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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » First of all,no lvls no class al all

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82 posts found
  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

7/02/12 3:23:03 AM#21
Originally posted by freegames

Playing Borderlands and saying this is leveling done right!!

Make skills automatically level with xp as well.

The grinding later on is totally up to you.

I had a lot of fun playing Borderlands my first run through, but I hated how everything just scaled with you on the second run. It kind of made leveling pointless. Not to mention that it took a million bullets to kill anything towards the end. I'm not sure that I like levels in shooters. I feel that when numbers get involved with shooting people, it takes some the visceral feeling out of it. Like, if I shoot someone in the head with a shotgun at point blank, I expect one thing to happen... for their head to explode, not have to take 10 more shots. Like I said, I had a lot of fun doing coop on the first run, but I'm still waiting to hear more about the second one before I commit to a purchase.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5627

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/02/12 5:07:48 AM#22
Originally posted by blognorg
Originally posted by freegames
 

I had a lot of fun playing Borderlands my first run through, but I hated how everything just scaled with you on the second run. It kind of made leveling pointless. Not to mention that it took a million bullets to kill anything towards the end. I'm not sure that I like levels in shooters. I feel that when numbers get involved with shooting people, it takes some the visceral feeling out of it. Like, if I shoot someone in the head with a shotgun at point blank, I expect one thing to happen... for their head to explode, not have to take 10 more shots. Like I said, I had a lot of fun doing coop on the first run, but I'm still waiting to hear more about the second one before I commit to a purchase.

I get irritated too when I need to hit muliple headshots before some trash mob goes down. Thats the wrong kind of difficulty, I think.

It is funny how we accept you have to hit a baddie multiple times with a melee weapon until he goes down. Then when we shoot em in the head everyone expects them to die right away. Is it Hollywood? Perhaps this is a topic for another thread.

In the end just one punch to the face can kill you. We are very fragile.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/02/12 5:20:01 AM#23
Originally posted by dreamscaper

Here's an idea I was pondering a few nights ago.

Progression Concept

There are no levels, no classes. You have an Eve-like skills list, except that instead of being time-based you buy the skills with a set number of skill points. These skill points are gained not from killing anything, but by fleshing out your achievement book (think WoW's achievement system, where the achievement points directly translate into skill points). You get progression that isn't tied to archaic leveling systems, but instead tied directly to experiencing as much of the game content as possible.

Your reward type and player type aren't matched. In general, the powergamer is going to loathe having to do an assortment of banal tasks to get the points he needs for character progression, and the farmville-style achiever often enjoys doing those tasks but prefers rewards more related to customization than to progression (overlapping but distinctly different areas).

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19277

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/02/12 5:46:11 AM#24
Originally posted by Robokapp

EVE does it well.

 

there's the character. he can climb in any ship he learns, he can use any weapons he learns.

 

if you're bad enough to create a missile-shooting logistics ship...that's on you. its possible if you want, just retarded.

 

similarly...why cant a human put down the shiled, grab a staff and be a mage?

Because they lack the years of training it would take to master magery?

That's the normal premise behind classes, that it takes training and practice to be good at something, and I have no objection to this as long as a player doing so has to go through a lengthy training process to master it. (and their skills in their previous profession should probably degrade some as well.)

I remember WOW did something like this back in the early days, your had skill points in each weapon type, and I recall switching weapons on my higher level Pally and having to go back to the newbie lands to wack mobs to get it skilled up enough to be useful.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  ghost047

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/05
Posts: 608

Why worry about life, you won''t survive it anyway!

7/02/12 6:57:23 AM#25
Originally posted by dreamscaper

Here's an idea I was pondering a few nights ago.

 

Progression Concept

There are no levels, no classes. You have an Eve-like skills list, except that instead of being time-based you buy the skills with a set number of skill points. These skill points are gained not from killing anything, but by fleshing out your achievement book (think WoW's achievement system, where the achievement points directly translate into skill points). You get progression that isn't tied to archaic leveling systems, but instead tied directly to experiencing as much of the game content as possible.

That doesn't sound different than any themepark out there, instead of quest, it's achievement, same thing to me. Instead of walking to a quest hub, you check your achievement list and you go where the achievement is. A little like DDO, you get XP for completing the quest and not by killing stuff.

Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!

  ghost047

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/05
Posts: 608

Why worry about life, you won''t survive it anyway!

7/02/12 7:01:13 AM#26

Level vs Skill, it's still almost the same, you have a progression bar, you fill it and you gain points. You can't go everywhere in the world because if you don't have enough Skill point, you're going to get your a** kick. Also, instead of have level attach to your character, it's attach to your gear.

Get a life you freaking Gamer.....no no, you don't understand, I'm a Gamer, I have many lives!!

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

7/02/12 7:24:25 AM#27

i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

of course it would be first person as well, so you could actually see these cues on your characters hands and your enemies faces and bodies.

they could atleast try this in a elder scrolls type single player game, but i think it would work fine in a mmo as well.

imagine no ui..........

 

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/02/12 8:14:12 AM#28
Originally posted by rungard

i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

Any skill-based MMO

it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

Second Life, Kaneva

it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

Furcadia, Sociolotron, Puzzle Pirates.

i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

Shadowbane.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Emrendil

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 200

7/02/12 8:20:22 AM#29
Originally posted by dreamscaper
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Are people against classes or are they against uni-dimensional roles?

Are people against levels or are they against a game that plays the same regardless of level and only changes due to the RNG?.

 

I read this but then I also read people complaining that if all classes can play all roles at the same time they lose identity.

I read this but then I also read people complaining that without a gear/stat progression the game loses interest.

 

Lets not fool ourselves, eveb single player games have levels, even shooters have levels. Your character might not change but you acquire more weapons and/or more difficult enemies appear as you progress the game. Lookat RTS games, the campaign has levels and for PvP you have ranking/elos.

 

The problem of the levels in MMORPGs is the fact the game doesn't become any different/challenging as you level - it is exactly the same with different gear/higher stats.

Similar thing to classes - they play similarly (unless they acquire some really powerful skills).

 

This is a good point. I like classes, and I like roles; what I don't like is the arbitrary nature of levels in most games. The vast majority of MMORPGs treat levels as a restraint rather than as a gauge like they should. What I mean by this is that suppose there is this monster in part of an area that is 10-15 levels above me. In most games, the enemy is difficult because if I'm below it's level, my damage, resistance, etc are all artifically affected by the level difference. What I'd like is for the level itself to be meaningless beyond a gauge. If I have an extremely well-equipped and well-played character, taking down that higher level enemy should be possible.

 

The root of the problems is that developers have started using levels to simulate progression without any actual progression taking place. A level 90 character in WoW goes through less actual character progression than a level 20 character in D&D. This is what it seems like I don't like classes and levels - not because of the features themselves, but how they're being abused by developers.

Same here. I like classes but don't care about levels. They can just get rid of them. Why can't they make an MMO, where you can just go straight to the "endgame" stuff. You would only do quests for better gear and gold.

  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

7/02/12 11:17:40 AM#30
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by blognorg
Originally posted by freegames
 

I had a lot of fun playing Borderlands my first run through, but I hated how everything just scaled with you on the second run. It kind of made leveling pointless. Not to mention that it took a million bullets to kill anything towards the end. I'm not sure that I like levels in shooters. I feel that when numbers get involved with shooting people, it takes some the visceral feeling out of it. Like, if I shoot someone in the head with a shotgun at point blank, I expect one thing to happen... for their head to explode, not have to take 10 more shots. Like I said, I had a lot of fun doing coop on the first run, but I'm still waiting to hear more about the second one before I commit to a purchase.

I get irritated too when I need to hit muliple headshots before some trash mob goes down. Thats the wrong kind of difficulty, I think.

It is funny how we accept you have to hit a baddie multiple times with a melee weapon until he goes down. Then when we shoot em in the head everyone expects them to die right away. Is it Hollywood? Perhaps this is a topic for another thread.

In the end just one punch to the face can kill you. We are very fragile.

Haha. yeah, I've had the same thought. The way I explained to myself is that guns in first person perspective is a lot more visceral than what we've been conditioned to expect from fantasy swordplay. A few years ago I had my brother play Fallout 3. He's been a fantasy enthusiast all is his life (with D&D and so on), so he's pretty comfortable with the idea of hit points and all that. However, he didn't like it because when he shot a guy in the face from two feet out, the enemy just recoiled a little and kept coming at him. I think another thing is that guns are a little more connected our reality, and it's a little harder to suspend the disbelief.

