Originally posted by VagabondLife

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 See this post:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5111649

In other words you agree that there is no advantage OVER others. Just a personal "bonus" for the one who uses the CS, that's not Pay 2 Win because you are not winning anything. Unless you consider winning getting to 80 first, or getting the best crafted gear first. Well I don't, I consider P2W an unfair advantage someone might get OVER ME by using a CS. If his usage of the CS affects himself only (as it is in GW2) there is no "winning" here

 Definitely no advantage in sPvP.

WvW...possible, not sure.  It all depends on how much of a difference purchased things can make, and how much blueprints wind up costing.

PvE...you can definitely get an advantage.

I dunno, in the end, I see buying gold for real money as a form of legitimized cheating, and I think having to pay money for what is tradtionally accomplished with a cheat code is beyond stupid.

What advantage in PvE?

 

I am curious too, what advantage?

 Uhhh???  You can buy better equipment?  Isn't this an advantage?

I mean...if you don't consider anything on the AH to confer an advantage, then I just don't know what to say.

But since gear/weapons are level rated you would only have an advantage if you reached that level ahead of someone else.........a very trivial advantage at best.

... and I can MAKE gear that beats anything you might get from Gems... LOL 

Originally posted by sgel

heh this attrioke dude must be under the spell of the TERA PR deprtment.

There is absolutely no other possiblity (without delving into personal insults) that his person has such faulty logic.

 

Lol i had forgotten my profile was still with that TERA thing.   FIXED.  TERA now sells pay to win item called chronoscroll, or if you prefer, a purchasable item through wish you can have an advantage over other people.  Left as soon as that was announced.

Originally posted by seridan
 

This is hillarious to see all of the differant excuses people have used to justify the cash shop.

If i purchase a million dollars worth of gold with real money but dont spend it, hows that P2W? LMAO!!!

Originally posted by MercAngel

GW2 is not P2W i did a test last BEW to see how much the XP boost did for you so with char 1 i did all the heart and skill quest and any DE's i came by makeing a note of witch ones i did up to the Assault on Svanir's Dome at the end my char was lvl 18 about 3/4 of the way to lvl 19.

 

Char 2 useing XP boost i did the same things as char 1 makeing sure to only do the DE'S the char 1 did all the way to Assault on Svanir's Dome that char was lvl 19 and the end of the event.

 

so a player getting 1/4 more exp in more or less the same amout of play time and may get to max lvl 1-2 days before i do = P2W    NOT!!!!!

 

P2W = you can not beat highend content with out useing items from cash shop.

it works something like this. say you can not do dungeons with out upgraded rare armor and weapons now rare armor and weapons are hard to find and it may take time and gold to get them all as some players may sell them for a high price you can also get all the rest of the stuff you need to upgrade with but there is one thing your upgrade may fail and destory the item you are trying to upgrade but there is this cash shop item that keeps the item from getting destoryed if the upgrade fails note this item does not drop in game and has a 1 time use so the only way to get this item is from cash shop or other players that got it from the cash shop for a ton of gold.

 

as there are no items in GW2 cash shop that are neede to play them game, beat highend content , or do dungeons  it is not P2W

 

P2W = you can not beat highend content with out useing items from cash shop."

Sorry to disturb your definition.  Its just so daunting to use 'have an advantage over others through cash'. So i just use P2W at face value.  I wonder what definition came first,

(1) P2W = you can not beat highend content with out useing items from cash shop."

or 

(2)P2W = have an advantage over others through cash

*shrug*

Think its important to have the second definition because many of us dont play certain (2)P2W and by extension (1)P2W.

I don't know if the game is Pay 2 Win or not, but why do people complaint about it, you have the same option that everybody else have, to earn money and to spend it on whatever you think its pay 2 win, if you choose not to spend the money cause in your opinion is not worth it, well thats your problem, but don't complaint about it.

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Master10K

I can link to.

This is golden.

LOL enough said

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 See this post:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5111649

In other words you agree that there is no advantage OVER others. Just a personal "bonus" for the one who uses the CS, that's not Pay 2 Win because you are not winning anything. Unless you consider winning getting to 80 first, or getting the best crafted gear first. Well I don't, I consider P2W an unfair advantage someone might get OVER ME by using a CS. If his usage of the CS affects himself only (as it is in GW2) there is no "winning" here

 Definitely no advantage in sPvP.

WvW...possible, not sure.  It all depends on how much of a difference purchased things can make, and how much blueprints wind up costing.

PvE...you can definitely get an advantage.

I dunno, in the end, I see buying gold for real money as a form of legitimized cheating, and I think having to pay money for what is tradtionally accomplished with a cheat code is beyond stupid.

What advantage in PvE?

 

I am curious too, what advantage?

 Uhhh???  You can buy better equipment?  Isn't this an advantage?

I mean...if you don't consider anything on the AH to confer an advantage, then I just don't know what to say.

