Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Vesavius

Further evidence that the F2P model creates a transient non-investing fickle player base.

---

 

Oh, I wish I had a business creating my customers. Tell me the secret please...

 

You know...where is no demand, there is no supply. It does not work vice-versa.

Tell that to Apple.

You are being naive.

Marketing is as much about creating demand as it is meeting it.

Actually, it does. A lot of stuff gets invented and marketed as "you need to have", creating a demand after there is a supply.

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by Harttz

I love F2P because it is basically an "idiot tax" payment model.  I have the self control to play a game and not constantly spend money on stupid cosmetic items so it means those who can't control themselves pay for me.  I used to have friends in WoW who paid to change their name every month or were constantly faction or server transferring their toons and I was just baffled at how they could waste money like that.  So if those people want to pay for my content then I am all for it.  The only time I oppose F2P is when it is pay to win because then it isn't really a game anymore.

WOW is not a F2P or a P2W game. And also it is not a advantage cash shop game... The CS in WOW is only for cosmetics. You cant compare that with a real F2P with a very offensive advantage CS. If you play a game like that without using the CS you will be forced to do terrible boring grinding. And spend more time doing boring things in general. And you will be both less powerful and have terrible gear compared to others that are spending a lot of money. Playing a game like that without paying is a painful waste of time. If you are paying enough to have some fun it is a waste of money instead, IMO. That business model is just bad. For everyone... My choice is to just say "no" and refuse to play games like that.

I think WoW is the worse example of a payment model.

No idea how it is atm, but last time i played was:

- Buy the client to acess the game.

- Pay each month if we want play it.

- Buy the new expansion if we want to acess to new stuff.

- Buy in cash shop if we want "loking cool" stuff.

Please, dont tell me this is OK model.

---

Originally posted by Vesavius

Tell that to Apple.

You are being naive.

Marketing is as much about creating demand as it is meeting it.

---

If you actually believe that Apple did not hit what people wanted and fell in love with but instead made a product and then made people to want it and love it...I am not the naive one here :)

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Po_gg

depends on a lot of things... 

---

 

No. It depends solely on 1 thing - how much you spend on the game.

Also, there are no "many" F2P models, there is 1 model only - no fee upfront.

 

Just stop twisting terms to suit your bias, perception or wishes.

"how much you spend on the game." true, everything is expensive only, when  you spend too much on it

"there is 1 model only - no fee upfront."  well, here i need to argue... and not because i'm twisting terms :)

so you say, wow, aoc, lotro and sto are all have the same model, because they don't have upfront fees.

Only in wow you can play to lvl20 then you have to pay;  in aoc you can choose from only 4 classes, with a lot of restrictions so it's more reasonable to subscribe;  in lotro it's easier to pay but you can play without it;  and finally in sto you don't need to pay at all, you can play it for free.

I don't think they're the same model when we talk about the expensive factor. They all give you different choices and push you towards spending in different ways.

True, you don't have to spend a dime, if you don't want. (in wow's case it's also means stop playing, but hey, at least it was free until it lasted :) ).

Originally posted by Gdemami

---

Originally posted by Vesavius

Tell that to Apple. You are being naive.

Marketing is as much about creating demand as it is meeting it.

---

 

If you actually believe that Apple did not hit what people actually wanted and fell in love with but made a product and then made people to want it and love it...I am not the naive one here :)

OK, fine, you know it all. I have no need to educate you in Marketing 101. Believe what you will.

Do yourself a favour though and Google 'Marketing creating demand' and have a read.

---

Originally posted by Po_gg

so you say, wow, aoc, lotro and sto are all have the same model, because they don't have upfront fees.

---

I agree that the line between trial and F2P may be thin but it is still there. The difference between WoW and F2P titles is that WoW is still based on revenue from regular monthly subscriptions which isn't a case of F2P games.

AoC, LOTRO or STO are all same F2P model, just different implementation.

---

Originally posted by Vesavius

OK, fine, you know it all. I have no need to educate you in Marketing 101. Believe what you will.

Do yourself a favour though and Google 'Marketing creating demand' and have a read.

---

Ah, famous "google it" argument...or rather lack of...

Originally posted by Po_gg

Originally posted by dageeza

Originally posted by Quizzical

There are a huge number of different business models that call themselves "free to play", and they shouldn't all be lumped in together.

/\

This..

Double this...  F2p is just a wide category with a whole bunch of business models, and they are so different (and changing constantly) that it's hard to keep a decent debate over it. Even if you narrow down the topic for only a few games which has similar f2p models, there are still the actual players whit their differencies.

 

Like for the title ("f2p is expensive"), and narrowing it to LotRO (because of Chilliesauce's question about non-restricting games) :

• if you're a former player (vip -> premium) and don't care about pvmp it's totally free to play (if you wanna pvmp, vip is a must...)
• if you're a newcomer, and don't have a problem with grinding, it's free as well
• if you don't like grind, well, then yep, it could be expensive after Lone Lands...

And we could make this list on every single f2p models out there - a very long list would it be :)  what's with EVE, not even a f2p title, but you can play it totally free with plex...

so basically, f2p's are expensive? depends on a lot of things... 

All P2W games are designed around monetizing game mechanics, and this is the one and only underlying design that governs all aspects of the game.  This means that all P2W games are the same when discussing the business model. 

A P2W game with multiple payment options doesn't make it different from any other P2W game. 

Originally posted by Gdemami

AoC, LOTRO or STO are all same F2P model, just different implementation.

For me it's ok, then implementations, not models. I just tried to point out, that these differencies (in implementation :) )  connects with the 'cost' of the game in question, basically that's what defines how expensive the game will be, for the user.