  Terranah

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3618

7/02/12 11:37:11 AM#31

There are many types of content that can have nothing to do with levels and can keep people entertained.  For one, the social game, which should not be artificial feeling (LFG) or suddently thrust on the player at mid or end game.  The social game should be part of the game's design, interwoven throughout the game's interdependent aspects.  Making friends, developing a reputation, gathering the power or the ability to influence others, waging war, forging alliances, etc.  There are many social games that have nothing to do with levels.

 

Things which apply to the obsessive compulsive tendencies, like decorating, collecting, exploring to find rare opportunities.  I spent untold hours in my house in precu swg decorating, organizing, cleaning.  LOL.  I spent more time on my virtual house than my real one.

 

Some people like to be different.  They don't care if they are the most powerful, they care if they are the most unique.  So having the ability to individualize your appearance and your skill set.  Having the ability to explore your character and tinker with skills and learn knew ones or drop ones you don't like and go in a different direction.  Freedom to experiment, to be unique....freedom to excel or freedom to fail.

 

But it's much easier to design a themepark style game versus a sandbox.  I could design a themepark game in a day because it's very formulaic.  But with sandbox design, there are many things to consider.  It's easy to through out suggestions but to consider all the permutations and interactions is very complex.  It might take a month or so to come up with a good design, and even then you would need some brainstorming sessions with other gamers.  Sandbox is much more complex to design in my opinion, which is why you don't see any AAA sandbox.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/02/12 11:53:08 AM#32
Originally posted by Terranah

There are many types of content that can have nothing to do with levels and can keep people entertained.  For one, the social game, which should not be artificial feeling (LFG) or suddently thrust on the player at mid or end game.  The social game should be part of the game's design, interwoven throughout the game's interdependent aspects.  Making friends, developing a reputation, gathering the power or the ability to influence others, waging war, forging alliances, etc.  There are many social games that have nothing to do with levels.

 

Things which apply to the obsessive compulsive tendencies, like decorating, collecting, exploring to find rare opportunities.  I spent untold hours in my house in precu swg decorating, organizing, cleaning.  LOL.  I spent more time on my virtual house than my real one.

 

Some people like to be different.  They don't care if they are the most powerful, they care if they are the most unique.  So having the ability to individualize your appearance and your skill set.  Having the ability to explore your character and tinker with skills and learn knew ones or drop ones you don't like and go in a different direction.  Freedom to experiment, to be unique....freedom to excel or freedom to fail.

 

But it's much easier to design a themepark style game versus a sandbox.  I could design a themepark game in a day because it's very formulaic.  But with sandbox design, there are many things to consider.  It's easy to through out suggestions but to consider all the permutations and interactions is very complex.  It might take a month or so to come up with a good design, and even then you would need some brainstorming sessions with other gamers.  Sandbox is much more complex to design in my opinion, which is why you don't see any AAA sandbox.


*subscribes to Terranah's newsletter*

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7236

7/02/12 12:08:59 PM#33


Originally posted by terrant

Go ahead and tell me EVE has no classes

EVE does not have classes.

You got mixed up couple things here. The closest description of a class in EVE would be a ship you fly, not skills you have trained. It is the ship and equipment making you to perform the role(class), not skill you have trained.


One of the determining attribute of class system is that they are definite. Nothing like that applies to EVE either.


Progression does not necessarily produce levels. This is just false and absurd statement.

I agree on your edit part. It seems it is mostly the implementation that cause people issues but then again, that isn't as much about levels/progression at the end of the dy but overall game design.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

7/02/12 1:07:21 PM#34
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by rungard

i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

Any skill-based MMO

it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

Second Life, Kaneva

it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

Furcadia, Sociolotron, Puzzle Pirates.

i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

Shadowbane.

 

 got one that combines them all in a fantasy setting?

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/02/12 1:31:48 PM#35

A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes. When they came about they were very innovative. However, in the days of pen and paper the idea of 'maxing your character' was insanity and would take many years and many hours of dedication to do fairly.

In mondern times the entire dynamic has changed because of how quickly we 'max' how often 'levels' happen so it feels rather dull. That all said, Classes, and Levels are both antiquated.

