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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » How we knew TOR would fail.

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217 posts found
  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

7/03/12 2:58:25 PM#41
Originally posted by klinnear
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

SWG at 250k subscribers pre changes was still a failure.  SWTOR will never be the failure that SWG was.

SWG also didn't cost the crazy amount that SWTOR did.  There is no doubt that TOR had tremendous initial success.  It should have, with the expensive marketing campaign thrown at it.  SWG's marketing was no where near a competitive level as MMO's were not mainstream at the time.  The only way we will know whether SWTOR is a larger success is to wait and see if it can retain a high level of Subs over a period of time.  If it can hold 500k plus then no one can argue that it was not a success.  Everyone has to get out of the idea that any MMO right now is going to hit WoW numbers.

I personally don't see SWTOR hanging onto those kind of numbers over a significant amount of years.  Its pure opinion though, and I could be proven wrong int he years to come. 

What I have noticed though from games like Archeage, The Repopulation, and Grimlands is that true Hybrids seem to be up and coming, where Theme-Park style questing is mixed into a large open worlds that contain all the social elements like player driven economy, pure crafting professions, player housing and player cities, etc .

 

 SWG only had that 250k for a short period of time. During most of it's existence it was around 50k or less. So by even your own standards SWG wasn't a success,

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  klinnear

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/11
Posts: 6

7/03/12 3:19:49 PM#42
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by klinnear
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

SWG at 250k subscribers pre changes was still a failure.  SWTOR will never be the failure that SWG was.

SWG also didn't cost the crazy amount that SWTOR did.  There is no doubt that TOR had tremendous initial success.  It should have, with the expensive marketing campaign thrown at it.  SWG's marketing was no where near a competitive level as MMO's were not mainstream at the time.  The only way we will know whether SWTOR is a larger success is to wait and see if it can retain a high level of Subs over a period of time.  If it can hold 500k plus then no one can argue that it was not a success.  Everyone has to get out of the idea that any MMO right now is going to hit WoW numbers.

I personally don't see SWTOR hanging onto those kind of numbers over a significant amount of years.  Its pure opinion though, and I could be proven wrong int he years to come. 

What I have noticed though from games like Archeage, The Repopulation, and Grimlands is that true Hybrids seem to be up and coming, where Theme-Park style questing is mixed into a large open worlds that contain all the social elements like player driven economy, pure crafting professions, player housing and player cities, etc .

 

 SWG only had that 250k for a short period of time. During most of it's existence it was around 50k or less. So by even your own standards SWG wasn't a success,


From the charts I have seen SWG remained above 200k from 2003 to 2006, and then dropped drastically.  (Although not sure how accurate these charts are http://mmodata.blogspot.ca/)  200k pre-WOW was not a complete failure.  Like I said, in comparison to the amount of money TOR has spent I don't think we can call TOR a failure if it's numbers stay above 500k for the next couple of years.  I am not arguing that SWG is or was more successful.  It wasn't.  But I don't think it was a huge failure in its first 3 years either. 

Also I think that the player base of MMO's are maturing into wanting more complex games, with a lot of the elements that SWG had.  Most of the gamers that were 14 when WOW first came out seem to of outgrown the more simplified MMO.  Again pure opinion on my part, but with the sudden high interest in Hybrid MMO's that would make sense to me.

  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

7/03/12 3:33:15 PM#43

Anyone in beta could tell it was doomed. The devs barely acknowledged the testers. Then when all the features that wouldn't be in the game were brought up and they were told it's 2012, not 2005 and they needed to be features for launch, they put the "ideas" on the "wall of crazy" which meant, "***T we will give them as update patches as content". People weren't as dumb as they'd hoped, and their egos are still telling them they can turn the game around. They deserved to fail.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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Dark Age of Camelot

  dead2soon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/11
Posts: 151

7/03/12 3:36:06 PM#44
Originally posted by Trionicus
It's finshed failing? I thought it was still around with uuh.. 1.3million subs.

I would be amazed if this aging number was still valid now.

  MMOarQQ

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 659

"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain."

7/03/12 3:36:13 PM#45

Tor didn't fail. It's equally as important as Tiger Woods Golf (post cheating and wrecking his escalade while high on pain killers).

