LEVELS

lvls bring us to one of major problems of the old mmos,end game

A game that adopt lvls char progress system requires the player to actly reach the max lvl to enjoy all aspects of the game,being the lvling path a waste of time frenetic questing,instancing untill u reach the max lvl and starts the real game

lvl is a old char progression made for table rpgs,no point in adopt it for eletronic games of any kind

CLASSES

Its just a way to push players to keep playing boring silly games after they reach the end game to find its also boring like the rest of the game

Major problem of class based system is the UNBALANCE btw classes,i was in that hell for over 4 years back in my wow-nerf-disnerf days

EVE and TSW are the most close to reasonable char progression systens

Originally posted by Heinz130

LEVELS

lvls bring us to one of major problems of the old mmos,end game

A game that adopt lvls char progress system requires the player to actly reach the max lvl to enjoy all aspects of the game,being the lvling path a waste of time frenetic questing,instancing untill u reach the max lvl and starts the real game

lvl is a old char progression made for table rpgs,no point in adopt it for eletronic games of any kind

CLASSES

Its just a way to push players to keep playing boring silly games after they reach the end game to find its also boring like the rest of the game

Major problem of class based system is the UNBALANCE btw classes,i was in that hell for over 4 years back in my wow-nerf-disnerf days

EVE and TSW are the most close to reasonable char progression systens

Well I agree to an extent, I like the fact that in skill base progression there is usually less restricted areas (you dont have to be *this* level to be in *this* area). The problem is in skill progression games you have players maxing out the same skills to be viable in PvP... there needs to be more variety.

I enjoy leveling, I like the sense of progression.   Starting at max level holds little appeal for me.

I don't care about balance at all, as I am a purely PvE player.   As long as every class has some cool, interesting powers and tactics, it's all good.    I can accept that PvP needs to be balanced, just don't mess with PvE for PvP sake.   Just make PvP have different powers or mechanics.

I find that a lot of people who are concerned about PvE balance (not centering out the OP), are competitive, watch top dps lists, that sort of thing.   Again, I don't care.   If the team completes the mission/downs the boss, we all win.   If not, we all lose.

i agree up to a point, class based game play isn't as interesting or as open as skill based/point based systems.

the problem with skill/point based systems is that you need something other than just fighting or limited trade skilling, so not to make it all cookie cutter.

this of course doesn't always work.  take UO for instance, dispite it having a skill based system, people became nothing but battle mages shooting wall of fire and hitting each other with poleaxes.(does that make me really dated bringing that up? )

the biggest reason devs pick class based systems is balance, you can mold a class into a role, that would other wise not work in a skill system.

it is nearly impossible to balance a sklll system with lots of skills.  some will be better combined than others but it will always change in ways that the devs do not forsee

sure class based ones can have that happen, but it is easier to fix.

edit: the OP really thinks class based is more unbalanced? what world is that, i'd like to visit it.

Originally posted by Kuppa
So....you have any ideas?

remove classes and allow players to pick whatever skills, armor, weapons they like. make a plate armored mage that dual wields axes.

remove the exponential growth in power that occurs from levelling by removing levels completely. as you play the game you might come across some nice versions of skills and items which provide a minor bonuses. a veteran player should have maybe ~25% more hp and damage than a newer player acquired from gear/abiltiies. a veteran should be good because he is good at playing the game not because he grinded for longer...

add item decay so if u play like a derp you wont be able to replace your 1337 items and you will have to settle for something mediocre when the time comes to replace your worn out gear.  item decay also allows the game to have a proper economy where items are destroyed so there is demand for new items and crafting is useful. 

Here's an idea I was pondering a few nights ago.

Progression Concept

There are no levels, no classes. You have an Eve-like skills list, except that instead of being time-based you buy the skills with a set number of skill points. These skill points are gained not from killing anything, but by fleshing out your achievement book (think WoW's achievement system, where the achievement points directly translate into skill points). You get progression that isn't tied to archaic leveling systems, but instead tied directly to experiencing as much of the game content as possible.

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Kuppa
So....you have any ideas?

remove classes and allow players to pick whatever skills, armor, weapons they like. make a plate armored mage that dual wields axes.

