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Off-Topic Discussion  » Milk, the thing they're not telling you.

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22 posts found
  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/04/12 6:05:12 AM#1

This is a cow with the disease called Johne's disease:


 

This is a Bufallo with the same disease:


 

Here is a goat with the same disease:

 

You can see the animal is losing weight rapidly, those animals will simply die.

It has been found in primates and other animals too.

 

Now for the kicker, this bacteria called (Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis) is in a huge percentage of the milk supply right now, if you go into any store right now, a biologist will be able to find a box of milk with it in it. Here are some numbers for you:

 

 

So what disease is linked to this in humans, crohn's disease:

 

 

  pyrofreak

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 1500

Peace (noun): A period of cheating between two wars.

7/04/12 6:22:25 AM#2

But there's no proof Crohns and Johne's are related.

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  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/04/12 6:28:07 AM#3
Originally posted by pyrofreak

But there's no proof Crohns and Johne's are related.

There is plenty of proof. MAP is found in over 92% of people suffering from Crohn.

MAP in a patient with crohn:

"Researchers found Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis (MAP) bacteria in 92% of patients with the disease.

The epidemic of Johne's disease, like that of mad cow disease, is an indictment of factory farming.[417] Intensive confinement systems in animal agriculture have been accused of not only threatening the global environment, but public health as well.[418] The unnatural concentration of animals raised for slaughter, for example, has led to other human tragedies including the single worst epidemic in recorded world history, the 1918 influenza pandemic.[419] In that case, the unnatural density and proximity of pigs and ducks raised for slaughter led to the deaths of upwards of 40 million people.[420]

This potential crisis is also an indictment of an industry that continues to risk public safety and a government that seems to protect business interests over those of the consumer. As Karen Meyer recently told the LA Times, "There comes a point in time where consumer health takes precedence over commercial concerns."[421]

Every few hours, another child in this country is diagnosed with Crohn's disease and may be condemned to a life of chronic suffering.[422] The balance of evidence strongly suggests a causative link between Mycobacterium paratuberculosis and Crohn's disease.423 This public health issue has been at the periphery of the dairy industry's agenda for years, a nagging concern on the back burner.[424] The consumer movement needs to move it to the front burner and needs to turn up the heat."

  Dragonantis

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/10
Posts: 967

7/04/12 7:06:58 AM#4

*His eyes are closed so he is blind to the truth!*

YOU took that away from me!!!

*Throws glass of milk at the wall*

But yeah I am genueinly concerned right now...

  Naqaj

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1672

7/04/12 7:16:59 AM#5
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by pyrofreak

But there's no proof Crohns and Johne's are related.

There is plenty of proof. MAP is found in over 92% of people suffering from Crohn.

That alone doesn't prove anything. How high is the incidence in people without Crohn? 

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/04/12 7:27:06 AM#6
Originally posted by Naqaj
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by pyrofreak

But there's no proof Crohns and Johne's are related.

There is plenty of proof. MAP is found in over 92% of people suffering from Crohn.

That alone doesn't prove anything. How high is the incidence in people without Crohn? 

0 to 30% on average. The main focus is on antibodies, in CD patients they find antibodies, in controls they often don't.

A distinction is also made between the spheroplast form or not.

It's natural that they find MAP in healthy people too, since it's so widespread. A heatlhy person just drinking a box of contaminated milk will have enough bacteria that it shows up for up to 24 hours in their body.

There are a few cases that show MAP is found less in CD patients than in control after they take medication, but they're higher than controls before they start treatment, the amount of antibodies goes down also.

 

The first picture shows a higher percentage in people with the disease (CD).

The control is much lower.

After treatment the CD patients drop below the controls within 24 hours.

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/04/12 8:40:06 AM#7

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pYuf5rnnQo&feature=relmfu Excuse the person who set eery music on top of it.

  Illius

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 3903

I intend to live forever -- So far so good!

7/05/12 3:49:16 PM#8

Going by that table you posted I noticed the prevalance was really high in Inda of all the countries.  I would like to know how many cases India has just out of curiosity.

