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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If the trinity were to expand ...

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90 posts found
  agriffin85

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 67

6/29/12 4:50:57 PM#21
Originally posted by azmundai

what other roles would it expand to and how would content be designed to accommodate those roles?

I realize there are a lot of people that don't like the trinity .. and the need to have roles and I appreciate that. Please be mature enough to appreciate that there is at least 1 person in the world that actually thinks they are a good thing. This post isn't about why I think they are a good thing .. I am just curious what other roles you think might work.


Regenerator:
What would it be like if mana/energy/etc were more finite and for more difficult encounters you needed someone in your group to cast regenerating buffs and spells? This would essentially be a healer for your mana/energy/etc bar.

Magic/Physical tanks:
What if tanking was broken into 2 roles. 1 for traditional warrior style mechanics and another where the clothies were the tanks. This has kinda been done before but not on a gamewide scale. That demon in SSC could be tanked by a warlock. Having played a traditional meatshield for most of TBC I found that fight to be quite interesting to tank along side a warlock. I remember mage-tanking the imps after broodlord in BWL too .. that was a blast :) and kite tanking the frost vulnerable mobs after the first drake .. man I miss that instance.

Buffer:
Basically vanilla wow shaman/paladin .. cleanse bot. This is a tough one. How can this be made into a more fun role overall? It's implementation in early wow is one of the things that to me .. ruined the idea of expanding roles. It was just boring as hell according to all the palys I knew back then.

Crowd Control:
I think this is easy enough to make cool. There are plenty of fights that use CC in many MMOs ..

Pullers:
pulling mobs, picking off runners

------------------------------------------------------------

How does it all play out?
The first thought is there would need to be encounters that didn't require a tank. Easy enough really. Think SOA in SWTOR without the tanking phase. Also fights that didnt require healers. Not sure how that would work.

Regenerators become a problem really fast .. as you would likely need one for every fight just like healers .. how do you prevent the need for this? Short fights, lots of mobility (buffer could have mobility buffs)

Anyway ... any other ideas?

 

... just so you know, you basically portraid the EXACT group make-up that was required for EQ1.  Not only was it expanded upon the trinity, but it was the OG of themepark group play.

 

Monks were dedicated pullers.  Chanters were dedicated mana batteries and CC'ers.  Shamans were dedicated Buffers/Debuffers with sub-par heals.  Bards were a dedicated jack of all trades for these rolls (pulling/buffing/debuffing/CCing).  All these rolls were absolutely required to be filled for anything worth doing.

tldr:  It's been done and it was awesome.

  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

6/29/12 4:56:40 PM#22

Well here's my two cents, forgive me if it's been said already, I kinda just skimmed the posts. But shouldn't the idea be to get rid of the trinity? It's good to have a role to play in combat but any system that requires your characted to be confined to that role permanently is a recipe for boredom...right? I was excited to see gw2 going in that direction though I haven't gotten to play any beta so I'm not sure how well they pulled it off but I do believe the idea was right. I personally disliked playing the same roles in combat over and over again.

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7029

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/29/12 5:00:56 PM#23
Originally posted by SkullyWoods

Well here's my two cents, forgive me if it's been said already, I kinda just skimmed the posts. But shouldn't the idea be to get rid of the trinity? It's good to have a role to play in combat but any system that requires your characted to be confined to that role permanently is a recipe for boredom...right? I was excited to see gw2 going in that direction though I haven't gotten to play any beta so I'm not sure how well they pulled it off but I do believe the idea was right. I personally disliked playing the same roles in combat over and over again.

 

No, role based combat IMO is an excellent thing. It encourages co-operation, communication, and tactics.

The trick, as you touch on, is to get rid of the enforced roles... give each player the ability to take any that needs taking on the fly.

 

The only thing that was annoying about the Trinity was searching for the needed class for a million hours. Remove that and you're golden.

