Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by maplestone

I was recently struck by a comment in another thread that players should, when they reach the "end" of an MMO, simply move on to another game.  "Follow the fun" is normally a rather straight-forward and obvious suggestion (I may have even tossed it out myself once or twice), but this time I had a strong visceral reaction to the idea - it seemed horribly, horribly wrong as a suggestion for an MMO.  Although I don't always come out and say it, in the back of my mind, I feel that MMOs should aspire the hold their players for a lifetime, that they should aspire to still be online a hundred years from now, although they might not bare much resemblence to their 1.0 state. 

I am not still playing the first MMO I ever played.  Or the second. But the first game I ever played is still online, still running and in the back of my mind, I keep expecting that someday I'll revisit it and look for old footprints of the past.  And even as I wander, I still keep expecting that I will find a game that I will play for the rest of my life.  You see, to me, what really differentiates an MMO from an ordinary video game is not massively, it's not even the multiplayer - it's the permanence.   It's the database I care about in the end, that sense that my gameplay is a part of contributing data to something that will last forever.

In terms of moment-to-moment fun, suitability to my playstyle interests or even graphics quality, there are probably better games out there than the ones I'm currently playing.  But what these new ambitious games pouring out often lack is that sense that their world is sustainable - that the game will still be online and actively evolving in a year, in five years, in ten years.

So ... Is the sense of permanence an important consideration in your choice of MMOs?  Or am I just being a little eccentric?

 

 

No. I don't need any permanence.

ANY games, even with a huge budget, has limited content. I am NOT in favor of playing the same thing forever. Some repetition is ok but everything gets old. It is in human nature that we want new stuff.

And there is no fundamental reason, except a personal preference, why a MMORPG needs to last forever.

I am more in favor of game hopping, as long as the game is fun. And as far as guild/friends are concerned, they can hop with me, or I can make new friends. In fact, a service like Battlenet is ideal since you keep your friends across games.

Permanence need not be interpreted as forever, just a good MMORPG maybe ought to have a steady, profitable 6 to 8 year run.  The length of time makes players' investments into their characters worthwhile.  Perhaps this is how MMORPG's are so different than single player or coop games.

I wonder, maybe, if MMORPG's are not for the game-hopping folks.  Maybe single player or coop is more down their alley.

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

 

Permanence need not be interpreted as forever, just a good MMORPG maybe ought to have a steady, profitable 6 to 8 year run.  The length of time makes players' investments into their characters worthwhile.  Perhaps this is how MMORPG's are so different than single player or coop games.

I wonder, maybe, if MMORPG's are not for the game-hopping folks.  Maybe single player or coop is more down their alley.

6-8 years? Nah. A few months is a LONG time in gaming. I won't even play WOW for 8 years.

And why make the distinction between MMORPG & co-op RPG? If the game is fun, i don't see a reason why i should not play it for a while. Secondly, the play style of MANY MMORPGs are exactly the same as a co-op action RPG like Diablo 3. You wait in a city (lobby) for your dungeon/raid to pop.

And what is worthwhile is for each individual player to decide. Who says i need years to feel leveling to be worthwhile?

I see no fundamental reason why a player should not play and enjoy a MMO for a few months, or even a few weeks. In fact, I have been doing that.

---

Originally posted by maplestone

---

Originally posted by Loktofeit I see that posted a lot here, but when asked for data to support that none ever shows up.

---

We're all working with our own honest desires, anecdotes and reading the tea leaves of what statistics do find their way into public.  It's completely fair to cast doubt over how representative we are of the wider potential market and to believe that publishers are better at this than we armchair analysts, but I think it's unfair to stop a forum discussion cold until there is a market research report in hand.

---

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

ANY games, even with a huge budget, has limited content. I am NOT in favor of playing the same thing forever. Some repetition is ok but everything gets old. It is in human nature that we want new stuff.

I would point out that major league baseball has been offering the same game for over a century.  

