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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » How we knew TOR would fail.

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217 posts found
  dead2soon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/11
Posts: 152

7/06/12 1:34:12 PM#141
Originally posted by hikaru77

A few months laters, they already have superservers, great performance (200+ players on 1 single zone without lag or bad FPS), a LFG tool, etc. And they still have 2 or 3 more Content updates and a level expansion by the end of year. But lets just keep talking about how swtor is a fail, even when is still the most populated p2p MMO but WoW.  

I call shenanigans.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/06/12 1:37:24 PM#142
Leave us in peace, disgruntled SWG veteran.

I hope that some day, some how, this becomes an unprofitable topic to troll with.

But not any time soon.  Hell, we've still got some Original WoW Haters from circa 2004 clinging feebly to life.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  7/06/12 2:02:57 PM#143


Originally posted by Jessina

Originally posted by Slayra You managed to use the "word" -WoW- 16 times in two short paragraphs. GG.
Your limits of understanding a discussion seems so lacking that you had to come up with a way to troll and TRY to make yourself look good on the internet? "GG".

 

OP: I agree 100%. Glad GW2 is coming soon. :)


Thank you. I hope GW2 fills the explore void and keeps me entertained until a proper sandbox comes out and fills the SWG sized hole in my heart.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  cippalippa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/11
Posts: 111

7/06/12 2:06:15 PM#144

don't need to write much, i played one beta, that was enough to know what would happen.

Thx for any fanboi who had fan of me or any people for saying the thruth, that the game was pure crap, and as i said back then you can keep your game and play it all time long as long as you are satisfied and you don't dare bother me again.

 

live and let die ftw!

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1286

7/06/12 2:08:15 PM#145

Seems to be a lot of denial!

1.3M subs? Well EA announced 1.3M "somethings" - I never saw a definition of what an "account" was - probably because the number was after the start of the "30 days free" period.

How would 1.3M be a failure: easy - if EA do not recover their investment.

No problem EA making a profit over the life of the game? Well EA have said they need 500k to break even and 1M subs to make a profit but nothing to write home about. And that is paying subscrib ers - so excluding free 30 days etc. - for some decent period of time - assumed to be 1 to 2 years depending on actuals subs, sales, advertising, free 30 days etc. So looking bleak at the moment.

Better than SWG. Peak subscribers yes. Total number of paid subs over time - probably not if things contu=inue.

Known failure pre-launch? I didn't see it as having the multi-player "content". And based on the business model i.e. monthly sub didnt see it making it. If it had been a B2P - sold essentially as a single player game with paid for DLC and (maybe) a small annual charge for the multi-player aspect, $10-15 for 6 months perhaps with the first 6 months included then I believe it would have been more sucessful.

  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

7/06/12 5:39:41 PM#146
Originally posted by SuprGamerX

 Heh , when EA is a part of something , you can be sure as hell that it will crumble. :)

QFT....

Could not have put it better myself.

And I knew it would fail from the first talks with the developers, they had NO Clue about anything.. And they talked like they were making WoW in space.. What a bunch of morons...

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/06/12 7:56:26 PM#147
Originally posted by SumterSide
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by SumterSide
 

"There is no other MMO out there that tops it in subs other than WoW"

Do you live under a fucking rock?

Do you live on the planet earth?

http://beta.xfire.com/games

Aion may be close, but not yet. There are no other mmo's between WoW and SWToR. They lost half their subs to put them in the number two slot, slipping from their number 2 slot.

SWToR still has 3 times the number of subs of most games. Get used to it. The garbage won't be taken out for awhile.

Wow, you're using xfire to site subscription numbers.

Xfire is only good for siting trends.

 

Aion has more players than SWTOR

Maple Story has more players than SWTOR

Star Wars: The Clone Wars has more players than SWTOR

 

Oh, but I get it, you only mean WESTERN P2P MMOs. I love that. There is a magnitude of MMOs with more players than SWTOR, so in response you say "No, no, no, no. What I mean is Wester MMOs with a subscriptions fee and blah blah blah" 

Yeah, I get it, you set up the conditions for which we can place SWTORs success.

