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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PVP is actually the core of any REAL mmorpg

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66 posts found
  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

6/30/12 10:44:37 AM#21

By icreasing the supply of something, such as boar hides, you have aided those who need that something. That is cooperative play.

 

In every game I have played those boars respawn pretty quickly, specifically to reduce the impact of one player's farming on another.

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Loktofeit

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Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

6/30/12 12:05:29 PM#22

PVP and player interaction are not one in the same. PVP is a subset of player interaction. You also have co-operative/collaborative and social interaction. ATITD is an example of co-operative/collaborative being the primary player interaction, and Furcadia is an example of socializing being the primary player interaction. PVP can be the core of an MMO, but it definitely not the only core, even in virtual worlds that focus on player interaction. 

  Beiloch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/01/12
Posts: 74

6/30/12 12:11:54 PM#23

"PVP is actually the core of any REAL mmorpg"

No.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2099

6/30/12 1:22:26 PM#24

You forgot to write It's my Opinion.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  Emrendil

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/06/12
Posts: 200

6/30/12 2:26:51 PM#25
Originally posted by Axehilt

Complete nonsense.

The core of RPG systems since the dawn of RPGs has been, and will always be PVE.

 

Yep. PvP is only a part of MMORPG genre, not the core.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

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6/30/12 4:10:58 PM#26
Originally posted by Adoni

I'm going disagree and leave it at that.

Seems much too broad a leap of faith to be agreed with, just on general principle.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  toddze

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2191

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

6/30/12 4:17:36 PM#27
Originally posted by bishbosh

MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.

in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.

in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.

for example

grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50   fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.

 

I was about to come in here and rip you a new one, after reading that title. I was steaming mad, my page couldnt load fast enough. But after reading your post i agree. If you dont have to compete with each other in PVE in some way shape or form it really is rather pointless. Mindless instance dungon running isnt challeneging. I always look to FFXI as the gold standard in PVE content. There was a lot of PvP going on that didnt involve players actually fighting other players. Non the less it was still PvP.

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  Vidir

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 962

6/30/12 4:19:41 PM#28
Originally posted by bishbosh

MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.

in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.

in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.

for example

grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50   fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.

 

 You are seriously wrong,look at all the pure pvp games released resently non of those has any big population.

And also take a look at games that sooner or later force people to pvp,people leav the game permanently when this happens.

Only few percent of mmo players wants pvp in the games most of us avoid pvp games.

All pvp focused games up to date has failed.

Pvp'ers are very loud on forums, that is reason why there is so much pvp in many games.

Sooner or later gamebuilders will even not include any pvp in the games,just becous they want to sell their product to the masses not only the few % that wants pvp.

  Acidon

Elite Member

Joined: 9/09/05
Posts: 657

Permafried

6/30/12 4:31:32 PM#29
Originally posted by toddze
Originally posted by bishbosh

MMORPGs generally tend to involve PVE and PVP interation.

in a proper mmorpg focussed on open world gameplaye rather than instances, there is only 1 environment (the game world) in which the players exist in. in PVE the players interact with this environment and they shape it with gameplay choices. The environment is in effect a product of player descisions. SInce every player is interacting with the same environment, they are effectively interacting with players or the results of players descisions. This sounds awefully like PVP to me.

in a real mmorpg PVE is also PVP.

for example

grinding 50 boars for their hides and exp.might seem like a purely PVE task but think about the implications. there is no 50   fewer boars for someone else to grind for exp. the price of boar hides has also just gone down because you have increased supply. your actions have just made everyone out there with boar hides a bit poorer.

 

I was about to come in here and rip you a new one, after reading that title. I was steaming mad, my page couldnt load fast enough. But after reading your post i agree. If you dont have to compete with each other in PVE in some way shape or form it really is rather pointless. Mindless instance dungon running isnt challeneging. I always look to FFXI as the gold standard in PVE content. There was a lot of PvP going on that didnt involve players actually fighting other players. Non the less it was still PvP.

 

That's how EQ (was?).  Spawn camping, having guildies man the spawn 24/7 until a pop, then all guildies received a quick call or page ~ SPAWN UP GET IN GAME.

Top guilds were always competing for top spawns, often for part of complicated Epic Quests.

 

That said, PvP being a direct "major" deal doesn't hold true with me.  It's fun, it's enjoyable to play on a PvP server while leveling, but I started RPGs when they were text-based and SP only.  The PvP as a fundamental part of a MMORPG seems silly to me.  MHO.

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  Dibdabs

Elite Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2339

6/30/12 4:32:30 PM#30

To a point, you are right, but the point is a pretty insubstantial one.  It depends on how well the PvE and PvP are implemented - my personal opinion is that only Eve Online has got PvP to the point where it could be classed as the core of the game.  PvP in almost every other game is just an inconsequential "insta-recovery" from death with no damage taken and nothing looted or lost. I don't even class that as PvP, I'm afraid.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3426

6/30/12 9:59:02 PM#31

It's absurd.  I am a PvE player.  I do not engage in any PvP of any kind, period.  I do not compete with any other players, period.  As such, PvP cannot possibly be the core of any MMO I play.

