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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » A problem plaguing modern MMOs.

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59 posts found
  GamerUntouch

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 491

 
OP  7/07/12 11:37:58 AM#1

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game

I think we all know that though.The problem is, devs don't. They're not making ORPGs. The games are multiplayer by concept, but there's no reason for the other players to be there.

 

There's people running around with you, but they might as well be AI.

They don't impact you at all, except for maybe the marketplace or the global chat.

 

What's everyone's opinion on this?

How can we stop it?

  Squal'Zell

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 1809

"Next time i log in SWG ill probably see elves and druids"

7/07/12 11:59:36 AM#2
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game

I think we all know that though.The problem is, devs don't. They're not making ORPGs. The games are multiplayer by concept, but there's no reason for the other players to be there.

 

There's people running around with you, but they might as well be AI.

They don't impact you at all, except for maybe the marketplace or the global chat.

 

What's everyone's opinion on this?

How can we stop it?

although i agree with you

i would like to add 2 thins

1. In any MMORPG you SHOULD NEVER be self sufficient. you need to interact with others. grouping is a must to achieve things. solo play should be available but only as a "super hard mode" and should not give better rewards than when you do something with a group. now some might say, its hard to find PUGs, you dont always have time to do something and people quit all the time. i say, its the game that is not properly made. for one, its hard to find decent PUGs because everyone is going solo since its more rewarding. but i can assure you that if EVERYONE required to group to do missions, you would have EVERYONE looking for groups. adding a game mechanic that would allow to Identify good players from grieffers. (one thing would be a kill/death ratio. another can be guild history with timestamps. achievements saying what you have completed etc.

2. player economy. this will force interaction. and force people to actually talk with their crafters or ressource suppliers. 

 

 

now the excuses are that you dont always have time to look for crafters or vendors that you just want to log in play a bit and log out.

buy skyrim and play a single player game. you dont register to a football (soccer, futbol) league and whine that you cant use your hands. they will simply tell you to go play handball or basketball. 

but if i look at the other side of the medal, people are willing to pay a subscription to play single player games online?

as an investor and company i see 1,000,000 subscribers who want a single player online game and 300,000 who want a real MMORPG. the decision is easy. all my money goes to the development of the single player online game.  i played UO > SWG > EvE > and if no one is online to do anything i load up skyrim or ME3 or any other single player game if i feel like PVE or TF2 or Tribes when i feel like PvP i dont go out complaining that i cant play solo in a game made for multiplayer, the same i dont complain that i cant touch the ball with my hands in futbol a game made to be played with your feet.

 

 

 


  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

7/07/12 12:08:33 PM#3

You stop it by going to the group play vs solo play thread and ranting there.

Ok, that's a little harsh.

In my opinion, you make games more interactive by improving the signal-to-noise ratio of interaction.   It takes only a tiny amount of spam, scam, trolling and abuse to make people who are not extreme extraverts completely tune out a communication channel.  If you want people to feel comfortable chatting with strangers, you have to make sure they feel there is more to be gained than lost by saying hello.

It's an emotional calculation, not an economic one.  Forcing people to be dependant only works if the joys outweigh the frustrations.  It may seem like you're increasing interaction, but there's a strong danger that you're doing it by just shrinking your playerbase to a niche of like-minded people.

  User Deleted
7/07/12 12:12:48 PM#4
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game

I think we all know that though.The problem is, devs don't. They're not making ORPGs. The games are multiplayer by concept, but there's no reason for the other players to be there.

 

There's people running around with you, but they might as well be AI.

They don't impact you at all, except for maybe the marketplace or the global chat.

 

What's everyone's opinion on this?

How can we stop it?

You don't, can't and won't stop anything.

The mass market decides the course of the mmo genre, because they're the ones that make up most of the buyers.

OP, i agree with you, really i do, but you can't do anything. Either look for other titles beyond the "big ones" coming out or accept them.