  Alders

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1690

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

7/03/12 3:37:44 PM#46
Originally posted by Unlight
Originally posted by theJexster

SWG pre CU had around 250k subs.

SWG NGE had (rumored) around 10k

SWG NGE was a failed attempt at a Star Wars them park. Star wars fans like freedom, creativity, uniqueness, and more than anything, they want to live in the star wars universe. They view Luke as the hero, not themselves. A theme park is contrary to the very beliefs that Star Wars and it's fan hold dear.

So what should a company do after seeing that making a Star Wars game into a theme park failed, make another Star Wars game theme park! Makes perfect business sense. Because we all know Star Wars fans are all WOW fans right, no, not even close.

If TOR was a hybrid, take what the last 2 years of SWG was and mix it with SWG pre CU then add in some modern touches it would have destroyed WOW. Players don't want more WOW, they already did WOW, and WOW does WOW better than any of these other hacks can do WOW. Not to mention half the WOW players are sick of WOW but just keep playing it because it makes no sense to start over in another diet coke half baked WOW when your already getting WOW.

Silly 60 year old corporate decision makers, they heard "10 million players, $15 a month, Star Wars like Warcraft" and they thought it was a sure thing, they underestimate us, and now they burry TOR with all the other soulless cash grabs.

It has nothing to do with theme park vs. sandbox.  That's crap.  The game is faltering for two reasons:  the idea that story could trump gameplay in an MMO was flawed and they executed damned near everything poorly. 

Hopefully it will serve as an example to other developers of what not to do.

 

This right here.

I remember reading general chat about 6 months prior to release about how "Bioware knocked one out of the park with this".  I promptly responded with a laundry list of what i felt was wrong with the game, only to be ridiculed and told to go back to an MMO i've never played.  Blind loyalty for a company that couldn't possibly fuck up Star Wars at it's finest.  That right there was part of the problem.

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

7/03/12 3:42:05 PM#47
Originally posted by theJexster

SWG pre CU had around 250k subs.

SWG NGE had (rumored) around 10k

SWG NGE was a failed attempt at a Star Wars them park. Star wars fans like freedom, creativity, uniqueness, and more than anything, they want to live in the star wars universe. They view Luke as the hero, not themselves. A theme park is contrary to the very beliefs that Star Wars and it's fan hold dear.

So what should a company do after seeing that making a Star Wars game into a theme park failed, make another Star Wars game theme park! Makes perfect business sense. Because we all know Star Wars fans are all WOW fans right, no, not even close.

If TOR was a hybrid, take what the last 2 years of SWG was and mix it with SWG pre CU then add in some modern touches it would have destroyed WOW. Players don't want more WOW, they already did WOW, and WOW does WOW better than any of these other hacks can do WOW. Not to mention half the WOW players are sick of WOW but just keep playing it because it makes no sense to start over in another diet coke half baked WOW when your already getting WOW.

Silly 60 year old corporate decision makers, they heard "10 million players, $15 a month, Star Wars like Warcraft" and they thought it was a sure thing, they underestimate us, and now they burry TOR with all the other soulless cash grabs.

Wow so what you are saying is that BW should have made SWG 2.0 so they could have went for the lofty 250k of us who played pre CU SWG?

Even using your own logic you are wrong do you know hw many people have seen and loved Star Wars? Surely alot more than the number of people who played SWG I don't think you can claim to speak for the masses of star wars fans any more than I can, heck maybe I'm even more qualified than you because I still like and watch all six of the films and still play the mmorpg that lucas is actually supporting still.

  Sandman24

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/06
Posts: 49

7/03/12 3:43:33 PM#48

Nothing like a hind sight post telling us what someone knew prior but didn't post til after.  ROFL

That being said, I agree with most of your reasoning.  I don't agree with the strange statement that people see Luke as the hero and not themselves (that's what movies are for).  People want to play the hero in games, that's very simple to understand.

Also, why do people keep comparing everything to WOW?  No mmo will ever reach those hights again, ever.  The market was new when WOW started and with all the mmos and thier formulas today it is too hard to keep gamers attention for long with one game.

WOW continues to thrive because of it's community and how long everyone has played with each other, not because the game itself is superior.  People play the games they can play with thier friends, also simple to understand.