Well, I hate to tell you this, but being  second place in a market with only 3 prominent western P2P MMOs left isn't something to be proud of. It's like running a 1 man race and being proud that you came in first.

Ok I'll use xfire to site subscription numbers. You go ahead and keep pulling them out of your ass. Xfire may not be proof - but it is a little more substantial than your 'nothing'.

So tell me. How many subscribers does SWToR have, and please site your source which is more definitive then the one I provided.

And to further, mr. pot calling the kettle black. I'm sorry you don't approve of the conditions I set up for SWToR's success. Please can you again refer to your own credentials in determining those conditions? I mean that is your argument right, I'm not allowed to set the perameters of success, but you are somehow....

Talk about full of yourself.

You lambast me for talking about ToR's position in western p2p mmo's.....I'm sorry I didn't realize the parameters you set didn't include comparing like products. You want to compare it to Maplestory for God's sake.

What mmo are you playing, btw? Does it have more subs than ToR? How about Maplestory? I think it'd be pretty funny if by your own logic, your game is a complete failure compared to Maplestory. I mean, we are going by the parameters you have established for success right?

Well, at the end of the day, I suppose your parameters for success would indicate the best mmo's are WoW, Asian grinders and browser games.

You excited about Panderia then?

 

--------------------------------------

Oh and btw, before you jump to the conclusion about me being some fanboi of SWToR. Please re-read my post. It is garbage.

I'm just realistic enough to know that any mmo with more than 250,000 subscribers is a contender and isn't going anywhere for a long time. Whether I like it or not.

Hey, but the population may continue to decline to VG lvls  -  I'm flexible enough to change my mind as evidence presents itself - but right now they still have a sub base that games targeting the same audience would be extatic to have. And I'm sorry if my parameters of 'games targeting the same audience' is too liberal and crazy for you, if you want I can do an analysis using Farmville for the measure of success.

  User Deleted
7/06/12 8:29:04 PM#148

Were it failed before it even started was BW devs listening to kotor fans who spent a great deal of time telling people who had a interest in the game to.."GTFO this is not WOW!" "GTFO this is not SWG2!" they ruled the early beta forums and slammed and flamed long time MMO veterans who came from many games curios about SW:TOR.

Thats is why the game is mainy kotor 3 online.

 

The real fail was allowing these kotor fans who hated Wow and SWG to rule those early days when devs needed input from all types of people who had experience in many MMORPG's. indeed we had many intelligent people who have been around since the first online games ever offer advice for long term retainment of people interested in TOR. but again those forums had people waiting to pound any thread to dust and get it locked so devs would not consider or see see the idea.

After release the features they thought the majority of the fans could care less about happened to be the very features that the general player of a themepark had hoped would be in at launch.

Throughout development those forums and the vile people who ruled them help shape the 4th pillar and these are the same people who over hyped the game in these forums and attacked anyone on other forums when it came to swtor.

So you can say it was BW devs and it is. but if the guys had had a larger portion of people from other MMO suggest and point out early pitfall's in the design they had. we would have a much better swtor right now.

So now they stop listening to kotor fans a little and are trying to play catch up with the design they should have made at launch or early beta.

But they still have no idea what that is because the feedback they get is still mainly those hardcore leftover kotor fans who still hate WOW/SWG and other MMO's

I think the devs there have no idea what the average MMO player want. at this point they have given up trying to. they're just wingin it now and doing a bad jab implementing those features.

 

 

 

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/06/12 8:47:04 PM#149
Originally posted by jeremyjodes

Were it failed before it even started was BW devs listening to kotor fans who spent a great deal of time telling people who had a interest in the game to.."GTFO this is not WOW!" "GTFO this is not SWG2!" they ruled the early beta forums and slammed and flamed long time MMO veterans who came from many games curios about SW:TOR.