User is a key factor too, if he's willing to pay a lot, then any game will be expensive for him, regardless of the implemetation settings :)

---

Originally posted by Po_gg

For me it's ok, then implementations, not models. I just tried to point out, that these differencies (in implementation :) ) connects with the 'cost' of the game in question, basically that's what defines how expensive the game will be, for the user.

User is a key factor too, if he's willing to pay a lot, then any game will be expensive for him, regardless of the implemetation settings :)

---

I am not sure what you are trying to say...

User is still defining factor, cash shop is the limiting. Some cash shops will allow to spend more if you wish so?

Originally posted by Ocenica

If something is free your either going to wind up paying too much for it, or it's not worth anything.  

 

I have been reading quite a lot about how F2P could replace traditional subs and I'm going to let you guys in on a little secret.  You really don't want that to happen.   It sounds like your going to get to play a game for free, never fork over any cash and just love every second of it.  Sorry, that is NOT going to happen.

 

It has already happend to me, and a majority of MMO players. Research has shown that a MAJORITY of MMO players do NOT pay. The "whales", a small percentage of the players, are footing the bill and I am 100% fine with it.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27581/Study_US_Gamers_Spent_38_Billion_On_MMOs_in_2009.php

And I quote

"the rest, around 25 million (out of 45M) gamers, play MMOs without spending any money."

I agree -- in most FTP games I end up spending about $50 per month to play when I am playing.  Subscription games are much cheaper.  The other issue is a lot of FTP games have you WANTING to spend even more -- There are a lot of people who spend $200, $500, even $1,000+ per month to beat you.  Worst are the games with contests -- be the first to do X -- non-big spenders need not apply.  I actually quit one game that I had started which had a top 5 contest that I was about to get 4th place in but ended up 6th because 2 people decided to spend over $1,000 right before the end just to get ahead of me for a $200 payout.  Note in this game I had only spent $40 and was probably the lowest spender with any chance whatsoever.  I was even in a conversation with one of those people.  He apologized but said he had to do it -- yeah. 

Originally posted by Gdemami

Unless you are irresponsible being, do not drag other people into it. No one else is responsible for your addiction but you.

Then you might have a wrong idea of addiction, addiction is caused by the product, not by the consumer, that is why they are usualy taken as being "bad".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction

Thinking all f2p model are awsome and are all but adictive is quiet ridiculous honestly, most of modern mmo have pushed the addictive factor to no end f2p or sub model is honestly to put in the same bag at this point, not being aware or straight up denying this is just strange honestly.

Originally posted by Requiamer

Originally posted by Gdemami

Unless you are irresponsible being, do not drag other people into it. No one else is responsible for your addiction but you.

Then you might have a wrong idea of addiction, addiction is caused by the product, not by the consumer, that is why they are usualy taken as being "bad".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction

 

Thinking all f2p model are awsome and are all but adictive is quiet ridiculous honestly, most of modern mmo have pushed the addictive factor to no end f2p or sub model is honestly to put in the same bag at this point, not being aware or straight up denying this is just strange honestly.

 

 Actually that would be wrong.  According to the most recent neurbiology studies and evolutionary studies in adicitno, an "addiction" is the result of receptor disregulation. 

Also most people will not become addicted to any one substance.  Cocaine and heroine only have approximately a 20% addiction rate, marijuana 4%, Alcohol has a near 100% rate because it can act upon approximately 8 different receptors. 

So to clarify it is only an addiction if a receptor is disregulating, and in hard drugs only 20% or less will have a receptor disregulating.  The rest is an abuse, which is still damaging but is not an addiction. 

Therefore the product does not cause an addiction in most people unless there is allready a potential for a disregulation (which in that case the product did cause it), or the receptor is allready disregulating (the product did not cause it).

MMO"s would be an abuse, not an addiction.  There is no MMO receptor.  And, before people say you can be addicted to anything, no you can't.  You can abuse anything but an addiction needs a disregulated receptor.  And no you cannot, according again to neurobiology studies, become addicted to your own endorphines.  Adrenaline junkes may be an abuse, but is not a disregulation.

People that are not involved in addiction research or up to current standards should not discuss what it is/is not or is caused by.  It's just a spread of ignorance

---

Originally posted by Requiamer

Then you might have a wrong idea of addiction, addiction is caused by the product, not by the consumer, that is why they are usualy taken as being "bad".

---

Erm no.

Addiction is a state, there is no implication about a cause.

---

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

People that are not involved in addiction research or up to current standards should not discuss what it is/is not or is caused by.  It's just a spread of ignorance

---

And yet it is you bringing up DSM and neurobiology...you could not ridicule yourself more.

Pseudo-sciences are pseudo-science, no serious business there.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

People that are not involved in addiction research or up to current standards should not discuss what it is/is not or is caused by.  It's just a spread of ignorance

---

 

And yet it is you bringing up DSM and neurobiology...you could not ridicule yourself more.

Pseudo-sciences are pseudo-science, no serious business there.

 Neurobiology is not a pseudoscience.  The DSM is not a science, it is a collection of the current methods and diagnostic criteria.

Receptors, neurotransmitters and there effects are both measurable and observable.

As I said unless you are in the field and up to date, discussing 20 year old out of date theories on boards is pointless. 

There is no one set of "F2P" models. Every company, every game has their own ideal and description of what "F2P" actually means. No argument can cover them all. And really, it boils down to what each person defines as a good deal vs not.

F2P is fine if you play casually. Not in terms of the amount of time played but in terms of competitiveness. I you are too competitive and you just have to win, either in PvP or in gearing up for PvE then you may have a difficult time with F2P. But if you can just play the game and let it come at you at its natural progesssion for what ever amount of effort you choose to put in then you can easily get away with never paying a cent and simply enjoy the game for what it offers for free.