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

ANY games, even with a huge budget, has limited content. I am NOT in favor of playing the same thing forever. Some repetition is ok but everything gets old. It is in human nature that we want new stuff.

I would point out that major league baseball has been offering the same game for over a century.  

You don't see me playing major league baseball. Do you watch only your fav movie forever?

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

ANY games, even with a huge budget, has limited content. I am NOT in favor of playing the same thing forever. Some repetition is ok but everything gets old. It is in human nature that we want new stuff.

I would point out that major league baseball has been offering the same game for over a century.  

 Yes and people have been playing MMO's for years as well.  UO, EQ for sure but WoW, EQ2, CoH, Eve, VG... many many games, both old and new people have been playing for years.

However like baseball very very few people play them every day for hours upon hours for years upon years.  Most people play 1-2 days a week for a season, then again the next season...

IMO I honestly do not think most people every played MMO's for years and years, even old games, it was always only a small percentage.  Millions of people tried EQ, but it capped out at 450k at it's peak, therefore we can state that most people did not like it/or prefered not to play it for years.  Same with WoW, probably 100 million have played it, and it capped at 12 milllion with only 30% going past level 10, therefore once again either most didn't like it, or prefered not to play it for years.

IMO nothing has changed that way, most simply did not play for years, only a very few did.  I do not think most people every got to end game in EQ and I don't think most people have ever gotten to end game in WoW.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

You don't see me playing major league baseball.

I'm not telling you what to play.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

 

Permanence need not be interpreted as forever, just a good MMORPG maybe ought to have a steady, profitable 6 to 8 year run.  The length of time makes players' investments into their characters worthwhile.  Perhaps this is how MMORPG's are so different than single player or coop games.

I wonder, maybe, if MMORPG's are not for the game-hopping folks.  Maybe single player or coop is more down their alley.

6-8 years? Nah. A few months is a LONG time in gaming. I won't even play WOW for 8 years.

And why make the distinction between MMORPG & co-op RPG? If the game is fun, i don't see a reason why i should not play it for a while. Secondly, the play style of MANY MMORPGs are exactly the same as a co-op action RPG like Diablo 3. You wait in a city (lobby) for your dungeon/raid to pop.

And what is worthwhile is for each individual player to decide. Who says i need years to feel leveling to be worthwhile?

I see no fundamental reason why a player should not play and enjoy a MMO for a few months, or even a few weeks. In fact, I have been doing that.

It ain't the same.  Now, if short term casual gaming is your thing, fine.  No one is keeping you from that, and in fact most games cater to players like yourself.

But, for folks who want a deeper, more immersive experience, with longer term social bonding, the MMORPG as a world setting is the way to go.  This sort of game is needed... again.

(Analogy) In a town full of burger joints, what's wrong with adding in a fine dining restaurant?  Folks who want a quick burger can still hit a burger joint; no one is forcing them to the table at the fine dining restaurant.

I'll never understand how gamers can stick with a single title, non-stop, for years. 

A scoop of chocolate is always better than a scoop of vanilla, but if all I've had for months and months is chocolate, I'd kill for some vanilla.  If you don't, you must have burned out your taste buds and don't even realize it.  I'm guessing many longtime WoW players (as an example of a game with "permanence") can't even tell they're eating ice cream anymore.  They just keep shoveling cold goop into their mouths by reflex. 

---

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

---

Originally posted by nariusseldon

---

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

---

 

---

Permanence need not be interpreted as forever, just a good MMORPG maybe ought to have a steady, profitable 6 to 8 year run.  The length of time makes players' investments into their characters worthwhile.  Perhaps this is how MMORPG's are so different than single player or coop games. I wonder, maybe, if MMORPG's are not for the game-hopping folks.  Maybe single player or coop is more down their alley.

