Originally posted by fenistil

Single player games?  Sure.  Plenty of good indie games.

Normal multiplayer / co-op games?  Can also find some good ones.

Lobby multiplayer games?  Yeah. Same as above. Some insanely succesful and indutry defining even (LoL or WoT).

MMORPG?  Aside of EVE I have yet to find any good indie mmorpg. One that would not be ridiculoosely bugged, underdeveloped, understaffed and not providing most of features they promised. + takig ages to add anything new or fix things. Forever alpha state.

One good, succesful indie mmorpg in last 10-15 years?

Hardly a saviour for a genre and future to look for.

That's true. As has been cited in this thread already, it takes alot of resources to even make an mmo playable, much less polished and enjoyable. That's a tough road for an Indie company to travel down. Hell, mmo's these days are even risky for large companies.

We can still look to those Indie games for features or ideas, hoping that capable studios find creative ways to incorporate them into new mmo's. So while Indie's aren't necessarly large producers of quaity mmo's, the ideas generated from any game can cause new trends or playstyles. 

Fortunately, there may be an evoloving saving grace for Indie studios wanting to delve into MMO's. Browser MMO's. They still have a long way to go, but the technology is catching up (unity, etc). I think the future is bright for independent studios, as long as the tech behind it progresses. 

Originally posted by DannyGlover

People say they want new and innovative but are perfectly content saying the same thing over and over again in a forum.

Lol, perfect.

The irony with boutique studios is that gamers want to support them emotionally, but rarely financially.  I absolutely agree that boutique studios tend to be more creative with gameplay and mechanics.  The problem is that gamers somehow expect these studios to deliver the same quality and varied features out-of-the-gate.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

 

Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

38 studios had around 300 emplyees. They don't exactly fill the indie qualification even if the company itself is very young.

Sure it does.

'Indie' simply means not being owned by a 'major' or being part of a larger group. I also believe that 38 had a definite 'indie philosophy' of game design behind them, despite their solid funding.

But, nm, I accept you define it differently. Not like we will change each other's opinion on whats 'indie' here :)

If you had 300 families depending on your decisions, would you still be willing to take huge risks based on a hunch? As opposed to making those risks with only you and your life on the line? I don't know about you but I'm happy to take risks if it was only me, but I'd hate to take risks with the chance of ruining othe people's lives. Its different.

Not when everyone has chosen to be part of that project, no I wouldn't.

Personally I would be honest about what I was doing, what I was aiming for, the risks involved, and then let each employee make up his/her own mind and take that responsibility on themselves.

That's just me though.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

 

Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

38 studios had around 300 emplyees. They don't exactly fill the indie qualification even if the company itself is very young.

Sure it does.

'Indie' simply means not being owned by a 'major' or being part of a larger group. I also believe that 38 had a definite 'indie philosophy' of game design behind them, despite their solid funding.

But, nm, I accept you define it differently. Not like we will change each other's opinion on whats 'indie' here :)

 

If you have 300 employees, then your not indie.

"Independent video games (commonly referred to as indie games) are video games created by individuals or small teams without video game publisher financial support. "

according to your logic, if i had a team of 500 people, and 100 million dollars, but i didnt have a major publisher or owner i would be an idie game dev, simply not true.

Originally posted by sagil

...after big companies steal their ideas and make it 100-manned... but not as good, only 1/100th of the time. 

When buying indie games for the first time, I couldn't believe how much better and creative they are than 100 manned mmorpgs. It's the players that make better games, and not developers that have a life outside of gaming. They don't know sqwat. Players made the DotA map and see how popular it is now. When every single company first started they were a few people and they made awesome games. Then business men took over and hype the game with commercials and stuff and people think it's really good, but is it? Maybe it's for the playerbase that hadn't played the first game that wreak so much attention in gaming.

Companies are smart. That's what their job is. To research, steal, hype and act like it's revolutionary.

 

this is true in so many things.

examples: Led Zepplin and Pink Floyd were frown on by the radio industry and yet they have both become icons.

3rd party poltical parties never win elections but they always force the main two parties to address new issues and topics.

microsoft has stated in the past they they spend a great deal of time watching what other developers do with technology (so they can buy them if they end up good)

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by hercules
Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

Nah .. Avenger is a great movie. Avatar is a fun movie. The Dark Knight is a great movie. Indie can't do those movies.