 

 

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19003

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/03/12 3:49:26 PM#49

Well, I don't believe subs are anywhere near 1.3 M right now, be surprised if they broke 500K actually, and expect them to plummet even further.

But was it a failure, these days the business model seems to be push out a lot of copies upon release, pretty sure SWTOR accomplished that goal, and some much smaller subset of subs/cash shop sales to keep the game going.

Might all be going according to plan, Developers might not be shooting for WOW like results at all anymore.

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

7/03/12 3:52:08 PM#50
Originally posted by Sandman24

Nothing like a hind sight post telling us what someone knew prior but didn't post til after.  ROFL

That being said, I agree with most of your reasoning.  I don't agree with the strange statement that people see Luke as the hero and not themselves (that's what movies are for).  People want to play the hero in games, that's very simple to understand.

 

Much like the entire "sonicgate video" without tricking people into believing that statement is true he can fool no one into believing the rest of what he said.  Honestly at the time of SWG launch I still had friends who played video games alot and most of them quit SWG simply because they didn't want to live the non descript lives that he claims all star wars fans want to live.

I also love how he is totally ignoring all the people who are pointing out the falacy of the statement suggesting he can speak for all star wars fans simply because he may be able to speak for some 100k SWG fans.

Sure some SWG fans were star wars fans as well but let's be honest here the op is a much bigger mmorpg fan than a star wars fan if not he would not be trashing what is otherwise the best star wars rpg to date.

  Sandman24

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/06
Posts: 49

7/03/12 3:54:13 PM#51
Originally posted by Kyleran

Well, I don't believe subs are anywhere near 1.3 M right now, be surprised if they broke 500K actually, and expect them to plummet even further.

But was it a failure, these days the business model seems to be push out a lot of copies upon release, pretty sure SWTOR accomplished that goal, and some much smaller subset of subs/cash shop sales to keep the game going.

Might all be going according to plan, Developers might not be shooting for WOW like results at all anymore.

Exactly!  Box sales = meat & potatoes, subs = gravy on the potatoes.  People need to stop comparing things to WOW, it's really getting old and shows a complete lack of understanding of where mmos are these days.

  sirphobos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 601

7/03/12 3:54:51 PM#52

SWTOR is currently the top subscription based game on xfire not named World of Warcraft.  Not really sure how that qualifies as a failure.  Fact is, no subscription game in history has come close to WoW's numbers.  WoW is an anomaly in the world of subscription MMOs and other games should in no circumstance be compared to it to judge success.

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4146

Trolls will be ignored

7/03/12 4:01:21 PM#53
Originally posted by klinnear
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by klinnear
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

SWG at 250k subscribers pre changes was still a failure.  SWTOR will never be the failure that SWG was.

SWG also didn't cost the crazy amount that SWTOR did.  There is no doubt that TOR had tremendous initial success.  It should have, with the expensive marketing campaign thrown at it.  SWG's marketing was no where near a competitive level as MMO's were not mainstream at the time.  The only way we will know whether SWTOR is a larger success is to wait and see if it can retain a high level of Subs over a period of time.  If it can hold 500k plus then no one can argue that it was not a success.  Everyone has to get out of the idea that any MMO right now is going to hit WoW numbers.

I personally don't see SWTOR hanging onto those kind of numbers over a significant amount of years.  Its pure opinion though, and I could be proven wrong int he years to come. 

What I have noticed though from games like Archeage, The Repopulation, and Grimlands is that true Hybrids seem to be up and coming, where Theme-Park style questing is mixed into a large open worlds that contain all the social elements like player driven economy, pure crafting professions, player housing and player cities, etc .

 

 SWG only had that 250k for a short period of time. During most of it's existence it was around 50k or less. So by even your own standards SWG wasn't a success,


From the charts I have seen SWG remained above 200k from 2003 to 2006, and then dropped drastically.  (Although not sure how accurate these charts are http://mmodata.blogspot.ca/)  200k pre-WOW was not a complete failure.  Like I said, in comparison to the amount of money TOR has spent I don't think we can call TOR a failure if it's numbers stay above 500k for the next couple of years.  I am not arguing that SWG is or was more successful.  It wasn't.  But I don't think it was a huge failure in its first 3 years either. 