 

 

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

7/07/12 12:19:07 PM#5
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

What's everyone's opinion on this?

How can we stop it?

By convincing said players that's it's worth it to mingle/group.

If rewards swung heavily towards the player that groups, and if progression could prove to be equal or faster tha soloing, then people would - but as is - they won't.

Otherwise, quest structure needs to trick people into it, kind of like how Face of Mankind gave missions to have some people make/sell drugs, and then have others attempt to bust them for it (or for any reason, really). APB is a good-ish example too, when the pairings worked right.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

7/07/12 12:36:53 PM#6

This is not a question of Solo play vs Group play, this is a question of MMORPG being just an MMO no longer an RPG.

But regardless of what anyone's views are, there will never be a MMORPG that forces you to group, that makes the Economy of the game based on Gamers only or anything that will make the game difficult.

The reason is because of one thing and one thing only, ITS A BUSINESS

Developers don't make games to be a game, they make it so that they can attract players, enough players that will turn a profit. Because without profits, developers don't get paid, when they don't get paid, they can't pay their bills, and when they can't pay their bills, they go bankrupt and the game dies.

What many have described is perfect, that would be the dream MMORPG, but it will never appeal to the masses when there are games out there that they can log in for 5 minutes, do a quest then quit for the night. Only when there is millions of players signs an Life Time Purchase that they will pay for this game for certain and that there will be no refunds, only when that happens will there ever be a game that plays like an ORPG.

Just take a look of the most asked mechanics for an newly developed MMO, one of the top asked tools to be implemented is the LFG tool, the instant transport dungeon finder and group builder. Great to provide convenience, but horrible at making the game actually an MMORPG.

IF you ask all the new MMO players what are the must have mechanics, you will be extremely surprised by the answer, compared to the old schooled players.

 

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Larsa

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

7/07/12 12:37:04 PM#7


Originally posted by GamerUntouch
MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game I think we all know that though.The problem is, devs don't. ...

Oh, devs know, they know very well, they're making games that a lot of people buy, like millions of people.


Originally posted by GamerUntouch
What's everyone's opinion on this?

My opinion? I don't care what the big studios and publishers do. I've stopped playing their AAA titles years ago, there are plenty of other sandbox/indie games for me to play.


Originally posted by GamerUntouch
How can we stop it?

We can't. Their games sell very well, why would they stop to make them?

I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  Mueslinator

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/08/11
Posts: 78

7/07/12 12:52:03 PM#8
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game

I think we all know that though.The problem is, devs don't. They're not making ORPGs. The games are multiplayer by concept, but there's no reason for the other players to be there.

 

There's people running around with you, but they might as well be AI.

They don't impact you at all, except for maybe the marketplace or the global chat.

 

What's everyone's opinion on this?

How can we stop it?

 

i think it's a misconception that other players don't impact you by being there. ATM, I'm playing TSW. The sheer fact that I see players around me makes me feel in a social setting. That I have to watch out what they do, maybe help them out of a tight spot (or get helped out!), spontaneously grouping up for a quest ("Hey, are you on 'Once they were beautiful 3/4? Wanna join up?") or just listening to faction pride and banter in my faction channel.

 

What you seem to want is forced grouping (if that is incorrect, I offer my apologies). And that's not something I want ever to see again in any MMO.

 

So there's, from my perspective, no reason to stop anything. It's working in TSW in just a way I like.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

7/07/12 12:54:33 PM#9

M'yes.

The majority of gamers out there are wallflowers, content with just watching other's use chat and seeing an occasional passerby. All it takes these days.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6154

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

7/07/12 1:16:07 PM#10
Originally posted by Squal'Zell
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Game

I think we all know that though.The problem is, devs don't. They're not making ORPGs. The games are multiplayer by concept, but there's no reason for the other players to be there.

 

There's people running around with you, but they might as well be AI.

They don't impact you at all, except for maybe the marketplace or the global chat.

 

What's everyone's opinion on this?