Thats is why the game is mainy kotor 3 online.

 

You realize that a game is essentially made before they even create a public website for KOTOR fans to do any influencing right?

By the time beta rolls around, the world is already constructed. Even if 100% of the public tells them to make a more pervasive world, that's impossible, the world is made and the money is spent.

By the time the public is giving any input - it is too late to completely remake the quest structure. The tools they are using and have bought and paid for creates kill x number of rats, that's what they have to work with. I mean that has to be obvious right? There really is absolutely no variation from quest to quest in this game. They just drop different mobs into the same slots in a different zone. Pretty obvious they weren't 'handcrafting' these quests. Which means they were using a toolset. So any suggestions about improving questing would have to fit into the same formula their toolset provides. (**I am fully aware that I may have exposed my lack of mmo programming knowledge with this theory, so please, I won't be offended if someone corrects me**).

The stories have already been written by the time we get to say anything about it. The classes have already been defined.

It is a logistical impossibility to start from scratch due to public input, which is essentially what they would have done.

Know this, from now until the end of time. Once a game is announced to the public, they already know what the game will be. Watch and learn. You will never see any mmo with a signifcant major structural change between beta and release. But with 100% of every mmo that will ever be released, you will see posts that claim, 'devs never listen to the players'. And really, it is that you have your timing all wrong. Your structural input is useless at that stage. They want you to tell them 'the quest text is messed up here' or 'i always crash when I zone into suchandsuch'. And to that, they are listening.

The only thing Devs can do, once we the public know about the game, is move sliders back and forth to tweek progression curves and rates. They can fix bugs. They can tweek performance. They can't make different classes. They can't change the world. They can't change quest construction. They can't make the game we wanted, only sell us the game they have.

 

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

 
OP  7/06/12 8:58:19 PM#150


Originally posted by Icewhite

Leave us in peace, disgruntled SWG veteran.
I hope that some day, some how, this becomes an unprofitable topic to troll with.

But not any time soon.  Hell, we've still got some Original WoW Haters from circa 2004 clinging feebly to life.



NEVA!!!!!


Give Up! Not until a proper sb comes out, a aaa funded one, and finally proves us right!

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  bverji

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/26/04
Posts: 728

7/06/12 8:59:58 PM#151

SWG had nothing to do with the success or failuer of Old Republic.  The subs or lack of subs for SWG was due to the poor quality of the game and the heavy handed approach of the sony devs. The interest in a "good" Star Wars" MMO was high and sold millions of copys both for SWG and Old Republic. The failure has been to delivere in quality for both games, but certainly has nothing to do with the level of interest in a Star Wars MMO and the idea that somehow the sub numbers from SWG relates to the success of another Star wars MMO is lacking in any inkling of the ability to think critically. You want to look at the potential of for success of a Star wars MMO look at the box sales.

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

7/06/12 9:37:24 PM#152
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by jeremyjodes

Were it failed before it even started was BW devs listening to kotor fans who spent a great deal of time telling people who had a interest in the game to.."GTFO this is not WOW!" "GTFO this is not SWG2!" they ruled the early beta forums and slammed and flamed long time MMO veterans who came from many games curios about SW:TOR.

Thats is why the game is mainy kotor 3 online.

 

You realize that a game is essentially made before they even create a public website for KOTOR fans to do any influencing right?

By the time beta rolls around, the world is already constructed. Even if 100% of the public tells them to make a more pervasive world, that's impossible, the world is made and the money is spent.