Even though I'm not discounting the possibility of milk being somehow linked to Chron's Disease I reserve judgement until I see figures from countries where the % is really high.

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  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/06/12 7:38:37 AM#9
Originally posted by Illius

Going by that table you posted I noticed the prevalance was really high in Inda of all the countries.  I would like to know how many cases India has just out of curiosity.

Even though I'm not discounting the possibility of milk being somehow linked to Chron's Disease I reserve judgement until I see figures from countries where the % is really high.

Yep, good point. Crohn is quite low in India, but in India people boil the milk after they purchase it, which is killing the bacteria.

In the West they don't boil it, pasteurisation is done at 75 degrees celcius for several seconds, and MAP easily survives this (as you can tell from that table).

On the other side of the spectrum you have a country like Ireland, where Crohn is much higher than anywhere else, they have been drinking raw milk for years.

 

I need to add that the bacteria has now progressed into water reservoirs, (although the presence in milk is still higher) it's present in water and in bottled water, the fields with infected cows have feces with the bacteria, it seeps into the soil, and is contaminating water.

 

Another point I would like to make is that you can see huge differences between the PCR and culture mehod on that table. MAP is an intracellular bacteria, just like tuberculosis, and is quite hard to detect. It's very easy to rig a test to make it fall into whatever favorable side you want it to fall into, it's really easy to pretend the bacteria simply isn't there, especially since the bacteria multiplies very slowly, it means that culturing the bacteria takes quite a while. Even though the bacteria might not show up in the first test, with enough culturing and the right PCR test, it will often show up. Labs with the know how have very little trouble making MAP show up, while some labs don't get a single positive result, even though other labs get positive results from the same source.

Someone made a graph once where they put older results against newer results in terms of MAP detection. The newer studies show much higher MAP rates in dairy, water and crohn patients. It doesn't mean the old studies were rigged, it just shows that the tests have become better and more sensitive and see MAP where no one could find it before.

 

 

Here is a map of the prevelance of crohn around the world. What's interesting here is singled out countries with crohn like South-Africa, Sudan and China, countries that imported a lot of European cows.

  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/06/12 2:13:21 PM#10
Originally posted by Dekron

[mod edit]

I spend mutliple paragraphs explaining a serious issue and concern and your question is "And your point is what"?

Try reading next time you decide to reply to my thread.

  Man1ac

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/07
Posts: 1432

7/06/12 3:10:41 PM#11
Originally posted by Dekron

[mod edit]

Well call him crazy and the rest of us but we are usually concerned about our health and wellbeing, tbh a lot of the time it's all about something or other can give you cancer, etc etc, i hope this isn't too serious as a 1.6% here, I have bowl of cereal every day for breakfast 

We're all Geniuses. Most of us just don't know it.

  Sawtooth

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/06/04
Posts: 2902

7/06/12 10:24:06 PM#12
Originally posted by CalmOceans
 The unnatural concentration of animals raised for slaughter, for example, has led to other human tragedies including the single worst epidemic in recorded world history, the 1918 influenza pandemic.[419] In that case, the unnatural density and proximity of pigs and ducks raised for slaughter led to the deaths of upwards of 40 million people.[420]

Alot of the data you provided is interesting, but I'm afraid I must take issue with the quoted section. The 1918 influenza pandemic, the so-called "Spanish flu," was so widespread because of the massive worldwide movement of humans at the time due to the first world war. A popular theory is that it originated in animals bred for Fort Riley, Kansas and passed from soldiers there to the rest of the world, but it is only one of many theories and there is not enough data to make a sound judgement. The 'Spanish flu' was also only known to strike humans. It is unfair to jump to the conclusion that the livestock industry is responsible for the deaths of 40 to 130 million people.

Besides that I found your posts an interesting read. I'm not convinced one way or another but it's certainly something to think about. I'm curious what you know of the so-called 'organic' or 'natrual' food movement, if animals raised according to those standards are any better or worse off. If I buy organic milk from the store would it be any safer? And if not, what would the industry need to do to improve this issue?

  pyrofreak

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 1500

Peace (noun): A period of cheating between two wars.