---

6-8 years? Nah. A few months is a LONG time in gaming. I won't even play WOW for 8 years. And why make the distinction between MMORPG & co-op RPG? If the game is fun, i don't see a reason why i should not play it for a while. Secondly, the play style of MANY MMORPGs are exactly the same as a co-op action RPG like Diablo 3. You wait in a city (lobby) for your dungeon/raid to pop. And what is worthwhile is for each individual player to decide. Who says i need years to feel leveling to be worthwhile? I see no fundamental reason why a player should not play and enjoy a MMO for a few months, or even a few weeks. In fact, I have been doing that.

---

It ain't the same.  Now, if short term casual gaming is your thing, fine.  No one is keeping you from that, and in fact most games cater to players like yourself.

But, for folks who want a deeper, more immersive experience, with longer term social bonding, the MMORPG as a world setting is the way to go.  This sort of game is needed... again.

 

(Analogy) In a town full of burger joints, what's wrong with adding in a fine dining restaurant?  Folks who want a quick burger can still hit a burger joint; no one is forcing them to the table at the fine dining restaurant.

---

Originally posted by spikers14

"From community comes a meaningful place in a virtual world. Most games have pretty "volatile" communities anymore. In addition, themeparks get their names for a reason. They are "rides". Sooner or later you either gotta get off the ride, or vomit. Both of which happen in these forums often :p "

This has to be the best way I've seen it put. Community is everything - and that is not to say you have to be someone active on forums or chat, but it's what the player base as a whole feels, reacts and behaves.

Personally, I am one of those old dusty crones still playing EverQuest 1. Sure I wander away for months at a time to play other MMOs but I keep going back to EQ. Why? Nostalgia I think. A great base game. But mostly chasing down the memories of what made me fall in love with MMO's. EQ wasn't my first, but it will always be my favorite.

That said, I also recognize I am chasing down a memory of the past. Communities have changed over the years. In the 'old' days of MMO's there were only a handful of games to play, and the communities were darn near religious about guarding their game vs another. I remember when WOW emerged, guildies were almost considered traitors for jumping ship. Guilds were families, and servers were extended families. Most games have such a high turn over now, as another poster in this thread said - a lot of people are considered veterans after paying their first sub fee. I think what I miss is that longevity. Knowing who the server leaders were - knowing who the guilds to aspire towards were, who to run and hide from, who were the trolls and who were the gold farmers. Now, it's just a bunch of random names you see for a few days and then become new names.

So yes, I do miss the 'permanence' of it all. I wish I could find that golden era again, but I know it will never happen.

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by lizardbones

If I was still playing WoW, I would have never played HalfLife2 or Portal. I would never have played Minecraft and I wouldn't now be playing The Walking Dead.

That makes zero sense.

The only kind of games that a subscription MMO would keep others from playing is *other* subscription MMOs. I don't know many people that didn't have time for other games fit around their MMO schedule, and the ones that *only* played WoW were total freaks, because they had all the time in the world ot play other games - they just didn't, because they were complete lunatics.

@Maplestone

You need to replace the word 'forever' for 'years'. No game is gonna last that long, but by all means, they should last us years at a time like they used to.

When you can play 5-10 hours per week it makes sense. MMOs are extremely time consuming even games which are supposed to be casual are super time consuming compared to other games. While I was playing MMOs, I used to play more hours per week (way more- probably 15-20 hours a week) and I didn't play other games. Ever since I stopped playing MMOs I have played tons of games and I am actually having a lot more fun.

MMOs can never provide me with the content that buying new games can. Worst thing is that MMOs are not so much fun as they are addictive.

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

 

It ain't the same.  Now, if short term casual gaming is your thing, fine.  No one is keeping you from that, and in fact most games cater to players like yourself.

But, for folks who want a deeper, more immersive experience, with longer term social bonding, the MMORPG as a world setting is the way to go.  This sort of game is needed... again.

Longer != deeper

Longer != more immersive.

SKYRIM is pretty immersive .. no one is going to play it for years.

In fact, i would play MANY MMOs on the market today. However, none of which i will play for more than a few month (may be at most a year), except WOW. WOW is phenomenal holding my attention for more a few years. I don't expect to play it much more though.