The future is skill based gaming. Its likely what Gary Gayx should have done in the first place but hey, he invited the entire genre so lets give him credit!

 

Thank you.

 

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/02/12 1:35:21 PM#36
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by rungard

i would like to see only visual levels. For instance you need fire resistance to go to a lava cave, or you need to be able to fly to get to an air castle.

the difference i see is that you could do these things yourself, or you could have freinds  help you out.

i even see being able to see in the dark as a level of sorts.

Any skill-based MMO

it would be refreshing that there were no levels. You just play in the world.

Second Life, Kaneva

it would be nice  to have a minimal stats game. It would attract a good mature audience.

Furcadia, Sociolotron, Puzzle Pirates.

i also like the idea of visual stats, where if you cant show it visually on a character you simply dont use it. strength is muscles, magic is an aura, even your hitpoints is represented by a beating heart, and your magic represented by your chracters skin  (age).

Shadowbane.

 

 got one that combines them all in a fantasy setting?

I want innovation! I want change! I want something different! I want it in a sword and sorcery fantasy setting... and it better have an auction house... and no stylized artwork... and it better allow me to choose my skills, but better not let me see a fireball casting warrior or mage in plate. I don't want devs to reinvent the wheel, just to make what I like new and fun.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  KingGator

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

7/02/12 1:37:49 PM#37
Originally posted by Heinz130

LEVELS

lvls bring us to one of major problems of the old mmos,end game

A game that adopt lvls char progress system requires the player to actly reach the max lvl to enjoy all aspects of the game,being the lvling path a waste of time frenetic questing,instancing untill u reach the max lvl and starts the real game

lvl is a old char progression made for table rpgs,no point in adopt it for eletronic games of any kind

CLASSES

Its just a way to push players to keep playing boring silly games after they reach the end game to find its also boring like the rest of the game

Major problem of class based system is the UNBALANCE btw classes,i was in that hell for over 4 years back in my wow-nerf-disnerf days

EVE and TSW are the most close to reasonable char progression systens

You should just play an fps game then, levels and classes are part of any good mmorpg. Proof? Find me one that succeeded without them.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

7/02/12 1:39:02 PM#38
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes.

Levels were flawed since the initial design. It's why campaigns came with prerolled characters and why they have level ranges. Even with 12-14 levels, you still had level disparity to contend with when you'd get a player that insisted on using his character despite it being too high or too low.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

7/02/12 1:44:49 PM#39
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes.

Levels were flawed since the initial design. It's why campaigns came with prerolled characters and why they have level ranges. Even with 12-14 levels, you still had level disparity to contend with when you'd get a player that insisted on using his character despite it being too high or too low.

That doesnt make any sense.

If someone was level 15 should they have less skill if they where in a party of campagin tht was 5? sure it makes things a pain but think about it. If I have 10 years experience as a fighter why would I want my skills limited just because I am out with a bunch of guys just out of fighter school?

That said, skill based just makes more sense now that the genre has matured.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5627

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/02/12 2:01:03 PM#40
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

A little history in this subject can add perspective. There isnt anything inhertly 'bad' about levels or classes.

Levels were flawed since the initial design. It's why campaigns came with prerolled characters and why they have level ranges. Even with 12-14 levels, you still had level disparity to contend with when you'd get a player that insisted on using his character despite it being too high or too low.

No levels not "flawed". Its something to look forward to - and back once you're there. Plus its very addictive. Some name dropping here and there an appearance from a legendary character showing off his/her power. They make nice moments in RPGs both tabletop and PC.

I remember using level disparity as a penalty when I was a DM: If your character died I let you roll another one level behind the others. Sort of put some weight on staying alive. That is if the players didn't have much emotional attachment to their character and rerolling was a non-issue.

Still I made sure no-one was behind, or ahead, more than one level. Otherwise it would've made designing encounters harder because you had to come up with something worthwhile for everyone to do. Level 20s fighting a dragon while the lone 1st level guy, the group mascot, stays back and creates shadowpuppets to amuse himself. Not the ideal encounter, is it?

If levels are flawed then every classless, level-less game is flawed because they have little to look forward to - not to mention "dinging" is not nearly as satisfying.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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