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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Is it me or GW2 PAY 2 WIN game?

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481 posts found
  Atriokke

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/09
Posts: 13

7/05/12 3:45:05 PM#201

People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, but\if your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

 

May the richest person win!!

  Kyelthis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 285

7/05/12 3:50:16 PM#202
Originally posted by Atriokke

People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, but\if your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

 

Your example is correct, but that doesn't describe "P2W", that just describes a means of gaining an advantage by leveling slightly faster. P2W by definition is the use of a cash shop to actually "win" at a game, most of the time it's almost needed to compete, this game doesn't fit that at all.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3652

7/05/12 3:50:18 PM#203
Originally posted by Atriokke

People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, but\if your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.  ... and so do subscription games.  See my previous example.  In fact, my 'person a and person b but person a has more money' example is almost identical to yours. :)

Face it, that's how MMOs work.  They're long term progression games, they want long term money, you buy power with it.  It's just how the genre is.

At least iN GW2, structured PvP is completely disconnected from how much money you spend on the game (Though how much money you spend on your internet connection and computer is still a factor, sadly).

 

 edit:  On a side note, I assume this means you define winning as being somewhat faster in a long term game that actually has a relatively low power cap?  Does that mean once the power cap is reached, it's no longer p2w? 

it's not as clear cut as you make it sound.  Time advantage <> winning in everybody's eyes.

I think pretty much everybody is willing to say that GW2 sells convenience (ie reduced time playing), but a lot of people would argue if that actually makes you WIN.

If you're 20% faster, and it takes you 80 hours rather than 100 hours to hit cap, is that really that much of an advantage?

It's certainly not nearly as much of an advantage as being unemployed. 

I guess you could argue that the idle rich have the biggest advantage, but the unemployed have a bigger advantage than those who are well to do the old fashioned way (ie:  Working hard to get the money, and therefore have less spare time to play).

Perhaps to enforce fairness, we should revive the old FFXIV 'only level so much a day' idea.  An idea whose time has come! :)

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

7/05/12 3:50:30 PM#204
Originally posted by seraphol

But if you love the game, then you're going to feel like it's worth it to toss them a few bones from time to time to make your character prettier or travel in style, since the only other cash they got from you is when they sold you the game.

Ya I like that, it's like donating to support the game and keep it running with updates etc. I'll gladly donate some from time to time once in a while.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

7/05/12 4:00:40 PM#205
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Hurvart

If you are higher level it means you are more powerful. It means you are buying power if you buy xp-potions. Of course the other players will catch up at max level. But it is still very true. If there was no reason to buy xp-potions they would not sell xp-potions. It would not be profitable....

Perhaps it affects my friends if they are trying to level as fast as me. They cant keep up if I use xp-potions.

"Win" is subjective and depends on POV and context. Perhaps it will be P2W for me and my friends. But anyone should be able to agree it is an advantage. Even if it is only temporary.

 This is why all subscription games are P2W.  :(

Given two people who are completely equal in all ways... they level at the same speed, they have enough free time they can play exactly 20 hours each week, they have the same amount of skill...

... the person who only pays their subscription fee half the months will be twice as slow as the person who pays their subscription fee every month.

That's a pretty clear cut case of pay to win, and it's =200%= faster for just 7.50 a month.  :( 


They are Play to Win. Not Pay to Win. If you play more you will be more powerful. I think that is the way a good and fair game should be. To play you must of course also pay the monthly fee. But that is not relevant. You are paying for a service. They must maintain servers and so on.... To play one month everyone will have to pay the same price. Paying more will not help you and will not be possible. That is a level playing field and a fair game.

  Muntz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 279

7/05/12 4:02:55 PM#206
Originally posted by Atriokke

People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, but\if your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

 

If there is power that can be bought it is something another player can NEVER pull even with. I can understand this definition of P2W because the player who paid always has a permant advantage. There are MMOs that offer this and I don't play them. 

However, it does seem to me to be a different animal if the advantage is temporary. If all advantages can be obtained by any player who invests time, why is that P2W? Should it be P2W temporarly? P2WT. What is the profound impact to the game that makes the idea of someone disagreeing with you "ludicrous and incrediblly naive"?  

This advantage has been happening since the first gold farming operations started. So, if you have played an MMO you have experienced it. So, really all MMOs that had any gold farming operation assocated with them were and are P2W by your definition. 

  Kyelthis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 285

7/05/12 4:03:53 PM#207

Here's a post quoted from Aslan132 on these forums and it pretty much should settle this whole silly arguement.

 

"Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them."

  Zoyita

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 119

7/05/12 4:04:14 PM#208

Trust me when they sell some nice fashion im gonna buy it why not to colaborate to the game to become better and better. Someone called me a hater just because i dont agree with his red letters... I like this game i just wish theres no boost of any type in the cash shop thats all, like a cash shop cosmetic only, cosmetic means fashion or styles.