By the time the public is giving any input - it is too late to completely remake the quest structure. The tools they are using and have bought and paid for creates kill x number of rats, that's what they have to work with. I mean that has to be obvious right? There really is absolutely no variation from quest to quest in this game. They just drop different mobs into the same slots in a different zone. Pretty obvious they weren't 'handcrafting' these quests. Which means they were using a toolset. So any suggestions about improving questing would have to fit into the same formula their toolset provides. (**I am fully aware that I may have exposed my lack of mmo programming knowledge with this theory, so please, I won't be offended if someone corrects me**).

The stories have already been written by the time we get to say anything about it. The classes have already been defined.

It is a logistical impossibility to start from scratch due to public input, which is essentially what they would have done.

Know this, from now until the end of time. Once a game is announced to the public, they already know what the game will be. Watch and learn. You will never see any mmo with a signifcant major structural change between beta and release. But with 100% of every mmo that will ever be released, you will see posts that claim, 'devs never listen to the players'. And really, it is that you have your timing all wrong. Your structural input is useless at that stage. They want you to tell them 'the quest text is messed up here' or 'i always crash when I zone into suchandsuch'. And to that, they are listening.

The only thing Devs can do, once we the public know about the game, is move sliders back and forth to tweek progression curves and rates. They can fix bugs. They can tweek performance. They can't make different classes. They can't change the world. They can't change quest construction. They can't make the game we wanted, only sell us the game they have.

 

This. The devs aren't going to say "Well, this group of people on the forums want a sandbox so I guess we need to go back to the drawing board and throw aways the reasons why we took this approach in the first place along with the years we spent getting it to this point."  Get real people.

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  Bardus

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/12
Posts: 475

7/06/12 10:21:16 PM#153
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by jeremyjodes

Were it failed before it even started was BW devs listening to kotor fans who spent a great deal of time telling people who had a interest in the game to.."GTFO this is not WOW!" "GTFO this is not SWG2!" they ruled the early beta forums and slammed and flamed long time MMO veterans who came from many games curios about SW:TOR.

Thats is why the game is mainy kotor 3 online.

 

You realize that a game is essentially made before they even create a public website for KOTOR fans to do any influencing right?

By the time beta rolls around, the world is already constructed. Even if 100% of the public tells them to make a more pervasive world, that's impossible, the world is made and the money is spent.

By the time the public is giving any input - it is too late to completely remake the quest structure. The tools they are using and have bought and paid for creates kill x number of rats, that's what they have to work with. I mean that has to be obvious right? There really is absolutely no variation from quest to quest in this game. They just drop different mobs into the same slots in a different zone. Pretty obvious they weren't 'handcrafting' these quests. Which means they were using a toolset. So any suggestions about improving questing would have to fit into the same formula their toolset provides. (**I am fully aware that I may have exposed my lack of mmo programming knowledge with this theory, so please, I won't be offended if someone corrects me**).

The stories have already been written by the time we get to say anything about it. The classes have already been defined.

It is a logistical impossibility to start from scratch due to public input, which is essentially what they would have done.

Know this, from now until the end of time. Once a game is announced to the public, they already know what the game will be. Watch and learn. You will never see any mmo with a signifcant major structural change between beta and release. But with 100% of every mmo that will ever be released, you will see posts that claim, 'devs never listen to the players'. And really, it is that you have your timing all wrong. Your structural input is useless at that stage. They want you to tell them 'the quest text is messed up here' or 'i always crash when I zone into suchandsuch'. And to that, they are listening.

The only thing Devs can do, once we the public know about the game, is move sliders back and forth to tweek progression curves and rates. They can fix bugs. They can tweek performance. They can't make different classes. They can't change the world. They can't change quest construction. They can't make the game we wanted, only sell us the game they have.

 

This. The devs aren't going to say "Well, this group of people on the forums want a sandbox so I guess we need to go back to the drawing board and throw aways the reasons why we took this approach in the first place along with the years we spent getting it to this point."  Get real people.

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/07/12 12:00:26 AM#154
Originally posted by Bardus
 

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

You missed my point.

You can pray all you want for the sky to be green - it's still going to be blue tomorrow.