 

remove the exponential growth in power that occurs from levelling by removing levels completely. as you play the game you might come across some nice versions of skills and items which provide a minor bonuses. a veteran player should have maybe ~25% more hp and damage than a newer player acquired from gear/abiltiies. a veteran should be good because he is good at playing the game not because he grinded for longer...

 

add item decay so if u play like a derp you wont be able to replace your 1337 items and you will have to settle for something mediocre when the time comes to replace your worn out gear.  item decay also allows the game to have a proper economy where items are destroyed so there is demand for new items and crafting is useful. 

 

 

Funny thing about games is gamers.

In a classless system, eventually, a few smart people will realize certain skill/weapon loadouts are optimal for certain situations, and they'll develop templated for others to follow that go along the same lines. In other words. In a game with no classes, they will make some.

Go ahead and tell me EVE has no classes, and I'll point you to sites that give you skill loadouts for whatever you want to do that everyone falls carbon copy. You have MUCH more freedom and you don't have to follow things 100%...but that's no different than a warrior in wow putting a talent point in an optional  talent. A tackler in EVE is still a tackler, even if he puts points in...drones or something.

Ditto goes for levels...as long as there is progression of ANY sort, there's levels. whether you're a level 85 warrior or a 8.5 billion skill point hauler, you have a level. You just don't think of it as such.

The only way to get a level-less, class-less game is to remove all progression, and any semblance of choice between characters.  Basically, an FPS.  And not even then, sometimes.

EDIT: Thought: I get the feeling reading some of these posts the problem isn't so much with levels/classes, but the way they are implemented. The poster before me suggests tying skill points to a achievement system, for instance. Really, that's just levels of a different color. But maybe getting away from the pen-and-paper xexperience point systme is what people want more than a truly level-less game. Thoughts?

Originally posted by bishbosh

remove the exponential growth in power that occurs from levelling by removing levels completely. as you play the game you might come across some nice versions of skills and items which provide a minor bonuses. a veteran player should have maybe ~25% more hp and damage than a newer player acquired from gear/abiltiies. a veteran should be good because he is good at playing the game not because he grinded for longer...

 

Is "exponential growth" turning into one of those phrases that everyone uses without knowing the meaning? If any game featured exponential growth in power, characters would have stats in the trillions by the mid levels. The rate of growth is actually nothing like that; each level requires more experience than the last.

And in any case, rate of growth can be changed without taking away levels altogether. It is actually much easier to control how fast characters gain power if you use levels rather than a skill-based system.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by bishbosh

remove the exponential growth in power that occurs from levelling by removing levels completely. as you play the game you might come across some nice versions of skills and items which provide a minor bonuses. a veteran player should have maybe ~25% more hp and damage than a newer player acquired from gear/abiltiies. a veteran should be good because he is good at playing the game not because he grinded for longer...

 

Is "exponential growth" turning into one of those phrases that everyone uses without knowing the meaning? If any game featured exponential growth in power, characters would have stats in the trillions by the mid levels. The rate of growth is actually nothing like that; each level requires more experience than the last.

And in any case, rate of growth can be changed without taking away levels altogether. It is actually much easier to control how fast characters gain power if you use levels rather than a skill-based system.

i know what exponential growth is. i think you are just being anal here. in most games your stats do not grow linearly every level. it is pretty obvious that power vs level probably does not fit an a^x equation exactly, we are just approximating here...  it is fairly well known that in most mmorpgs get more power each level up compared to the last. 

dont get ur panties in a bunch, im pretty sure people know what exponential growth is... they are just approximating. it is a hell lot simpler to say exponential growth rather than try explaining how you get more power per level the higher your level is.

just take note in this imaginary graph i was talking about, level not time is on the x axis....

Originally posted by dreamscaper

Here's an idea I was pondering a few nights ago.

 

Progression Concept

There are no levels, no classes. You have an Eve-like skills list, except that instead of being time-based you buy the skills with a set number of skill points. These skill points are gained not from killing anything, but by fleshing out your achievement book (think WoW's achievement system, where the achievement points directly translate into skill points). You get progression that isn't tied to archaic leveling systems, but instead tied directly to experiencing as much of the game content as possible.

Two Worlds 2 actually did that. It used it as a supplementary way to get skill points, though.

