just a matter of "growing up". I think the US obscenity law puts it best in trying to define obscenity. One of the key criteria is that "the average person, applying contemporary community standards would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest". The key thing is that what is deemed obscene is local, not universal or even national. It varies from community to community. I think saying things like "a modern society is really not the place for them" is too harsh. Who can say if our standard is better or more correct than theirs?

Originally posted by ananda

Originally posted by Poison_Adele

I'll try to explain what I mean a little better--these are sort of complex topics so it's not always easy. 

Let's put it this way. In a single-player game, if you have say a toggle where the player can toggle on and off revealing clothing, that's not really a bad thing. He or she is just affecting themselves.

But when you bring that to a multiplayer game, suddenly someone is forcing their personal preferences and morality on me, and they're taking away my style choices. Gaming avatars are just that, avatars, the reason why customization (and dye systems!) is so important in video games, especially MMORPGs, is because people can express themselves through those mediums.

So any time you're forcefully removing that personal avatar design choice it's not really a pleasant thing. But it gets even worse if it's a revealing/non-revealing slider. I'm surprised this part of the argument needs to be made clear but I'll do my best.

If I'm attached to my avatar, if that's how I express myself, the idea of someone toggling my clothes partway off is frankly disturbing. I would never, ever play a game that allowed people to do that. It's like photoshopping someone's face onto a pornography picture. It doesn't really affect you, but it's still an expression of yourself. It removes what free choice you have in the game and has creepy, unappealing implications.

Frankly, if I feel uncomfortable dressing my avatar in revealing clothing, why would I be okay with other people artificially doing that to me anyway?

It's still not great in reverse, even if it's not as creepy. If I don't want people artificially removing my character's clothing, I don't want them sticking a burka on me either. You see this sometimes in conservative newspapers, especially in less modern societies--our own politicians will be artificually covered up by prudish newspapers or websites, when all they're doing is showing a socially appropriate amount of skin, say on their neck or shoulder bones.

That's $#@&ing insulting. If a person can't survive seeing tan or dark brown pixels on other people's avatars, then a modern society is really not the place for them. And as I said with the "make this more revealing" slider, it removes the point of customizing your own avatar.

tl;dr Again, people need to just grow up and accept that others have tastes different from themselves. 

Edit: I forgot to respond to your last paragraph. What I said was that media portrayal of women as sex objects is a problem. People portraying themselves as they want to be portrayed isn't. So long as that choice is not made for gamers, the media portrayal of women isn't going to be hugely skewed. 

Choosing to wear revealing clothing =/= choosing to portray yourself as a sex object.

And I don't really personally feel that men are regularly portrayed as sex objects in video games but yes, when it occurs it is still problematic. 

Alright, thanks for the clear explanation :) 

I still disagree with your implication that all modern person will have the same standard about what is appropriate. What is and is not deemed appropriate varies depending on a lot of things, I don't think it is just a matter of "growing up". I think the US obscenity law puts it best in trying to define obscenity. One of the key criteria is that "the average person, applying contemporary community standards would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest". The key thing is that what is deemed obscene is local, not universal or even national. It varies from community to community. I think saying things like "a modern society is really not the place for them" is too harsh. Who can say if our standard is better or more correct than theirs?

If I made it seem like I think all modern people have the same standard, my apologies! :) I really don't feel that way! But there are general social standards, averages if you will, regarding what most people can walk around in and not usually get weird looks for. Obviously that differs and the gaming community I think has a younger and more open-minded population than, say, older people sitting at home watching TV. 

I'm not really going to bother debating over whether or not one standard is better but... If someone's standard is to get mad because someone else doesn't share their preference then yes, I'd argue their standard is inherently worse than the "accept a variety of preferences from others" standard. One forces itself on others, one doesn't.

But honestly that's a whole 'nother bag, so I'll put my opinion more simply:

So long as a person's personal choices do not negative affect others, it's their business. Forcing every female character to look oversexualized--it encourages treatment of women as sex objects, excludes female players, etc. Forcing every female character to wear burkas is also harmful. I know that most male gamers are going to agree that this is bad, just not that forcing skimpy TERA armor is bad. 

So forcing a choice on how I play/look is bad, but it doesn't negatively affect everyone else if my character shows a little skin. 

It's a very soft form of censorship/oppression for other people to keep other players from being able to look the way they wish simply because it offends their sensibilities, rather than because it degrades or insults them. We don't really enforce censorship of viewpoints, so why are we censoring anything else? Censorship is almost always bad, freedom to look the way you like really isn't.

I could say the same goes for male gamers and male players but I'm not going to assume I know how male gamers feel. I definitely do think that there are lots of instances where men are probably going to feel devalued because of how men are always portrayed, but I just don't know. I'm not going to speak for a perspective I haven't experienced. But if guys tell me that they feel that way then it's important to respect that instead of bitching about men's rights activists or something like that.

Edited to be a bit less rambly.

Originally posted by Quenchster

I kind of wish they made low level female casters a bit more clothed, especially in the norn area. I was running up a mountain and I basically was looking up some female norn's skirt because of the angle of the slope. The low level casters don't really have a lot of options for their clothing besides those skimpy clothes and it feels pretty awkward in the mountainous regions. MY IMMERSIUN!

But from what I've seen the armor will progress and options should open up to the female casters with transmute stones. I don't think people will have much of a problem at higher levels with all the options they have.

Only the beginner's armor (Acolyte Set) has a mini-skirt and you are not going to wear it for too long (unless you want so, of course). The OP is right in everything she said, having the option to look how you like is one of the best things about armor in this game, and there is a lot of variety.