Max level equipment is max level equipment - everyone can craft or buy from vendors with either karma or gold max  equipment.

There is no better equipment and it is trivial to get.

What people will go after is rare skins they find good looking.

I think the point is you can by better than what you have. 

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

snip

 Uhhh???  You can buy better equipment?  Isn't this an advantage?

I mean...if you don't consider anything on the AH to confer an advantage, then I just don't know what to say.

Max level equipment is max level equipment - everyone can craft or buy from vendors with either karma or gold max  equipment.

There is no better equipment and it is trivial to get.

What people will go after is rare skins they find good looking.

I think the point is you can by better than what you have. 

I think the point related to the topic of this thread is that buying that gear will not effect OTHER players experience....thus it is not pay to win.

Ok, can we end discussion here? We all agree that GW2 is clearly P2W. Don't. Buy. Game. At all. It's pay to win. Let us who bought game to enj... suffer from P2W.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 See this post:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5111649

In other words you agree that there is no advantage OVER others. Just a personal "bonus" for the one who uses the CS, that's not Pay 2 Win because you are not winning anything. Unless you consider winning getting to 80 first, or getting the best crafted gear first. Well I don't, I consider P2W an unfair advantage someone might get OVER ME by using a CS. If his usage of the CS affects himself only (as it is in GW2) there is no "winning" here

 Definitely no advantage in sPvP.

WvW...possible, not sure.  It all depends on how much of a difference purchased things can make, and how much blueprints wind up costing.

PvE...you can definitely get an advantage.

I dunno, in the end, I see buying gold for real money as a form of legitimized cheating, and I think having to pay money for what is tradtionally accomplished with a cheat code is beyond stupid.

What advantage in PvE?

 

I am curious too, what advantage?

 Uhhh???  You can buy better equipment?  Isn't this an advantage?

I mean...if you don't consider anything on the AH to confer an advantage, then I just don't know what to say.

Max level equipment is max level equipment - everyone can craft or buy from vendors with either karma or gold max  equipment.

There is no better equipment and it is trivial to get.

What people will go after is rare skins they find good looking.

I think the point is you can by better than what you have. 

I can't get better than lvl 80 gear.

All the lvl 80 armors and weapons offer the same defense and damage.

So wherever I'm, that other guy over there that buy gold with real money, and his the same level than me, he is doing the same damage.

Not that it would be important since we aren't competing vs each other - we are in the same team, we aren't competing for mobs, drops, unique achievements or gear, spots in raids, etc.

And now I have to look what happened when he bought gold with gems -> other people got gems so that they can acquire services and other shop items without paying a cent.

That is why most people aren't bothered with the shop:

- it sells time savers, not power; (In fact you are paying to lose game time, go figure, especially cause there is nothing at the end of the leveling);

- when people trade gems for gold, people that don't want to spend real money can acquire things from the shop for free.

Actual players are exchanging different currencies, one exchanged money for in game items; other exchange in game items for in game money; other exchanged in game money for real money that can only be used in Anet CS.

Yes it is P2W you pay $60 one time and then you win full access for the life of game!

For WvW it's a mild form of P2W.

If 2 people play the same amount of time, someone who spends cash can:

- level slightly faster

- spend much more gold on siege engines and keep upgrade

So, technically it's P2W, but i hope that it's not game breaking.

Personally, i would like to see an extra currency only for siege engines and keep upgrades. And the xp boost should get removed entirely.

Originally posted by aionix

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

snip

 Uhhh???  You can buy better equipment?  Isn't this an advantage?

I mean...if you don't consider anything on the AH to confer an advantage, then I just don't know what to say.

Max level equipment is max level equipment - everyone can craft or buy from vendors with either karma or gold max  equipment.

There is no better equipment and it is trivial to get.

What people will go after is rare skins they find good looking.

I think the point is you can by better than what you have. 

I think the point related to the topic of this thread is that buying that gear will not effect OTHER players experience....thus it is not pay to win.

I know it's difficult to discern the different viewpoints in this thread, but I never argued that GW2 was P2W, simply because the definition of P2W is so nebulous.

My only argument is that you can spend real money to get an advantage in GW2, with advantage being defined as anything that gives you some kind of quantifiable power in any part of the game.

All I'm saying is that people arguing that the GW2 cash shop is completely innocuous and will have no effect on the game whatsoever are just as off-base as people arguing that the game is flat out pay to win.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Creslin321

 See this post:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5111649

In other words you agree that there is no advantage OVER others. Just a personal "bonus" for the one who uses the CS, that's not Pay 2 Win because you are not winning anything. Unless you consider winning getting to 80 first, or getting the best crafted gear first. Well I don't, I consider P2W an unfair advantage someone might get OVER ME by using a CS. If his usage of the CS affects himself only (as it is in GW2) there is no "winning" here

 Definitely no advantage in sPvP.

WvW...possible, not sure.  It all depends on how much of a difference purchased things can make, and how much blueprints wind up costing.