Originally posted by Truelevel

Originally posted by Heinz130

LEVELS

lvls bring us to one of major problems of the old mmos,end game

A game that adopt lvls char progress system requires the player to actly reach the max lvl to enjoy all aspects of the game,being the lvling path a waste of time frenetic questing,instancing untill u reach the max lvl and starts the real game

lvl is a old char progression made for table rpgs,no point in adopt it for eletronic games of any kind

CLASSES

Its just a way to push players to keep playing boring silly games after they reach the end game to find its also boring like the rest of the game

Major problem of class based system is the UNBALANCE btw classes,i was in that hell for over 4 years back in my wow-nerf-disnerf days

EVE and TSW are the most close to reasonable char progression systens

Well I agree to an extent, I like the fact that in skill base progression there is usually less restricted areas (you dont have to be *this* level to be in *this* area). The problem is in skill progression games you have players maxing out the same skills to be viable in PvP... there needs to be more variety.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by bishbosh

Originally posted by Kuppa
So....you have any ideas?

remove classes and allow players to pick whatever skills, armor, weapons they like. make a plate armored mage that dual wields axes.

 

remove the exponential growth in power that occurs from levelling by removing levels completely. as you play the game you might come across some nice versions of skills and items which provide a minor bonuses. a veteran player should have maybe ~25% more hp and damage than a newer player acquired from gear/abiltiies. a veteran should be good because he is good at playing the game not because he grinded for longer...

 

add item decay so if u play like a derp you wont be able to replace your 1337 items and you will have to settle for something mediocre when the time comes to replace your worn out gear.  item decay also allows the game to have a proper economy where items are destroyed so there is demand for new items and crafting is useful. 

 

 

Funny thing about games is gamers.

 

In a classless system, eventually, a few smart people will realize certain skill/weapon loadouts are optimal for certain situations, and they'll develop templated for others to follow that go along the same lines. In other words. In a game with no classes, they will make some.

 

Go ahead and tell me EVE has no classes, and I'll point you to sites that give you skill loadouts for whatever you want to do that everyone falls carbon copy. You have MUCH more freedom and you don't have to follow things 100%...but that's no different than a warrior in wow putting a talent point in an optional  talent. A tackler in EVE is still a tackler, even if he puts points in...drones or something.

 

 

issue here is balance, not the classless system.  your argument is common one that ive seen applied to defend developers that release freedom resitricting class systems.  the argument is that there is no point giving players freedom because people will figure out the best builds for different situations. the problem here is poor balance and lack of dynamic gameplay elements that create random situations. the classless system is not the cause of this.

even if the a classless system is unbalanced there is still the option to run a suboptimal build because you feel like it. also most players dont really care about optimal builds. you are probably talking about the people on the forums which generally represents a small percentage of players that tend to be fairly into the game.

also i think a classless system is best paired with aiming action combat like tera or darkfall. takes the pressure of the balancing team by adding another element that can effect the outcome of combat ie. player skill.

i think another advantage of the classless system is people will be less mad if you fck up the game balance. they will still be mad though.

Originally posted by dreamscaper

Here's an idea I was pondering a few nights ago.

 

Progression Concept

There are no levels, no classes. You have an Eve-like skills list, except that instead of being time-based you buy the skills with a set number of skill points. These skill points are gained not from killing anything, but by fleshing out your achievement book (think WoW's achievement system, where the achievement points directly translate into skill points). You get progression that isn't tied to archaic leveling systems, but instead tied directly to experiencing as much of the game content as possible.

Good idea, I'd like that.

(I don't know WoW's achievement system but I assume that LotRO's system that I know is similar. )

EVE does it well.

there's the character. he can climb in any ship he learns, he can use any weapons he learns.

if you're bad enough to create a missile-shooting logistics ship...that's on you. its possible if you want, just retarded.

similarly...why cant a human put down the shiled, grab a staff and be a mage?

Originally posted by bishbosh

issue here is balance, not the classless system.  your argument is common one that ive seen applied to defend developers that release freedom resitricting class systems.  the argument is that there is no point giving players freedom because people will figure out the best builds for different situations. the problem here is poor balance and lack of dynamic gameplay elements that create random situations. the classless system is not the cause of this.

even if the a classless system is unbalanced there is still the option to run a suboptimal build because you feel like it. also most players dont really care about optimal builds. you are probably talking about the people on the forums which generally represents a small percentage of players that tend to be fairly into the game.

also i think a classless system is best paired with aiming action combat like tera or darkfall. takes the pressure of the balancing team by adding another element that can effect the outcome of combat ie. player skill.

i think another advantage of the classless system is people will be less mad if you fck up the game balance. they will still be mad though.