  User Deleted
6/29/12 5:05:36 PM#24

I think the core of games is basically damage, damage avoidance/mitigation, and damage repair.

You can chop and dice these roles however you like, but that's what it boils down to.

I think someone figured out that it is alot more fun to be DPS+secondary ability, than to just purely be the secondary ability. In small group play many of the "off" roles bring little to nothing to the party. But...if you divide those abilities up with the primary roles you have fun classes to play.

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2156

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

6/29/12 5:07:52 PM#25
Originally posted by Quirhid

At this point I just think that traditional tanking is incredibly condescending  to players and while trinity makes grouping easy it makes combat formulaic, predictable and unavoidably boring.

Are you sure the trinity is responsible for the formulaic, predictable and boring nature of combat?

All you have to do is lower the threshold for drawing aggro and decrease the effectiveness of taunts, and the trinity becomes a much different ball of wax.

Taunting off mobs should take work.

Managing your aggro should be a skill.

  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

6/29/12 5:10:35 PM#26
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by SkullyWoods

Well here's my two cents, forgive me if it's been said already, I kinda just skimmed the posts. But shouldn't the idea be to get rid of the trinity? It's good to have a role to play in combat but any system that requires your characted to be confined to that role permanently is a recipe for boredom...right? I was excited to see gw2 going in that direction though I haven't gotten to play any beta so I'm not sure how well they pulled it off but I do believe the idea was right. I personally disliked playing the same roles in combat over and over again.

 

No, role based combat IMO is an excellent thing. It encourages co-operation, communication, and tactics.

The trick, as you touch on, is to get rid of the enforced roles... give each player the ability to take any that needs taking on the fly.

 

The only thing that was annoying about the Trinity was searching for the needed class for a million hours. Remove that and you're golden.

Yeah I agree, like I said roles are great to have in combat but you shouldn't be restricted to any one role. I remember as a kid before I even knew what the trinity was, trying to play whatever role I wanted to with whatever class I was using. I was quickly...and rudely corrected which kinda killed the experience for me because I felt limited. I did learn the importance of roles because I found I could never complete much without the trinity but never learned to really love a system that took away some of my freedom. And then again, it taught me to actually play different roles skillfully so it's a love/hate thing for me I guess.

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  Goreson

Novice Member

Joined: 1/26/11
Posts: 128

6/29/12 5:23:51 PM#27

I think the biggest mistake people are making with the "trinity" is look at it from a combat-centric angle.

Yes, like certain other people I love DAoC and love to reference it.

Especially when looking at a game like GW2 ;-)

But the thing is that both the PvP maps as well as the EB cry for a stealth class!

Not a stealth killer but a guy (or gal) able to sneak in and then... well, do things. Whether it is capturing a point, opening a door, disarming defenses, the list goes on and on.

Yeah, he might just be easy slush in combat, but heck, use him as a scout and you can avoid nasty mobs/player hordes on the prowl.

And again, if you expand him to good old D&D roles, yes, make him the Thief and let him do the detect traps, let him do the open locks, I mean c'mon, wouldn't it be too much fun if your "trinity" group just mastered The Dungeon Of Dooooooooom! and now sits in front of a nice big chest of goodies and nobody's there to open it? :-D

And yes, the "general supporter/utility guy": ever thought that everything is just too easy to access? Well, how about changing that?

Hey, look, we have reached The Chasm Of Eternity, now all we need to find is the bridge that leads across. - Oh, you mean that half-worn rope/piece of rubble? - Err...

Bring on the sup/util guy: cast a "repair" spell (maybe also good for those moments when your armour is down to 50%) and that rope looks much better. Or if the bridge is gone, well, bridge spell, flight spell, levitation spell, teleport spell, you pick, you choose, all there to get your party over.

Somebody already mentioned the Minstrel from DAoC and his speed buff, well, perfect for both PvE and PvP: "man, dem enemies are coming... *woosh* ...and are gone again... dang speed buffs!