How can we stop it?

although i agree with you

i would like to add 2 thins

1. In any MMORPG you SHOULD NEVER be self sufficient. you need to interact with others. grouping is a must to achieve things. solo play should be available but only as a "super hard mode" and should not give better rewards than when you do something with a group. now some might say, its hard to find PUGs, you dont always have time to do something and people quit all the time. i say, its the game that is not properly made. for one, its hard to find decent PUGs because everyone is going solo since its more rewarding. but i can assure you that if EVERYONE required to group to do missions, you would have EVERYONE looking for groups. adding a game mechanic that would allow to Identify good players from grieffers. (one thing would be a kill/death ratio. another can be guild history with timestamps. achievements saying what you have completed etc.

2. player economy. this will force interaction. and force people to actually talk with their crafters or ressource suppliers. 

 

 

now the excuses are that you dont always have time to look for crafters or vendors that you just want to log in play a bit and log out.

buy skyrim and play a single player game. you dont register to a football (soccer, futbol) league and whine that you cant use your hands. they will simply tell you to go play handball or basketball. 

but if i look at the other side of the medal, people are willing to pay a subscription to play single player games online?

as an investor and company i see 1,000,000 subscribers who want a single player online game and 300,000 who want a real MMORPG. the decision is easy. all my money goes to the development of the single player online game.  i played UO > SWG > EvE > and if no one is online to do anything i load up skyrim or ME3 or any other single player game if i feel like PVE or TF2 or Tribes when i feel like PvP i dont go out complaining that i cant play solo in a game made for multiplayer, the same i dont complain that i cant touch the ball with my hands in futbol a game made to be played with your feet.

 

 

 

 Wow....just wow, I almost started to think I was the only person on these forums that also like you play's other genre of games to satisfied specific gaming needs.

I do the same, if I want quick action or pvp I have plenty of FPS type of games to play, if I want to be abit more stratigic I play either arcade RTS like C&C or if in a deeper RTS mood I play SoaS. If I want story in my game then I love playing singleplayer RPG's.

But if I am in the mood for a MMORPG I need to have my freedom, give me that for a virtual world to play in, but that world can either be sci-fi or fantasy or hybrid, aslong it's nothing like The Sims as in being a "real world", but certain feature's are feature's like in TheSims I don't mind having in a MMORPG.

But as you say people demand what they already can get from other genre's of gaming instead of letting MMORPG's go far beyond what we already can get out of other genre's.

Don't get me wrong I also want elements of other genre's but I want to see it go beyond it's singleplayer element. I don't want a NPC to tell me to kill 20 wolfs, I like  a player to send out a request about killing 20 wolfs, cause his own lvl is far to low to defeat the wolfs infront of his house. I want a player to send out a request because he needs 20 wolf pelts and will pay X credits for it or crafts you that leather armor you so needed.

MMORPG's used to be games for very patient gamers, I have a few impatient friends while they are not into MMORPG's they do play other type of games and when something takes to long they just quit.

What you said about those investors is indeed true, so towards OP, we still need to have patients and hope one day some AAA tittle will satisfied the needs of those of use who want a deeper experiance that isn't just a online combat game with some lvlíng.

  Palebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/04
Posts: 3247

7/07/12 1:31:37 PM#11
Originally posted by maplestone

You stop it by going to the group play vs solo play thread and ranting there.

Ok, that's a little harsh.

In my opinion, you make games more interactive by improving the signal-to-noise ratio of interaction.   It takes only a tiny amount of spam, scam, trolling and abuse to make people who are not extreme extraverts completely tune out a communication channel.  If you want people to feel comfortable chatting with strangers, you have to make sure they feel there is more to be gained than lost by saying hello.

It's an emotional calculation, not an economic one.  Forcing people to be dependant only works if the joys outweigh the frustrations.  It may seem like you're increasing interaction, but there's a strong danger that you're doing it by just shrinking your playerbase to a niche of like-minded people.