7/07/12 12:32:32 AM#13
Originally posted by Sawtooth
Originally posted by CalmOceans
 The unnatural concentration of animals raised for slaughter, for example, has led to other human tragedies including the single worst epidemic in recorded world history, the 1918 influenza pandemic.[419] In that case, the unnatural density and proximity of pigs and ducks raised for slaughter led to the deaths of upwards of 40 million people.[420]

Alot of the data you provided is interesting, but I'm afraid I must take issue with the quoted section. The 1918 influenza pandemic, the so-called "Spanish flu," was so widespread because of the massive worldwide movement of humans at the time due to the first world war. A popular theory is that it originated in animals bred for Fort Riley, Kansas and passed from soldiers there to the rest of the world, but it is only one of many theories and there is not enough data to make a sound judgement. The 'Spanish flu' was also only known to strike humans. It is unfair to jump to the conclusion that the livestock industry is responsible for the deaths of 40 to 130 million people.

Besides that I found your posts an interesting read. I'm not convinced one way or another but it's certainly something to think about. I'm curious what you know of the so-called 'organic' or 'natrual' food movement, if animals raised according to those standards are any better or worse off. If I buy organic milk from the store would it be any safer? And if not, what would the industry need to do to improve this issue?

Organics in animals is based on what they're fed and what suppliments including vaccinations and (lack of) antibiotics they're given. I'd say that organic milk would be more likely to contain the bacterium than regular milk.

 

Lactose intolerant reporting in, your milk problems aren't really my problem.

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  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/07/12 5:28:31 AM#14
Originally posted by Sawtooth.

 I'm curious what you know of the so-called 'organic' or 'natrual' food movement, if animals raised according to those standards are any better or worse off. If I buy organic milk from the store would it be any safer? And if not, what would the industry need to do to improve this issue?

It wouldn't be much safer, since it's found in many free ranging animals, they get it through the water from the soil, infected from cow feces, (bison, mouflon, wild rabbits are all getting it), there's also less chance of farmers spotting the disease, it's usually only spotted once animals start to die en masse. An animal can have MAP for years without knowing it, it's only after years of being infected that the animal start to show symptoms.

What they would need to do is enforcing cullings, all of those animals and the stock that came into contact with the bacteria needs to be killed. Milk and water would need to be boiled, not just pasteurised, and money needs to be spent to help people who have the bug right now. The killings of the animals and the economic loss is why everyone tries not to mention it, talking about this issue is like talking about aids one study said, farmers are trying to hush hush, it's getting harder and harder to keep it quiet, since free ranging animals are dying and non-farmers are starting to realise what is happening. Many containment programs have started the last couple of years, but it could be too late, millions of animals are now infected, and the water is contaminated now.

Not only is MAP spreading, but Crohn's disease is rising incredibly fast. In ireland there is an increase of 90%.

This rise is why they know it's caused by bacteria, since genes alone can't explain this anymore, a pure genetic disease can't rise over a certain percentage per year, simply because only a limited number of people can transmit the disease yearly, only a limited number of babies are born every year. A disease triggered by bacteria has no limits, it can spread much faster.

(there is likely a genetic predisposition though, some people are more prone to getting infected than others, just like some people tend to get colds really fast while others never get a cold. The actual genes involved in crohn and MAP that predispose is the NOD2/Card 15 gene, but many animals / humans without the modified gene are getting it too, it's just balancing the scale slightly in favor of people with the predisposition)

"The multi-centre Irish team said new cases have increased by 90% over the last ten years."

 

 

Once monkeys got involved many realised this was serious, since the  physiology of monkeys is so close to us, so it's highly unlikely humans aren't getting sick from this.

"Mycobacterium paratuberculosis infection was documented in a colony of stumptail macaque monkeys (Macaca arctoides), with 29 (76%) of 38 monkeys infected and shedding organisms in feces. Thirteen deaths have occurred during the past five years.