Originally posted by Medsi

Originally posted by spikers14

"From community comes a meaningful place in a virtual world. Most games have pretty "volatile" communities anymore. In addition, themeparks get their names for a reason. They are "rides". Sooner or later you either gotta get off the ride, or vomit. Both of which happen in these forums often :p "

 

This has to be the best way I've seen it put. Community is everything - and that is not to say you have to be someone active on forums or chat, but it's what the player base as a whole feels, reacts and behaves.

Personally, I am one of those old dusty crones still playing EverQuest 1. Sure I wander away for months at a time to play other MMOs but I keep going back to EQ. Why? Nostalgia I think. A great base game. But mostly chasing down the memories of what made me fall in love with MMO's. EQ wasn't my first, but it will always be my favorite.

That said, I also recognize I am chasing down a memory of the past. Communities have changed over the years. In the 'old' days of MMO's there were only a handful of games to play, and the communities were darn near religious about guarding their game vs another. I remember when WOW emerged, guildies were almost considered traitors for jumping ship. Guilds were families, and servers were extended families. Most games have such a high turn over now, as another poster in this thread said - a lot of people are considered veterans after paying their first sub fee. I think what I miss is that longevity. Knowing who the server leaders were - knowing who the guilds to aspire towards were, who to run and hide from, who were the trolls and who were the gold farmers. Now, it's just a bunch of random names you see for a few days and then become new names.

So yes, I do miss the 'permanence' of it all. I wish I could find that golden era again, but I know it will never happen.

Community is not a reason (for me) to hold onto a boring game. Plus, community is not game dependent. Most of my WOW friends are playing Diablo 3 now. No one says you can't play with the same people in more than 1 game.

I never said community was an end all be all. What I was stating is what a community is NOW compared to 10 years ago are two very different things.

For me, Community is important. I play MMOs for the social interaction. If I wanted an amazing submersive game play - I'll go play a single player game - they are designed precisely to make you the main focus. MMOs are about interaction with others within a game.

Sadly, more and more it's become a game of soloers who can chat, trade and auction to one another - and not much more.

Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by Loktofeit

I see that posted a lot here, but when asked for data to support that none ever shows up.

We're all working with our own honest desires, anecdotes and reading the tea leaves of what statistics do find their way into public.  It's completely fair to cast doubt over how representative we are of the wider potential market and to believe that publishers are better at this than we armchair analysts, but I think it's unfair to stop a forum discussion cold until there is a market research report in hand.

Now that's a crazy conclusion to derive from my statement, which was nothing more than pointing out it was stated as fact ( "There definitely is a demographic for this." ) and not saying he was wrong or that it shouldn't be suggested. I'm all for permanence in an MMO. I'm all for players making their marks. I'm all for designing an MMo with the intent of being around... say... 10, 20 or even 30 years later. Why? Because an MMO can be a virtual community, and virtual communities are where most of the current generation and - for the sake of keeping in touch with them - their parents are living right now. People often know more about the others in their virtual community than they do about the people that live on their own block.

If an MMO sets out to be a virtual community, the devs, whether they realize it or not, are setting out to build something to last decades. Ten years from now I can easily see internet communities being a crazy crossbreed of UO, EQ2 and Facebook.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

 

It ain't the same.  Now, if short term casual gaming is your thing, fine.  No one is keeping you from that, and in fact most games cater to players like yourself.

But, for folks who want a deeper, more immersive experience, with longer term social bonding, the MMORPG as a world setting is the way to go.  This sort of game is needed... again.

Longer != deeper

Longer != more immersive.

SKYRIM is pretty immersive .. no one is going to play it for years.

In fact, i would play MANY MMOs on the market today. However, none of which i will play for more than a few month (may be at most a year), except WOW. WOW is phenomenal holding my attention for more a few years. I don't expect to play it much more though.

Did you ever play early Everquest?  There was a first person view, which after awhile was like seeing through your own eyes (more immersive, even though I prefer 3rd person now so I can see the bling on my character).