 I've never really thought about it that way, but I think you are right. One of the things that made the old-school communities so strong is that they were already a nich of like-minded people. Sure there were still assholes, but it seemed like most of the people had your back. These days its really a free-for-all dog-eat-dog out there. I used to be very social because I knew whatever I said, someone would find it amusing and I could make a new friend. These days, you can't say anything without at least one smartass trying to make you feel like shit.

Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

7/07/12 1:44:30 PM#12

     I think you pretty much nailed it OP......Also they are trying too hard to entertain us and not hard enough to give us a game where we make the entertainment.....I look at games like SWTOR and TSW as prime examples....WHile cutscenes may have been great in a single player game like Dragon Age, they are a distraction in a MMO......

  Amsai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/16/11
Posts: 69

7/07/12 1:48:04 PM#13

I am about to say something some of you will probably dislike.

 

The argument that people that want to play solo or people that cant find PUGs should just go play a sprpg just doesnt hold water. I can't believe youve missed one of the most important parts about MMOs that goes beyond a simple group vs solo argument. Its a persistent world, it doesnt end when I beat something, and it is always updated with new content and usually for years to come, with constant character progression. This is the main reason why I play MMOs. Sure I could just go play Skyrim, and yes they will put out a couple of add-on DLCs, but what after that? I am sorry but one of the most disappointing aspects of SPRPGs is that they have to end, and all the time I invested in them seems fruitless to a degree.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea of community, and all that come with it. But sometimes I do want to play solo, but due to the reasons listed above, that sort of sucks.

If someone were to come out with an off-line game like skyrim (or demon souls etc) with very frequent and long (very long) lasting content updates or even something as ridiculous as  Mssively Single Player Online RPG I would sooooooo sub to it. Not full time mind you, because I'd still have a craving for the community aspect of MMOs. Just something I thought I'd bring up seeing as everyone seems to always assume that the easy fix for people that want to solo is to just go play a sprpg.

So what now? What is your answer to this? That I should just suck it up? Or wait for a dev to put out something like I just mentioned? Or maybe we can stop the ridiculous concentration on the definitions of what is a TRUE (lol) MMORPG.

 

P.S. I am really a nice guy, sorry if I come accross as an ass that wasnt my intent. But I think its a legitimate problem that needs a genuine solotion.

  Poison_Adele

Novice Member

Joined: 9/01/08
Posts: 293

7/07/12 1:55:16 PM#14

I think some people have it wrong here, namely the guy who posted right after OP.

OP, you are definitely right that these days, a lot of devs design an essentially single player game and slap MMO mechanics on it for no apparent reason. Case in point, TSW: being massively multiplayer brings nothing to an otherwise awesome game.

But unlike poster #2, I don't feel at ALL that it means "games should never be playable solo". That just isn't fun. A game should encourage you to work together, but forcing you can lead to boredom.

That being real said, the real problem is just that devs are slapping level grinds, raids, etc, on games that would be better off without them.

  Squal'Zell

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 1809

"Next time i log in SWG ill probably see elves and druids"

7/07/12 1:59:04 PM#15
Originally posted by maplestone

You stop it by going to the group play vs solo play thread and ranting there.

Ok, that's a little harsh.

In my opinion, you make games more interactive by improving the signal-to-noise ratio of interaction.   It takes only a tiny amount of spam, scam, trolling and abuse to make people who are not extreme extraverts completely tune out a communication channel.  If you want people to feel comfortable chatting with strangers, you have to make sure they feel there is more to be gained than lost by saying hello.

It's an emotional calculation, not an economic one.  Forcing people to be dependant only works if the joys outweigh the frustrations.  It may seem like you're increasing interaction, but there's a strong danger that you're doing it by just shrinking your playerbase to a niche of like-minded people.

that is also a great point

when yo usay "hello" in local chat and the answer comes back "NOOB, F*CK YOU" "GAAAAAYYY" and other messages along those lines its simply a matter of seconds that i disable local chat and only keep IMs/group/guild chat open. so the interactions just goes down signifficantly.