These findings extend the natural host range of M. paratuberculosis to include nonhuman primates and add support to current suggestions that M. paratuberculosis may be pathogenic for humans."

 

Another reason for concern is that MAP is a mycobacteria like Tuberculosis, it's similar in many ways, it's intracellular, multiplies slow, hard to kill, etc, so far all the mycobacteria I know are cross-species, monkeys get infected with TB just like humans do, the idea that humans aren't getting sick from MAP in some way or another is very far fetched. The most likely candidate right now is Crohn's disease, but there are others like Type II Diabetes and some other diseases that might be involved.

Monkey with TB:

 

MAP has quite a number of different strains too, MAP found in goats is a different strain from the one found in cows for example, MAP is an incredibly advanced bacteria, it's able to adapt very well to it's host's conditions. Iron depleting the host for example has almost no effect on the bacteria, it has found very advanced pathways to steal iron from the host and stay alive under very harsh conditions.

  khamul787

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/11
Posts: 184

7/09/12 10:24:32 AM#15
Originally posted by Dekron
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Dekron
[mod edit]

I spend mutliple paragraphs explaining a serious issue and concern and your question is "And your point is what"?

Try reading next time you decide to reply to my thread.

[mod edit]

 

[mod edit] All he's doing is making this forum aware of a potential problem in the diet of the Western milk drinker. That's all. I read nothing about "stop mistreating animals," nothing about "only eat vegetables, they give you special powers." All he's saying is boil your milk. Tone down the aggressiveness a bit, mate.

  Belarion

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/10
Posts: 601

hello

7/09/12 4:12:53 PM#16
Originally posted by Dekron
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Dekron

[mod edit]

I spend mutliple paragraphs explaining a serious issue and concern and your question is "And your point is what"?

Try reading next time you decide to reply to my thread.

[mod edit]

 

 

[mod edit]

OP is Crohns disease curable? Is it always fatal?

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  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  7/09/12 4:50:28 PM#17
Originally posted by Belarion

OP is Crohns disease curable? Is it always fatal?

It's not curable at this point, although there have been cases where people became symptom free, but they are extremely rare.

Crohn isn't usually fatal, it's a disease that is managed by antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs to stop the cytokine that are causing the inflammation, together with a diet.

Johne's disease is usually fatal in animals since the cost of treating an animal is not worth it, and there's a high change that it infects the rest of the herd, so the animal is usually killed (and sometimes sadly turned into hamburgers when no one is looking).

There is a form of vaccination for Johne's disease, where they inject a small number of bacteria (often a combination of dead and live ones) under the skin of a newborn animal, but those animals do still get sick, but the disease tends to be less extreme than in untreated animals. The major benefit of this for farmers is that there is less chance of it spreading through feces since the shedding of bacteria is less extreme, so less chance of infecting the rest of the herd.

There's a few cases where the farmer has come into contact with the vaccination needle (by accident), those cases are really interesting to researchers, since it shows direct exposure from MAP to humans. There's a granuloma (reaction against the bacteria) reaction under the skin, very similar to crohn in the intestine, and it takes months before those farmers are healed.

  Xirik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 1688

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets and lies!

7/09/12 11:40:49 PM#18

US should be red on that map. They try not to report cases of it cause it hurts the industry.

"You have some serious mental issues you may need to seek some help for. There are others who post things, but do not post them in the way you do. Out of every person who posts crazy shit in this forum, you have some of the craziest and scariest" -FarReach

  Phantasmagoria

Novice Member

Joined: 7/10/12
Posts: 65

7/17/12 3:35:30 AM#19

why did i open this thread :( Should I stop milk? nooooo i can't.................

Does this apply to powdered milk too?

  Dekron

Old School

Joined: 10/01/03
Posts: 9540

7/17/12 10:33:49 AM#20
Originally posted by Xirik

US should be red on that map. They try not to report cases of it cause it hurts the industry.

Source?

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