You can come up with the weirdest (and smartest) concepts for tricks a sup/util guy may have up his sleeve, maybe even some for combat - like a money drop/xp boost due to a bard's singing of the heroics of the group, the ability to set up camp incl. defenses, item transportation obviously, etc.

Yes, again he is mushy in combat but, well, let's be fair: so is a healer... and a healer's role is by far more limited than that of a sup/util guy. ;-)

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

6/29/12 5:28:44 PM#28
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by SkullyWoods

Well here's my two cents, forgive me if it's been said already, I kinda just skimmed the posts. But shouldn't the idea be to get rid of the trinity? It's good to have a role to play in combat but any system that requires your characted to be confined to that role permanently is a recipe for boredom...right? I was excited to see gw2 going in that direction though I haven't gotten to play any beta so I'm not sure how well they pulled it off but I do believe the idea was right. I personally disliked playing the same roles in combat over and over again.

 

No, role based combat IMO is an excellent thing. It encourages co-operation, communication, and tactics.

The trick, as you touch on, is to get rid of the enforced roles... give each player the ability to take any that needs taking on the fly.

 

The only thing that was annoying about the Trinity was searching for the needed class for a million hours. Remove that and you're golden.

GW2 has roles, but those roles are situational - situational combat also requires coordination, communication and tactics.

The problem is AI.

Trinity allows AI to act dumb as hell and still be (somewhat) challenging.

It also desguise the numbers and formula combat.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16024

6/29/12 5:35:37 PM#29

Many games have had a lot of lesser roles, like buffers, CC and other utility classes.

But lets face it, the thing we should start with should really be discussing a new aggro system because in a trinity combat system all other classes besides the 3 are optional while you must have those 3, and the trinity classes all uses a rather boring and uninspiring combat mechanics where you rarely need to think at all.

There must be more interesting ways to handle aggro and group dynamics that trinity or the other few systems we seen so far. The trinity system is from Meridian 59 and I don't buy that they just stumbled on the perfect system at first try.

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/29/12 5:39:51 PM#30

If you add a role, will the metagame actually keep it?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/29/12 5:42:19 PM#31
Originally posted by Creslin321

I actually think that the trinity has been dumbed down in the current "WoW-era."  In EQ, the "trinity" actually had four necessary roles:

Tank, Healer, DPS, and CC

CC was just as vital as the "main" trinity later on in the game, and there was an entire class dedicated to it (Enchanter).

Anyway, if you define a "trinity system" as a system wherein players must take different specialized roles in order to succeed in combat...then I would personally not want the trinity to expand.  Expanding the trinity would mean more specialization, which would mean that each player gets stuck in a narrower niche. 

For example, healers right now can flash heal, shield, regenerate, buff, etc...  But if you expand the "trinity" to have roles like "regenerator" and "buffer."  Then you would have classes or specs devoted solely to a subset of what a healer used to be able to do.

Now I am totally in favor of adding different kinds of abilities to the game, but I would not want to make the narrow niche that trinity classes are put into even narrower.

Nothing about reducing the core roles is "dumbed down".

The fact that someone points out Shaman's purge ability brings up just one of many ways that each WOW class had plenty of little sub-roles they were playing in addition to their primary task.

The trinity itself is just slapping big simplified labels onto classes which in many cases can provide a variety of benefits (my shaman wasn't just a healer, but could also be an interrupter, a kiter, a purger, a cleanser, and/or a buffer.)

So really whether a game has a trinity or not says nothing about the true depth of a given class' playstyle.

  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16024

6/29/12 5:49:01 PM#32
Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing about reducing the core roles is "dumbed down".

The fact that someone points out Shaman's purge ability brings up just one of many ways that each WOW class had plenty of little sub-roles they were playing in addition to their primary task.

The trinity itself is just slapping big simplified labels onto classes which in many cases can provide a variety of benefits (my shaman wasn't just a healer, but could also be an interrupter, a kiter, a purger, a cleanser, and/or a buffer.)