 

And BTW every person have a different vision of what is win the game, like the developer said you can play this game in many different ways.

Zoyita Xfire Miniprofile
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

7/05/12 4:06:02 PM#209
Originally posted by Zoyita

Trust me when they sell some nice fashion im gonna buy it why not to colaborate to the game to become better and better. Someone called me a hater just because i dont agree with his red letters... I like this game i just wish theres no boost of any type in the cash shop thats all, like a cash shop cosmetic only, comsetic means fashion or styles.

Just remember you can get those boosts in game too (not from the CS). So, big deal.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  3-4thElf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 412

7/05/12 4:08:44 PM#210

I'm more sad to see that MMOs are still level restricting their itemization more so than there being a way for people to buy something from a cash shop.

Eh, progress.

a yo ho ho

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

7/05/12 4:11:12 PM#211
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by Atriokke

People are so entirely shortsighted considering P2W.   The idea that power is only obtainable if and only if it is ONLY accessible on cash shop is right out laughable.  Certainly there are varying degrees of P2W, but\if your definition of P2W is being able to take advantage over others with money, then cash shops that sell gold for cash(or its equivalent) in MMOs inevitably fit this definition.

Example:  A starts playing at the same time as B.  They both play the game the same amount of hours.  B has money to spare, A does not.  B proceeds to spend cash for in game gold.  B takes an advantage over A.  Most games fit this description, but their degrees of how much advantage varies game to game.   

The idea that since you can obtain it through gameplay THUS it is not P2W is ludicrous and incredibly naive.   But of course, if your definition is something other than simply taking an advantage to other players through cash then we are at odds regarding the definition. 

 

If there is power that can be bought it is something another player can NEVER pull even with. I can understand this definition of P2W because the player who paid always has a permant advantage. There are MMOs that offer this and I don't play them. 

However, it does seem to me to be a different animal if the advantage is temporary. If all advantages can be obtained by any player who invests time, why is that P2W? Should it be P2W temporarly? P2WT. What is the profound impact to the game that makes the idea of someone disagreeing with you "ludicrous and incrediblly naive"?  

This advantage has been happening since the first gold farming operations started. So, if you have played an MMO you have experienced it. So, really all MMOs that had any gold farming operation assocated with them were and are P2W by your definition. 


Gold farmers and people that buy from them are not legit. They are cheating and can and should be banned from the game.

It is a big difference if the company is selling advantages itself. Advantages that would be considered cheating in fair games.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3652

7/05/12 4:12:47 PM#212
Originally posted by Hurvart


They are Play to Win. Not Pay to Win. If you play more you will be more powerful. I think that is the way a good and fair game should be. To play you must of course also pay the monthly fee. But that is not relevant. You are paying for a service. They must maintain servers and so on.... To play one month everyone will have to pay the same price. Paying more will not help you and will not be possible. That is a level playing field and a fair game.

 It's a 15 dollar fee to buy time, which equals power.

The MMO companies know that, why don't you?

You think they DON'T realize that giving them more money gives you more time to play gives you more power?

You don't have to pay a monthly fee in GW2.  Buying leveling boosts at best gets you about a 20% speed advantage.

Therefore, and watch the math closely here....

Paying 0 in GW2 = leveling normal speed.  Paying lots of money in GW2 = 20% faster leveling speed.

Paying 0 in sub MMO = 0 leveling speed.  Paying 15 dollars a month in sub MMO = normal leveling speed.

So paying money in GW2 can get you an advantage, but it's considerably less than the advantage you can get by paying money in a sub MMO. :T  ... and it's completely not mandatory, unlike a sub MMO where you HAVE to pay 15 dollars.  Talk about an advantage!  Look how crippled you are as an MMO player when your MMO is really just a fancy coaster and a few gigs of useless files on your HD. :)

  3-4thElf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 412

7/05/12 4:13:55 PM#213
Originally posted by Kyelthis

Here's a post quoted from Aslan132 on these forums and it pretty much should settle this whole silly arguement.

 

"Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them."

QFT

I've played a lot of games where people buy gold or items for an advantage, but that's stuff that's attainable to every player.

I remember a game I played some time ago... I don't recall what it was, some Korean grinder that I found really enjoyable to pvp in. One of their cash shop items was a health "keg" that had 1000 uses and it filled you up to 100% health each click. You could assign it to a key and just spam it in pvp battles and pretty much be unstoppable for several minutes.

It sucked to go against, wasn't fun to actually do (I did it), and made for some interesting tactical conversation in pvp battles. Typically each side only had a few people who actually made the purchase and most were F2P players with common drop heals.

Needless to say; that was P2W. You could spend money and temporarily be the baddest dude on the battlefield. Regardless of level, skill, gear, whatever you'd want to place the measurement on.

Using gems to gain cash and spending real cash to do so is not "WIN". 

a yo ho ho

  TwoThreeFour

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2133

7/05/12 4:15:12 PM#214
Originally posted by Kyelthis

Here's a post quoted from Aslan132 on these forums and it pretty much should settle this whole silly arguement.