 

  Bardus

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/12
Posts: 475

7/07/12 12:12:26 AM#155

...oops post... carry on, nothing to see here.

  superniceguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2277

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

7/07/12 7:32:17 AM#156
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Bardus
 

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

You missed my point.

You can pray all you want for the sky to be green - it's still going to be blue tomorrow.

 

I wish that was the case with SWG. It changed colours twice! It went from sandbox to theme park / sandbox

MMOs - They can change.  The sky does not

SWTOR is going to have to change else it will get shut down.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/07/12 10:24:16 AM#157
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Bardus
 

Yeah that would be a crazy thing to do, especially since the design they did take is working out so well for them and all, and players are not begging for individualism, customization, player economy, customizable housing or ships, something anything to do at all besides day after day exact same dailies, and the list goes on about sandboxy features that those damn vocal minorities wont shut up about.

/sarcasm off

Don't believe me? Go into the official forum where only subscribers can post and I bet you will find post after post asking for sandboxy features. Better hurry though, those post do get locked rather quickly but at least there are enough beggars to keep the mods busy locking threads.

You missed my point.

You can pray all you want for the sky to be green - it's still going to be blue tomorrow.

 

I wish that was the case with SWG. It changed colours twice! It went from sandbox to theme park / sandbox

MMOs - They can change.  The sky does not

SWTOR is going to have to change else it will get shut down.

Because the construction of the SWG world allowed it.

You cannot turn SWToR into a sandbox. To make it a pervasive more seemless world would take a re-building from the bottom up. At best they could give it sandbox features - but to me that would be pointless in the instanced, compartmentalized world they constructed.

They can make changes to SWToR, but they can only attempt to make the best lobby/themepark mmo - or start from scratch to make the game you guys want.

And really, if VG can still be alive with its abysmal numbers, you really think half a million subs is cause for a shutdown?

 

  rammur65

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 55

7/07/12 10:31:45 AM#158

This is the reason i hate this site now days sooo many haters and freakin doomsayin tards dating all the way back to 2002ish when this site was put up everyone just complains on how every single game sucks ToR has not failed  well i guess it fails because it doesnt have the huge player base wow has blah whatever you dont need 15 million subs to be a good game 1 the game hasnt even been out a year it hasnt even hit the content prodiction stage yet helll the wheels havnt really begun to spin it may not be the greatest game out there but it is a game to keep an eye on. Now lotro believe it or not is making a pretty damn good come back the f2p model gotta be one of the best ive seen in the f2p market cant really bitch about a game that is free hell you can earn tokens in the game even. other than that people sayin game suck and blah blah i think its time for you guys to find a new hobbie and stop polluting the freakin forums with so much hate its not politics either like the game or gtho simplee.

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

7/07/12 10:51:02 AM#159

Top 2 reasons for the bleeding subs in TOR are: the gear grind based pvp system (and the broken balance along with that), and the game not turning out what people hoped it to be (it's not even a decent "KOTOR online" type game). The third reason was lack of players on the servers many players were on but now that there's been merges, that reason has disappeared.


The tier based gear grind is so retarded, it isn't even funny and not that fun at all honestly, I've played many MMO games since the 90's and this is one of the worst (along with WoW) types of system for pvp.


  3-4thElf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 495

7/07/12 10:54:04 AM#160
Originally posted by sookster54

The tier based gear grind is so retarded, it isn't even funny and not that fun at all honestly, I've played many MMO games since the 90's and this is one of the worst (along with WoW) types of system for pvp.

I agree with this. I mean back in like 2008 there was a time when I was happy to see a new tier of gear coming along in the various sorts of games and would prepare to snag them. But then I got done with it. I've tried to accept the whole "that's just what MMOs are" excuse developers try to use, but honestly it's all very been there-done that and I'm sick of it.

TOR just following that model just didn't feel fresh enough to even bother trying.

a yo ho ho

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