I'm not defending "traditional, class-based  games" so much as pointing out there's really no such thing as a classless one. As soon as you acquire a set of skills designed to fulfill a role, you have a class.

What bothers me is that peopl immediately assume that a game like EVE or TSW has no classes and no levles, and is therefore better. They have far MORE classes and levels. And more freedom. But players still create classes for themselves, and skill create tiers in their head to indicate progress. That's not to say I don't mind seeing more games like that come out. I think it would be great. Call a spade a spade, that's all.

I will agree with you however that the real issue is not the lack of or existence of classes, it's the way they are designed and implemented and balanced versus content. 

Are people against classes or are they against uni-dimensional roles?

Are people against levels or are they against a game that plays the same regardless of level and only changes due to the RNG?.

I read this but then I also read people complaining that if all classes can play all roles at the same time they lose identity.

I read this but then I also read people complaining that without a gear/stat progression the game loses interest.

Lets not fool ourselves, eveb single player games have levels, even shooters have levels. Your character might not change but you acquire more weapons and/or more difficult enemies appear as you progress the game. Lookat RTS games, the campaign has levels and for PvP you have ranking/elos.

The problem of the levels in MMORPGs is the fact the game doesn't become any different/challenging as you level - it is exactly the same with different gear/higher stats.

Similar thing to classes - they play similarly (unless they acquire some really powerful skills).

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Are people against classes or are they against uni-dimensional roles?

Are people against levels or are they against a game that plays the same regardless of level and only changes due to the RNG?.

 

I read this but then I also read people complaining that if all classes can play all roles at the same time they lose identity.

I read this but then I also read people complaining that without a gear/stat progression the game loses interest.

 

Lets not fool ourselves, eveb single player games have levels, even shooters have levels. Your character might not change but you acquire more weapons and/or more difficult enemies appear as you progress the game. Lookat RTS games, the campaign has levels and for PvP you have ranking/elos.

 

The problem of the levels in MMORPGs is the fact the game doesn't become any different/challenging as you level - it is exactly the same with different gear/higher stats.

Similar thing to classes - they play similarly (unless they acquire some really powerful skills).

This is a good point. I like classes, and I like roles; what I don't like is the arbitrary nature of levels in most games. The vast majority of MMORPGs treat levels as a restraint rather than as a gauge like they should. What I mean by this is that suppose there is this monster in part of an area that is 10-15 levels above me. In most games, the enemy is difficult because if I'm below it's level, my damage, resistance, etc are all artifically affected by the level difference. What I'd like is for the level itself to be meaningless beyond a gauge. If I have an extremely well-equipped and well-played character, taking down that higher level enemy should be possible.

The root of the problems is that developers have started using levels to simulate progression without any actual progression taking place. A level 90 character in WoW goes through less actual character progression than a level 20 character in D&D. This is what it seems like I don't like classes and levels - not because of the features themselves, but how they're being abused by developers.

Originally posted by demongoat

this of course doesn't always work.  take UO for instance, dispite it having a skill based system, people became nothing but battle mages shooting wall of fire and hitting each other with poleaxes.(does that make me really dated bringing that up? )

That's just in PVP though and UO is a much, MUCH different game today and a dying one if that.. I did nothing but craft in UO for several years without doing ANY PvP till I got into roleplaying and I roleplayed as a Covian Guardsman on Europa for several years (still do..)

That's what MMO's are missing these days.. An MMO requires massive RP and social aspects so that the community can interact on a daily basis, Ultima Onlines focus wasn't just on PVP or PVE, it was neither.. It was created as a social experiment(facebook), players now and days want simulators, they want to be able to do things inside the game that they can do in real life.. But I also feel it is wiser to take realistic approaches to such games..

In the RP community I was involved in with UO, restricted ourselves and ignored most of the game mechanics to make it more fun and boy did it work for several years and if you want proof look here..  http://www.uoforums.com/memory-box-nostalgia-central/

Playing Borderlands and saying this is leveling done right!!

Make skills automatically level with xp as well.

The grinding later on is totally up to you.