 

 

Well we are talking about mmorpg here .

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Not true of just MMORPG's, but kind of like how indie films are often superior to these mega-buck canned big studio productions.  Guess the same thing is happening with gaming.

Oh really?

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by hercules
Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

Nah .. Avenger is a great movie. Avatar is a fun movie. The Dark Knight is a great movie. Indie can't do those movies.

 

 

Well we are talking about mmorpg here .

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

Not true of just MMORPG's, but kind of like how indie films are often superior to these mega-buck canned big studio productions.  Guess the same thing is happening with gaming.

Oh really?

yes.

However,

the spread in gaming is MUCH larger. Meaning indie games I have found are RADICALLY better than the mainstream ones. in movies it not always exclusively true

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

 

If you had 300 families depending on your decisions, would you still be willing to take huge risks based on a hunch? As opposed to making those risks with only you and your life on the line? I don't know about you but I'm happy to take risks if it was only me, but I'd hate to take risks with the chance of ruining othe people's lives. Its different.

The state of gaming right now is showing that gamers are truly sick and tired of playing the same exact thing in different worlds with the same exact gameplay. 

Also, what about the layoffs from Bioware? Tor did piss-poor performance and is dragging all of EA with it? As for why? Well, it wasn't because they were taking a lot of risks.

Innovate or die.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by hercules
Indie companies always bring out the best ideas.
Roma victor had one of the best ideas in the last ten years but lacked the skills or funds to makd it a reality.

Nah .. Avenger is a great movie. Avatar is a fun movie. The Dark Knight is a great movie. Indie can't do those movies.

 

But they can do these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvoKT481EmU

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

 

Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

38 studios had around 300 emplyees. They don't exactly fill the indie qualification even if the company itself is very young.

Sure it does.

'Indie' simply means not being owned by a 'major' or being part of a larger group. I also believe that 38 had a definite 'indie philosophy' of game design behind them, despite their solid funding.

But, nm, I accept you define it differently. Not like we will change each other's opinion on whats 'indie' here :)

 

If you have 300 employees, then your not indie.

"Independent video games (commonly referred to as indie games) are video games created by individuals or small teams without video game publisher financial support. "

 

according to your logic, if i had a team of 500 people, and 100 million dollars, but i didnt have a major publisher or owner i would be an idie game dev, simply not true.

Your seriously using Wikipedia as a source for your defintion? I am sorry, but no.

Look, I have said already I accept we define it differently. I had no interest in debating it further, simply because  Their is nothing in the term 'indie' that says numbers, merely that you are independant.

The Independant Games Festival defines it simply as; "Independently Created: The Nominating Committee must be confident that the submitted game was created in the 'indie spirit' by an independent game developer" 

Vague eh? Which is kinda my point... like many buzz words on the internet, it means different things to different folks and really has no definitive established meaning, even if one of those folks put his own definition on to Wikipedia.

It's pointless to argue the definitions here TBH. I think though that we can probably agree that a creative free thinking spirit and a focus on gameplay over pure profit are major elements, and that they are a good thing to have around.

I agree.

Industry changing/evolving indie games:

Fez, Terraria, Binding of Isaac, Minecraft, Spacechem, Gemini Rue, Legend of Grimrock, Botanicula, Lone Survivor, Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Journey, LIMBO, Amnesia, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Trine, Braid, Orcs Must Die!, Frozen Synapse, World of Goo, Dustforce, Realm of the Mad God, Pixel Junk , Dungeons of Dredmor , Jamestown, Defense Grid, Sequence, SPAZ, Sanctum, Bit.Trip, Path of Exile... I can go on and on.

Absolutely phenominal games made by indie teams. Teams that aren't afraid to think outside the box and deliever unique experiences to gamers. 

I personally spend more time with Indie games than any other AAA title.

Originally posted by Z3R01

I agree.

Industry changing/evolving indie games:

Fez, Terraria, Binding of Isaac, Minecraft, Spacechem, Gemini Rue, Legend of Grimrock, Botanicula, Lone Survivor, Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Journey, LIMBO, Amnesia, Dungeon Defenders, Bastion, Trine, Braid, Orcs Must Die!, Frozen Synapse, World of Goo, Dustforce, Realm of the Mad God, Pixel Junk , Dungeons of Dredmor , Jamestown, Defense Grid, Sequence, SPAZ, Sanctum, Bit.Trip, Path of Exile... I can go on and on.