So really whether a game has a trinity or not says nothing about the true depth of a given class' playstyle.

Not really, but it does tell us that the mobs are dumb as doorknobs all of them. All trinity games have really stupid AI.

My issue with trinity is tanking, it makes the game dumber and more predictable. Add a better mob AI and remove all taunts and CC and the combat will become very different even if you keep everything else the same.

Aggro should be set on who the mobs easiest kill and who is most dangerous in the group, not on silly taunts. Do you really think a smart dragon or liche would be that dumb?

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

6/29/12 5:54:23 PM#33
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing about reducing the core roles is "dumbed down".

The fact that someone points out Shaman's purge ability brings up just one of many ways that each WOW class had plenty of little sub-roles they were playing in addition to their primary task.

The trinity itself is just slapping big simplified labels onto classes which in many cases can provide a variety of benefits (my shaman wasn't just a healer, but could also be an interrupter, a kiter, a purger, a cleanser, and/or a buffer.)

So really whether a game has a trinity or not says nothing about the true depth of a given class' playstyle.

Not really, but it does tell us that the mobs are dumb as doorknobs all of them. All trinity games have really stupid AI.

My issue with trinity is tanking, it makes the game dumber and more predictable. Add a better mob AI and remove all taunts and CC and the combat will become very different even if you keep everything else the same.

Aggro should be set on who the mobs easiest kill and who is most dangerous in the group, not on silly taunts. Do you really think a smart dragon or liche would be that dumb?

Add passives to the list of stuff to remove.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  User Deleted
6/29/12 6:01:55 PM#34

THe biggest issue in the trinity is the mechanics, and reliance on a role that is really only proformed thru a single style of play, compared to the other roles that have between two an five different styles of playing the role. So first i would find several more unique methods of a character's class/build  being able to preform the role of a tank in a group. Another thgin would be to make mobs have a tendency to favor a certain role or class by multiplying the threat that class generates by several time the normal value to make them seem like they are actually gunning for that characgter/class, which could even be taken to racial choices and even classes based threat modifiers too. With the taunts i hated how they forced the mob to look at you or target you, where as to me a taunt should increase yoru threat generration on the target at best for a short period of time. One of the last thigns is making dps a secondary role, while putting cc/debuff/bufff based roles as primary in the trinity, that way the dps of a group is not as huge as the tools the group has to work with, although you could have a pure dps class/role it would faulter in groups as you lose many of the cc/buff/debuff tools for that increased damage they produce.

  Goreson

Novice Member

Joined: 1/26/11
Posts: 128

6/29/12 6:06:58 PM#35
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing about reducing the core roles is "dumbed down".

The fact that someone points out Shaman's purge ability brings up just one of many ways that each WOW class had plenty of little sub-roles they were playing in addition to their primary task.

The trinity itself is just slapping big simplified labels onto classes which in many cases can provide a variety of benefits (my shaman wasn't just a healer, but could also be an interrupter, a kiter, a purger, a cleanser, and/or a buffer.)

So really whether a game has a trinity or not says nothing about the true depth of a given class' playstyle.

Not really, but it does tell us that the mobs are dumb as doorknobs all of them. All trinity games have really stupid AI.

My issue with trinity is tanking, it makes the game dumber and more predictable. Add a better mob AI and remove all taunts and CC and the combat will become very different even if you keep everything else the same.

Aggro should be set on who the mobs easiest kill and who is most dangerous in the group, not on silly taunts. Do you really think a smart dragon or liche would be that dumb?

Well, I don't quite agree with you there because you look at it from a stats point, not from a "reality" point of view.

Think about RL for a sec: you are out at night, and a bunch of guys start shouting trash your way. For the sake of it, let's say they are kids so you assume you may be able to take them on.

On whom do you focus?