PvE...you can definitely get an advantage.

I dunno, in the end, I see buying gold for real money as a form of legitimized cheating, and I think having to pay money for what is tradtionally accomplished with a cheat code is beyond stupid.

What advantage in PvE?

 

I am curious too, what advantage?

 Uhhh???  You can buy better equipment?  Isn't this an advantage?

I mean...if you don't consider anything on the AH to confer an advantage, then I just don't know what to say.

Max level equipment is max level equipment - everyone can craft or buy from vendors with either karma or gold max  equipment.

There is no better equipment and it is trivial to get.

What people will go after is rare skins they find good looking.

I think the point is you can by better than what you have. 

I can't get better than lvl 80 gear.

All the lvl 80 armors and weapons offer the same defense and damage.

So wherever I'm, that other guy over there that buy gold with real money, and his the same level than me, he is doing the same damage.

Not that it would be important since we aren't competing vs each other - we are in the same team, we aren't competing for mobs, drops, unique achievements or gear, spots in raids, etc.

And now I have to look what happened when he bought gold with gems -> other people got gems so that they can acquire services and other shop items without paying a cent.

That is why most people aren't bothered with the shop:

- it sells time savers, not power; (In fact you are paying to lose game time, go figure, especially cause there is nothing at the end of the leveling);

- when people trade gems for gold, people that don't want to spend real money can acquire things from the shop for free.

Actual players are exchanging different currencies, one exchanged money for in game items; other exchange in game items for in game money; other exchanged in game money for real money that can only be used in Anet CS.

Bingo.  Which is why I remain opposed to the cash shop.  I just don't like the idea of having people pay money to skip playing your game.  It seems like it takes advantage of erm...less enlightened consumers.

I mean, I never thought a businessman would be able to say the following and be successful at it:

"Hey guys, here is my new game.  It costs $60 initially, but the best part about it is that if you get it and find that you don't like part of it, then you can just pay extra money to skip that part!"

Originally posted by aionix

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Creslin321

snip

 Uhhh???  You can buy better equipment?  Isn't this an advantage?

I mean...if you don't consider anything on the AH to confer an advantage, then I just don't know what to say.

Max level equipment is max level equipment - everyone can craft or buy from vendors with either karma or gold max  equipment.

There is no better equipment and it is trivial to get.

What people will go after is rare skins they find good looking.

I think the point is you can by better than what you have. 

I think the point related to the topic of this thread is that buying that gear will not effect OTHER players experience....thus it is not pay to win.

Nothing is pay to win then? 

I know it is hard for some people to understand this point - in WvW you could be lvl 1 and you have lvl 80 armor and lvl 80 - period - you still have to unlock skills, etc but you are lvl 80. In GW1, I bet some people I could beat builds they put together using 3 skills (none elites either). I did it with my necro and mesmer -I knew my skills and synergies of them. It was not hard.

You can use all the RL cash you want and I think I could still beat many who think it is P2W w/o outlaying any RL cash. HOW? My understanding of the skills on my bar and how to use them.

If you don't understand that about GW2 - please don't play - you will just embarass yourself when a player like me defeats you.

Because people forgot plain english.... there aren't LOTS of definitions for P2W

Let's see what "win" is:

The only part that someone on this thread my "confuse" as Pay 2 Win is 5 "To obtain something that is wanted", but... "wanted" by WHO?

Now let's see what "advantage" is:

Noun

advantage (plural advantages)

1. Any condition, circumstance, opportunity or means, particularly favorable to success, or to any desired end.
2. Superiority; mastery; — used with of to specify its nature or with over to specify the other party.

   The enemy had the advantage of a more elevated position.

3. Superiority of state, or that which gives it; benefit; gain; profit; as, the advantage of a good constitution.
4. (tennis) The score where one player wins a point after deuce but needs the next too to carry the game.

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

i just find hilarious how a game can be P2W before reach max lvl and than after reach max lvl sudenly is no longer P2W. must be a new kind of P2W definition.  

for some guys all games must be P2W since i can pay a friend to play extra hours for me ...... 

 

I doubt that paying a friend to play extra hours for you is a sanctioned "Pay To Win" method. From my experience games tend to have strict rules against RMT outside of those allowed by the company themselves. 

if  for some guys reach fast max lvl is P2W than pay a friend to play for you so can reach max lvl fast is P2W too and that is absurd. 

let amke the silly player A vs player B comparison:

player A and player B have only 2 hours to play for day. player A have money available to pay player C to play 2 hours day with is account. player B cant spend money with player C so player A will reach max lvl soon than player B.

for some this is P2W...sorry but this is just stupid

The problematic arises from whether or not we imply "Legit P2W" when we say "P2W". I've always thought it was implied, much like we at least refer to "videogames" when we say "games". Some even always refer to "MMORP Games" when they say "games" in this forum.

Assuming that the "P2W" includes "illegal P2W", why would your scenario be stupid?