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  Lissyl

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 189

If cosmetics aren't content, why don't people demand a cheaper game done in full grayscale?

6/30/12 10:59:26 PM#32

When you invoke an obvious fallacy in the subject line of your premise, I'm not real confident that your argument will be very convincing.

 

Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time.  The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time. 

 

Of course not all PVP players are like this.  I think I've met almost 3 who weren't.  IIRC, they were run off by some jerk eventually, using exploits.  But seriously, to each their own and all, but pvp isn't anywhere near the core of an MMO.  Sowwy. :)

  OberanMiM

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 237

6/30/12 11:44:53 PM#33
Originally posted by Lissyl

Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time.  The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time. 

 


So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.

 

As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.

 

Yes there are some bad apples. But lets not forget on the non pvp servers you had people kill stealing mobs, killing raid triggers and other actions FAR worse than those that were on Rallos Zek because they hid behind the veil of not being able to be held accountable for their actions. The people who do that on PVE servers are the same type who would do those actions on pvp servers but who lack the guts to step out behind their veil of protection...

  Kaynos1972

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/04
Posts: 2323

6/30/12 11:51:05 PM#34
  Iced0ver

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/17/12
Posts: 49

6/30/12 11:53:53 PM#35

The atmosphere and environment is the core of any REAL mmorpg.

  Lissyl

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 189

If cosmetics aren't content, why don't people demand a cheaper game done in full grayscale?

7/01/12 12:03:08 AM#36
Originally posted by OberanMiM
Originally posted by Lissyl

Maybe PVP would be more interesting if it weren't populated, by and large, by the smarmiest, most arrogant, least social, most antagonistic, most faux-macho-minded people ever to populate the planet at one single point in time.  The kind of people who state that their intent is to cause others to quit the game in frustration - the very definition of a parasite, killing off their own host one player at a time. 

 


So you start out by throwing out insults to pvp players, thats real classy. Its also pretty arrogant of you to think that all pvp players are like that.. Rallos Zek was a shining example of how we pve'ed so we could pvp so we could pve. In the newer games with little to no penalties for dieing yes players act like that.

 

As i've said. There is a reason why Rallos Zek of all servers in EQ was able to keep Kerafyrm asleep so long. Its because we got along and policed our own. To come in with preconceived notions that all pvp'ers are like you stated above is just as arrogant as you beleive the pvp players themselves are.

 

I like how you yell at me for being arrogant, claiming I said they all were like that; nevermind my own post specifically notes that not all are like that.  There are a couple like you.

 

But I'm sorry; you are a dying breed in the 'modern' game.  Despite your assault on me, your pvp ethic was the one that attracted me to at least trying a little pvp.  It was everyone else that turned me off of it.  Not 'a few bad apples'.  More like one decent apple for every 6 bushels of rotten detritus.

  Nilenya

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 325

7/01/12 12:06:38 AM#37

The OP isnt wrong when you view competitive pve in a lot of mmo's concerning both economy pricing of pve materials, as well as competitions for spawns in non instanced games, and even spawnrates in games that have a lot of instancing besides the open world areas. Although this type of "pvp" if you will, does not deal with player vs. player combat at all. You could argue that Auction house competition as well as rare spawn camping, is very competitive and therefor is a form of pvp. Which I asume is what the OP is arguing.

 

However with GW2 cooperative pve is taken to entire new levels, and I believe we will see much more of this type of pve in the future if GW2 is a success. 

 

  Reizla

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 2898

MMORPGs are no longer about the mass multi-user anymore *sadly*

7/01/12 12:10:55 AM#38
Originally posted by Velocinox

Unequivocally incorrect.

Some of the reasoning is incorrect indeed, but OP has a  point. After having played Lineage II for years, I've seen some weird stuff happen there when numerous players of the same level are in one area. The start of the Luna (EU) server was the best example I think. 100's of players (level 1-10 range) doing starter quests and a lot getting frustrated by not being able to get the monsters they need, and thus start to kill other players instead. Also, the release of the Goddess of Destruction showed something similar with tne new 85+ area's. Again numerous players there and too few monsters to be killed, so a couple of players got impatient and started to PvP.

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  TwoThreeFour

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2133

7/01/12 6:39:15 AM#39
Originally posted by Axehilt

Complete nonsense.

The core of RPG systems since the dawn of RPGs has been, and will always be PVE.

 

Is it a necessary condition to have PvE as a core? Is it a desirable condition?

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/01/12 7:00:36 AM#40
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Is it a necessary condition to have PvE as a core? Is it a desirable condition?

Not even sure ya'll gots enough evidence to make a claim that mmo's are anthropocentric, at their core.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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