 

"Thats the big problem there. People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. It has never meant xp potions or time-saving items. And it never will, not even with people on this site trying to force it to. 

People have been buying and selling max level characters and uber-loot drops since the beginning. Name a sub game and i guarantee you can find a toon for sale on eBay. But even that is not Pay2Win. In the end, they skip all the content, but they are still only as powerful as someone who has actually played. 

PAY2WIN is only something that takes you ABOVE what is normally reachable in a game. Artificial stat increases, new areas with better gear/loot, or temporary buffs/invulnerability. If its something that a nonpaying player couldnt do or get, then its pay2win.

PAY2WIN is NOT convenience items that save time, offer better chances to get something thats already obtainable without, skipping content, or appearance/cosmetic items. If you cant be better or reach higher than a nonpaying player, it is not Pay2Win.

So there it is, adjust your definition to that, and i think your gaming experiences will be alot better. There are still plenty of P2W games like anything ever done by PWE or Aeria, but theres also alot more out there that doesnt restrict your gameplay just because you dont pay them."

He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

 

PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

 

A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

 

 

  Atriokke

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/09
Posts: 13

7/05/12 4:23:31 PM#215

 " Does that mean once the power cap is reached, it's no longer p2w? "

Yes, thus my mention of varying degrees of P2W.  

"On a side note, I assume this means you define winning as being somewhat faster in a long term game that actually has a relatively low power cap? "

Yes.  You make faster sound as trivial. This is not always or rarely the case.  

Months of A = Months of B.  But with cash Months of A =/ Months of B.  Thus they are unbalanced in terms of an equal playing field and this is what P2W creates.  End game content is achievable by a small fraction of a game's playerbase(depending on the game of course but in MMOs specifically, imo, that is what it strives to do to keep ppl playing).  Saying that B does NOT have an advantage over A for 5 months because A can get to B in 5 months is silly IMO. Additionally, MMOs evolve through updates(and so does the achievable power) then A will always be playing catch up to B. A will be recurringly at a disadvantage to B.  Does this mean that B does not an advantage over A?  To me the answer is clear, B DOES have an advantage over A in more than one occassion. However i can see because its really transparent that many(or most) do not share my contention.  That is great and all, as you are making a larger market(then what I could achieve through my principle) to feed others so im all for it! =D

 

May the richest person win!!

  Thrashbarg

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/12
Posts: 126

7/05/12 4:24:07 PM#216

Why is this thread even still going? lol

Who cares if someone levels a bit faster in a game with no huge advantage to being max level? People can go ahead and spend a bunch of money to rush through and miss a lot of the content for all I care. Doesn't make sense to me to buy a game then pay more to skip a bunch of it, but hey, I'm weird. I might take a few days longer to hit cap, and have to actually mine nodes and loot mobs to make my mastercraft gears, but I'll see more of the game and have more RL money too.

(Should make a thread and call it: "Is it just me or are half the threads on here from competing game companies trying to make up nonsense?")

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3050

I am more than some of my parts

7/05/12 4:32:22 PM#217
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

 

PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

 

A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

 

 

I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

/end sarcasm

 

Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

 

 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  TwoThreeFour

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2133

7/05/12 4:36:10 PM#218
Originally posted by Thrashbarg

(...) People can go ahead and spend a bunch of money to rush through and miss a lot of the content for all I care. Doesn't make sense to me to buy a game then pay more to skip a bunch of it, but hey, I'm weird.

(...)

 

Because certain content is more desirable than other. They spend a bunch of money to quicker access content that they want. They use money to spend less time in certain content and more time in other content. I can imagine that dedicated and competitive who play GW2 almost entirely for the World vs World, will have reason to try to speed-level themselves to 80 and maximize their character as fast as possible.

  TwoThreeFour

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2133

7/05/12 4:37:27 PM#219
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

He has a good point: "People need to adjust thier definitions of Pay2Win back to what it actually means. " , but his definition isn't doing that. 

 

PayTo Win, just means Pay To Win. To know whether or not something is "Pay To Win", you need to define the competition of relevance and from that analyze if paying is helping you significantely towards winning.

 

A not-so-often mentioned aspect of "Pay To Win" is that it refers to "sanctioned Pay To Win", which is why "Pay To Win through illegal means" are not discussed.

 

 

I think you've done a fine job of managing to say virtually nothing at all.  Are you a politician?

 

Would you mind clarifying what you feel that "winning" even is, so we can all understand what you are perceiving?

Assume Player A and Player B participate in a competition with certain winning conditions, then whoever reaches those winning conditions first, wins.

  Thanosxp

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/05
Posts: 172

7/05/12 4:39:23 PM#220

It seens that "P2W" is the concept poisoning the discussion. Just for the sake of argument: If ALL this discussion was about "Pay to in game advantages", the fuss would be the same?

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