The sting of dying made traveling through dangerous zones sort of a rush.  Again, very immersive.

And the time building your character and playing long-term, this drew you in as well, especially the in-game friends and allies.

I think, just like with the AOL chatrooms of old, playing a MMORPG long-term makes you log in, not just to complete a quest, but to see what's new going on and what everyone is up to.  ("GM event going on in RO, you say?  Let's get everyone and head over there.")

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Community is not a reason (for me) to hold onto a boring game. Plus, community is not game dependent. Most of my WOW friends are playing Diablo 3 now. No one says you can't play with the same people in more than 1 game.

Which is a good example of the changes in community type. Community isn't just who you know, its who you don't know. For those who remember say...Vanilla WoW, the difference is night and day. When WoW was new, the same people were around. You knew who the top guilds were, top raid leaders, other players you could either mentor or protege. You heard of people by word of mouth, not from reading leaders boards or forum posts. 

Its not so different from living in the real world, if, for example, you lived in the same community for many years. You end up knowing something about the guy at the end of the street, or maybe even meeting and becoming friends. 

I'm not suggesting anybody play a game that is boring, far from it. I'm merely suggesting that moving on from game to game does not foster online communities, unless we consider (as you have mentioned) services that pull communites together in different ways, ala facebook, battlenet, steam, etc.

Maybe that is the future of online games: whatever developer can successfully foster a community around a variety of games, creating a higher form of permanence than mere "tracks in the sand" within a virtual world?

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Now that's a crazy conclusion to derive from my statement, which was nothing more than pointing out it was stated as fact ( "There definitely is a demographic for this." ) and not saying he was wrong or that it shouldn't be suggested.

Fair enough.   I had let myself overlook the hyperbole.

Originally posted by Paradigm68

Originally posted by Darkmoth

Originally posted by Paradigm68

Sure that is a valid defense, generically, but it misses the point, MMO's by design (originally at least) were supposed to be something you found  fun with your friends for a long period of time. Becuse they were world simulators with communities to build that provided fun beyond mere content. So the point is, if they are designed to appeal to a subscriber for a signficant amount of time, and they're not, then something is wrong. Either they are failing at their goal, or they've changed their goal with their respect towards their expectation of what the player is looking for, without actually coming out and saying it. 

Your comment doesn't really stand up to that. If the first couple of bites of a piece of pizza tasted great but the taste turned to crap before you got to the end of the slice would you shrug it off and say "Well, I enjoyed the first few bites. I'll try another slice."?

Whoa, whoa. There are still people playing SWTOR, a year later. There are still people playing Everquest 1, 13 years later. There are still people playing Anarchy Online, as bad as the graphics are. There are still people playing UO, for goodness sake. By what criteria are you saying these games have failed in their design?

A. Clearly Evertquest and UO are older MMO's that built communities. They are the examples that prove the rule.

B. That SOME people still play SWTOR doesn't mean people in general are still playing. In fact given the drop in subs and incredibly huge server merges indicates a whole lot  of people played for a bit and moved on.

C. A year is too short a time period to look at in the lifecycle of an MMO to determine if people are sticking around.

Ok, so EQ and UO have communities. What about DAOC? City of Heroes? LOTRO? DDO? Champions Online? GW1? All of those games have people who still love them and play them. With the possible exception of DDO, all of them have significant long-term, end-game play. I've heard of people who spend 9000 hours in GW1, that is clearly a long-term commitment.

Let's look at the recent and upcoming crop of MMOs, the ones supposedly designed with the casual player in mind. Rift - arguably more raid-centric than EQ. TERA - a political structure that lets players actually compete to see who runs the world. GW2 - designed from the ground up to make content viable, challenging and replayable from low-level to cap.

These aren't throwaway games any more than the elder crop is. No one can seriously believe the creators of these games expect people to play for 4 months and bail. I see much lamenting over the transitory nature of MMO games, but I'm hard-pressed to find any games that actually are transitory.