The "loudmouth" who is taunting you? The big fella who is quite but looks like he could land a good punch? The thing guy in the back who seems rather cool? Add what other characters you like... I'm sure you'd go for the loudmouth.

Just because you don't go rational about this but rather follow your hurt ego.

And yes, even dragons and liche have egos. So taunts make perfect sense. I mean c'mon, think Braveheart: showing your arse does very little damage to you (well, it could probably blind you or cause nausea...) but it's a perfectly effective taunt.

We players live in a MMORPG world of all information provided, level, class, etc. Imagine this were not the case! You feel like taking on that guy in robes? Oooops, happens to be a "kensai", a swordmaster who is so skilled with his sword that he'd see the use of armour as an insult to his craft. Dang!

You get where I'm coming from?

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

6/29/12 6:25:46 PM#36
Originally posted by Goreson
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Axehilt

Nothing about reducing the core roles is "dumbed down".

The fact that someone points out Shaman's purge ability brings up just one of many ways that each WOW class had plenty of little sub-roles they were playing in addition to their primary task.

The trinity itself is just slapping big simplified labels onto classes which in many cases can provide a variety of benefits (my shaman wasn't just a healer, but could also be an interrupter, a kiter, a purger, a cleanser, and/or a buffer.)

So really whether a game has a trinity or not says nothing about the true depth of a given class' playstyle.

Not really, but it does tell us that the mobs are dumb as doorknobs all of them. All trinity games have really stupid AI.

My issue with trinity is tanking, it makes the game dumber and more predictable. Add a better mob AI and remove all taunts and CC and the combat will become very different even if you keep everything else the same.

Aggro should be set on who the mobs easiest kill and who is most dangerous in the group, not on silly taunts. Do you really think a smart dragon or liche would be that dumb?

Well, I don't quite agree with you there because you look at it from a stats point, not from a "reality" point of view.

Think about RL for a sec: you are out at night, and a bunch of guys start shouting trash your way. For the sake of it, let's say they are kids so you assume you may be able to take them on.

On whom do you focus?

The "loudmouth" who is taunting you? The big fella who is quite but looks like he could land a good punch? The thing guy in the back who seems rather cool? Add what other characters you like... I'm sure you'd go for the loudmouth.

Just because you don't go rational about this but rather follow your hurt ego.

And yes, even dragons and liche have egos. So taunts make perfect sense. I mean c'mon, think Braveheart: showing your arse does very little damage to you (well, it could probably blind you or cause nausea...) but it's a perfectly effective taunt.

We players live in a MMORPG world of all information provided, level, class, etc. Imagine this were not the case! You feel like taking on that guy in robes? Oooops, happens to be a "kensai", a swordmaster who is so skilled with his sword that he'd see the use of armour as an insult to his craft. Dang!

You get where I'm coming from?

Then why do players ignore tanks in PvP, even if they call names to their mothers?

What about the natural reaction to hit those that hurt you?

What about the fact no one can shrug a axe hit on their heads as if it was nothing?

And will that kensai do much with an arrow or bullet in his eye?

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

6/29/12 6:36:09 PM#37
Originally posted by Loke666

Not really, but it does tell us that the mobs are dumb as doorknobs all of them. All trinity games have really stupid AI.

My issue with trinity is tanking, it makes the game dumber and more predictable. Add a better mob AI and remove all taunts and CC and the combat will become very different even if you keep everything else the same.

Aggro should be set on who the mobs easiest kill and who is most dangerous in the group, not on silly taunts. Do you really think a smart dragon or liche would be that dumb?

Having abilities which always do what they say makes the game more predictable too, but that doesn't necessarily make a game "dumb".

For any given game, many game rules need to be predictable.  Otherwise the game is just a bunch of random happenings you have no control over.

Other stuff can be unpredictable, but that's not exactly required for an amazing game (Portal.)

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3654

6/29/12 6:47:09 PM#38

It's weird.  When people talk about expanding the trinity, by and large, almost everybody goes with things that already exist, or existed.