I don't think it was a huge failure either. I'm just making sure that we are applying the same standards across the board. SWG had plenty of hype for it's day. There has never been a Star Wars game of any kind that didn't have decent marketing behind it.

Also I think that the player base of MMO's are maturing into wanting more complex games, with a lot of the elements that SWG had.  Most of the gamers that were 14 when WOW first came out seem to of outgrown the more simplified MMO.  Again pure opinion on my part, but with the sudden high interest in Hybrid MMO's that would make sense to me.

 I'm interested as well in some of the upcoming titles, but I don't think they're going to have that much of an effect on TOR. TERA didn't seem to affect TOR in any way and I doubt that TSW did either. The players that jump from game to game are always going to do that because they get bored easy. The people that are curently enjoying TOR aren't going to jump ship until they themselves get bored., The disgruntled vets on this site tend to see WOW in eveyrthing so I doubt they'll ever be happy. The MMO market is a big pie now. One game's success doesn't neccessarily mean another game's failure. 

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  Suraknar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/07
Posts: 808

*Everyone dies, not everyone really fights*

7/03/12 5:01:42 PM#54
Originally posted by theJexster

SWG pre CU had around 250k subs.

SWG NGE had (rumored) around 10k

SWG NGE was a failed attempt at a Star Wars them park. Star wars fans like freedom, creativity, uniqueness, and more than anything, they want to live in the star wars universe. They view Luke as the hero, not themselves. A theme park is contrary to the very beliefs that Star Wars and it's fan hold dear.

So what should a company do after seeing that making a Star Wars game into a theme park failed, make another Star Wars game theme park! Makes perfect business sense. Because we all know Star Wars fans are all WOW fans right, no, not even close.

If TOR was a hybrid, take what the last 2 years of SWG was and mix it with SWG pre CU then add in some modern touches it would have destroyed WOW. Players don't want more WOW, they already did WOW, and WOW does WOW better than any of these other hacks can do WOW. Not to mention half the WOW players are sick of WOW but just keep playing it because it makes no sense to start over in another diet coke half baked WOW when your already getting WOW.

Silly 60 year old corporate decision makers, they heard "10 million players, $15 a month, Star Wars like Warcraft" and they thought it was a sure thing, they underestimate us, and now they burry TOR with all the other soulless cash grabs.

i agree with the sentiments of this Post.

I left SWG after NGE...i told myself, if they are Changing (destroying) what I have come to love for something else inspired by some other game, well then, maybethat other game is worth taking a look...and so I went to play WoW for the first time because of NGE.

I did not like it as much as pre-NGE SWG of course, and I would still be playing SWG if NGE was not there...WoW had enough content to keep me a total of one year (9 months Vanilla, 1 month month BC a couple with LK)..but eventually got bored, same old same old..Themepark stuff.

As for TOR, I thought that it was another attempt to take a Jab at attracting WoW players, and I beleive it is a continuation of NGE...it did not meet the escompted Goal so hey, lets make a totally new Game, hire anotehr Company to do it with us and try to emulate the same Feat that WoW pulled with the IP...wrong...i was not interested in TOR because it was being made in to a themepark and for the same reason I quit SWG...and here we are today...observing its slow and steady downfall...

- Duke Suraknar -
Order of the Silver Star, OSS


ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2388

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

7/03/12 5:05:56 PM#55

...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  ohiokid

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 9

7/03/12 5:44:49 PM#56

The inner workings of the game and the lack of effort put into the classes and the combat system that is the downfall. This game becomes very boring very fast. Good flash up front. There is a 4 cylinder under the hood and it is missing badly.

  Deewe

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/08
Posts: 1976

7/03/12 6:39:12 PM#57
Originally posted by theJexster

**snip**

Silly 60 year old corporate decision makers, they heard "10 million players, $15 a month, Star Wars like Warcraft" and they thought it was a sure thing, they underestimate us, and now they burry TOR with all the other soulless cash grabs.

To me the producer does not looks like 60 years old that much if you ask.

  superniceguy

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2277

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

7/03/12 7:58:45 PM#58
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by klinnear
Originally posted by ktanner3
Originally posted by klinnear
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

SWG at 250k subscribers pre changes was still a failure.  SWTOR will never be the failure that SWG was.