  Squal'Zell

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 1809

"Next time i log in SWG ill probably see elves and druids"

7/07/12 2:01:31 PM#16
Originally posted by Poison_Adele

I think some people have it wrong here, namely the guy who posted right after OP.

OP, you are definitely right that these days, a lot of devs design an essentially single player game and slap MMO mechanics on it for no apparent reason. Case in point, TSW: being massively multiplayer brings nothing to an otherwise awesome game.

But unlike poster #2, I don't feel at ALL that it means "games should never be playable solo". That just isn't fun. A game should encourage you to work together, but forcing you can lead to boredom.

That being real said, the real problem is just that devs are slapping level grinds, raids, etc, on games that would be better off without them.

read it again, i didnt say never. in fact i said "Solo play should be available, but should be super hard mode" 

but please explain to me how can forced interaction lead to boredom?


  dave6660

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

7/07/12 2:10:58 PM#17

As much as I don't like it we're not going to stop it.  That play style is very popular.

The only hope is the mmorpg genre losses its mainstream appeal and implodes.  Then maybe it will go back to what it was when it started with it's target audience being computer aficionados and Dungeons and Dragons players.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  User Deleted
7/07/12 2:12:26 PM#18

I'll go out on a limb here with a theory.

 

1. Massively Multiplayer = large world cooperation, competition and interaction in shared world environment.

2. Normal Multiplayer = small world (for example instance bubble) cooperation, competition and interaction in a private environment.

3. Single Player = minimal or no interaction focused on solo play.  Obviously PVE because you can't PVP by yourself.

 

Those are the three game styles.

 

Here is the trend...

Old MMORPGs = much 1 + some 2 +  some 3

New MMORPGs = much 2 + much 3

 

The trend is driven by mass appeal of single player and small multiplayer gameplay.

 

Games ditch "massively multiplayer" content in an attempt to get more players by catering to players who wouldn't typically play an MMORPG.

 

Look at WoW's design for example.  Most of the gameplay is normal multiplayer (raids, dungeons, BGs, arenas) and single player (solo questing, solo dungeons, solo farming, solo crafting).

 

In fact, I challenge anyone to name anything in WoW that is still massively multiplayer.  Coop questing / grinding?  As far as I can tell, that's pretty much dead.

 

Stop it?  Not a chance.  MMORPG is now a catch-all for any RPG that's online.

 

  CrunkJuice2

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/12
Posts: 584

7/07/12 2:13:48 PM#19

i wouldnt say it plagues modern mmos.just the mmos that attract the spoiled brat,whiney baby instant gratification wow crowd

 

 

  Fangrim

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/12
Posts: 474

7/07/12 2:15:03 PM#20
Originally posted by Squal'Zell
Originally posted by maplestone

You stop it by going to the group play vs solo play thread and ranting there.

Ok, that's a little harsh.

In my opinion, you make games more interactive by improving the signal-to-noise ratio of interaction.   It takes only a tiny amount of spam, scam, trolling and abuse to make people who are not extreme extraverts completely tune out a communication channel.  If you want people to feel comfortable chatting with strangers, you have to make sure they feel there is more to be gained than lost by saying hello.

It's an emotional calculation, not an economic one.  Forcing people to be dependant only works if the joys outweigh the frustrations.  It may seem like you're increasing interaction, but there's a strong danger that you're doing it by just shrinking your playerbase to a niche of like-minded people.

that is also a great point

when yo usay "hello" in local chat and the answer comes back "NOOB, F*CK YOU" "GAAAAAYYY" and other messages along those lines its simply a matter of seconds that i disable local chat and only keep IMs/group/guild chat open. so the interactions just goes down signifficantly.

 In all my years of MMO gaming I have  never seen any of these things said to someone who says 'hello'.What games did you play where this happens ?

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