It's perfectly possible to add things that have never really been done in an MMORPG.

I designed a whole MMORPG concept around this, but what about a class that can see things differently than other people?

Imagine how different it could be if there was a class that could, for example, see magical effects differently.

Like somebody who could see an enemy's hands glow different colors, and thereby be able to tell what spell they're about to cast.

Or who could see a leyline attached from an enemy to a power source, and rather than attacking the enemy directly, also has the option of attacking the leyline or attacking the power source (Or stealing the power source for yourself)

Somebody who could see the weak spot in a magical field (Aim for the head!), who could identify illusions, who... whatever.

That's just one possibility, too, but just by being able to see magic on a deeper level than other characters, that gives tons of possibilities.

... or what about a character who can see the future?  A couple seconds ahead of time, be able to tell if an enemy is about to start casting a big spell, or if they're going to block, or run away, or whatever. (Obviously this latter one  would only work in PvE, not PvP)

  Goreson

Novice Member

Joined: 1/26/11
Posts: 128

6/29/12 7:13:46 PM#39
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Then why do players ignore tanks in PvP, even if they call names to their mothers?

What about the natural reaction to hit those that hurt you?

What about the fact no one can shrug a axe hit on their heads as if it was nothing?

And will that kensai do much with an arrow or bullet in his eye?

Sorry but I don't really get your point?!

Taunts and players, that depends quite a bit on the skill/ability and how it works in PvP. In some games it may have little gaming effect which of course gives the player the choice to "overwrite" what would be the "correct" response, while in other games taunt cause more sever restrictions forcing the player to make the choice of whether he wants to go against the taunter full force or against another character with half his power.

Interesting would also be the aspect of actual roleplaying: the first thing (okay, one of the first things) is that in a RPG you are not playing yourself but a character, and depending on how that character is defined you may be "forced" to act in ways that you wouldn't e.g. stay silent/say dumb things if you are smart enough to have figured out that riddle but your character happens to be dumb as a bag of beans, etc.

So, any player ignoring a taunt would potentially very much play out of character.

Which obviously is not punished in MMORPGs but it's something to consider for your gaming experience. ;-)

The natural reaction to defend you against an attacker (potentially at the same time as being taunted - I assume that's what you were going for?) - see, as such we are talking game mechanics and they can only do so much.

Now, I'm sure you have seen action movies where this strongman gets attacked by a bunch of guys while mister super bad goon stays in the back taunting him.

The hero plows thru the mob not really caring about those "little pests" will maybe only start plugging them off when he is actually standing before mr big goon.

Why? Is that realistic? Not really... though one could argue that the adrenaline the body produces make you less rational and also reduces pain.

Your last 2 points, sorry, but they have nothing to do with what I said.

So... I'm not really sure what you are trying to say?

Of course would a Kensai have problems fighting with a bullet/arrow in his eye. Just as everybody else. So, you'd go around the attacking force and try to shoot out everybody's eye?

Of course, a game like GW2 is using miracle rifles, but try doing that with Brown Bess where you probably didn't get more than 3 shots of per minute against potentially fast moving targets... ouch. More likely it would be they dagger thru your eye than the other way round.

But the point I was trying to make with the Kensai was just that if we didn't know class and level but just went but "looks" i.e. armour we may easily get fooled.  

  jonesing22

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/01/10
Posts: 635

6/29/12 7:17:19 PM#40
Originally posted by XAPGames

Just knocking off a list.

 

Tanks

Off tanks (wouldn't cut it as main tank but can pull aggro off of back line)

Magic DPS (effective against heavily armored)

Melee DPS (effective against mobs resistant to magic)

Heals (actually 2 types, bursty and mana efficient)

Off heals (heal over time that augment normal healing)

Buffers Regenerators (usually healers or off healers)

Pullers (also used to pick off runners)

 

I'll add Debuffers/DOTs

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