SWG also didn't cost the crazy amount that SWTOR did.  There is no doubt that TOR had tremendous initial success.  It should have, with the expensive marketing campaign thrown at it.  SWG's marketing was no where near a competitive level as MMO's were not mainstream at the time.  The only way we will know whether SWTOR is a larger success is to wait and see if it can retain a high level of Subs over a period of time.  If it can hold 500k plus then no one can argue that it was not a success.  Everyone has to get out of the idea that any MMO right now is going to hit WoW numbers.

I personally don't see SWTOR hanging onto those kind of numbers over a significant amount of years.  Its pure opinion though, and I could be proven wrong int he years to come. 

What I have noticed though from games like Archeage, The Repopulation, and Grimlands is that true Hybrids seem to be up and coming, where Theme-Park style questing is mixed into a large open worlds that contain all the social elements like player driven economy, pure crafting professions, player housing and player cities, etc .

 

 SWG only had that 250k for a short period of time. During most of it's existence it was around 50k or less. So by even your own standards SWG wasn't a success,


From the charts I have seen SWG remained above 200k from 2003 to 2006, and then dropped drastically.  (Although not sure how accurate these charts are http://mmodata.blogspot.ca/)  200k pre-WOW was not a complete failure.  Like I said, in comparison to the amount of money TOR has spent I don't think we can call TOR a failure if it's numbers stay above 500k for the next couple of years.  I am not arguing that SWG is or was more successful.  It wasn't.  But I don't think it was a huge failure in its first 3 years either. 

I don't think it was a huge failure either. I'm just making sure that we are applying the same standards across the board. SWG had plenty of hype for it's day. There has never been a Star Wars game of any kind that didn't have decent marketing behind it.

Also I think that the player base of MMO's are maturing into wanting more complex games, with a lot of the elements that SWG had.  Most of the gamers that were 14 when WOW first came out seem to of outgrown the more simplified MMO.  Again pure opinion on my part, but with the sudden high interest in Hybrid MMO's that would make sense to me.

 I'm interested as well in some of the upcoming titles, but I don't think they're going to have that much of an effect on TOR. TERA didn't seem to affect TOR in any way and I doubt that TSW did either. The players that jump from game to game are always going to do that because they get bored easy. The people that are curently enjoying TOR aren't going to jump ship until they themselves get bored., The disgruntled vets on this site tend to see WOW in eveyrthing so I doubt they'll ever be happy. The MMO market is a big pie now. One game's success doesn't neccessarily mean another game's failure. 


SWG was not that hyped, as I did not realise about it until it was released.

KOTOR was more hyped than SWG in 2003

  chryses

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/07
Posts: 1438

7/03/12 8:25:38 PM#59
Originally posted by Xssiv
Originally posted by theJexster

SWG pre CU had around 250k subs.

SWG NGE had (rumored) around 10k

SWG NGE was a failed attempt at a Star Wars them park. Star wars fans like freedom, creativity, uniqueness, and more than anything, they want to live in the star wars universe. They view Luke as the hero, not themselves. A theme park is contrary to the very beliefs that Star Wars and it's fan hold dear.

 

This is so true.  

 

 

can't agree more.  Maybe in some MMO's the age group may want to be all super hero's.  Star Wars is a lot different.  As a Star Wars fan I wanted to live in the Star Wars Universe and work up a reputation.  Jedi's, Sith etc. Should be almost unattainable except for players who have absolutely killed to get it.  I think something similar would be players who can fly a Titan in EVE. It takes years...

Star Wars should have vast open spaces with guilds fighting over control.  Place massive PvE hubs and let PvE players feed resources into the fight and the options are endless.  Imagine a guild taking over a ghetto and NPC's start turning up to trade and you can upgrade canteena's for other players to visit. 

  SumterSide

Novice Member

Joined: 6/18/12
Posts: 32

7/03/12 9:16:10 PM#60
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

SWG at 250k subscribers pre changes was still a failure.  SWTOR will never be the failure that SWG was.

When SWG came out, 250k subs was half the amount of the most popular MMO on the market.

SWG had 3 expansions behind it and limped on for years after it was ruined.

 

SWTOR will never see it's first expansion (you can qoute me on it). EA will not be willing to sink tens of millions more into SWTOR. 

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