 

Absolutely phenominal games made by indie teams. Teams that aren't afraid to think outside the box and deliever unique experiences to gamers. 

 

I personally spend more time with Indie games than any other AAA title.

This is a good list you just provided.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Its not about creativity or lack of it. The bigger game companies have hundreds of employees and likely hundreds of families depend on the success or failure of its product. With that kind of resposibility you can't do something with a whim and you have to have a damn good reason to do what you do - and some kind of proof that it will work.

A small indie company makes a mistake, its a no biggie. They rise and fall all the time. Their risk is small by comparison. When a big company makes a mistake, it impacts a lot of lives. 38 studios anyone?

 

Was 38 not an indie company? Albeit one with strong funding.

I also don't think that the people involved in indie dev projects see any failiure as 'no big deal'. The investment indie devs make in their product, both physically and emotionally, is huge.

38 studios had around 300 emplyees. They don't exactly fill the indie qualification even if the company itself is very young.

Sure it does.

'Indie' simply means not being owned by a 'major' or being part of a larger group. I also believe that 38 had a definite 'indie philosophy' of game design behind them, despite their solid funding.

But, nm, I accept you define it differently. Not like we will change each other's opinion on whats 'indie' here :)

 

If you have 300 employees, then your not indie.

"Independent video games (commonly referred to as indie games) are video games created by individuals or small teams without video game publisher financial support. "

 

according to your logic, if i had a team of 500 people, and 100 million dollars, but i didnt have a major publisher or owner i would be an idie game dev, simply not true.

 

Your seriously using Wikipedia as a source for your defintion? I am sorry, but no.

Look, I have said already I accept we define it differently. I had no interest in debating it further, simply because  Their is nothing in the term 'indie' that says numbers, merely that you are independant.

 

The Independant Games Festival defines it simply as; "Independently Created: The Nominating Committee must be confident that the submitted game was created in the 'indie spirit' by an independent game developer" 

 

Vague eh? Which is kinda my point... like many buzz words on the internet, it means different things to different folks and really has no definitive established meaning, even if one of those folks put his own definition on to Wikipedia.

 

It's pointless to argue the definitions here TBH. I think though that we can probably agree that a creative free thinking spirit and a focus on gameplay over pure profit are major elements, and that they are a good thing to have around.

 

 

Independent is a general term, but I agree it should not be defined by numbers alone. For example, a studio that takes on a large cash infusion (or investors) generally is tied to those investors in some way. By definition, this makes them less independent. Not necessarily in game design, but certainly in obligation.

Originally posted by fenistil

Single player games?  Sure.  Plenty of good indie games.

Normal multiplayer / co-op games?  Can also find some good ones.

Lobby multiplayer games?  Yeah. Same as above. Some insanely succesful and indutry defining even (LoL or WoT).

MMORPG?  Aside of EVE I have yet to find any good indie mmorpg. One that would not be ridiculoosely bugged, underdeveloped, understaffed and not providing most of features they promised. + takig ages to add anything new or fix things. Forever alpha state.

One good, succesful indie mmorpg in last 10-15 years?

Hardly a saviour for a genre and future to look for.

This. A few days ago, I posted that "The Repopulation" looks like just another overambitous & underfunded indie sandbox doomed to fail. The next day:

"You have been issued a temporary ban by one of our moderators."

WHAT? Apparantly, there's something wrong with stating that opinion, but, yeah... the "indie sandbox" genre has imo become almost as cliche and predictable as the "WoW-clone" genre, and I'm just as tired of it. Indie sandbox developers stubbornly try to do the same games with the same impossible feature lists - how many turned out a success? 

The scope of games like Minecraft, Terraria, LoL, or DayZ sounds reasonable. Trying to reinvent SWG on a tiny budget, not so much. 

Originally posted by Grixxitt

 

The state of gaming right now is showing that gamers are truly sick and tired of playing the same exact thing in different worlds with the same exact gameplay. 

Also, what about the layoffs from Bioware? Tor did piss-poor performance and is dragging all of EA with it? As for why? Well, it wasn't because they were taking a lot of risks.

 

Innovate or die.

Following many posters on this forum the definition of "innovative" is not necessarily new or inventive but something they specifically like. Usually some recurring feature from an age old game such as open world PvP or "this game is not innovative because it has quests."

It is really quite sad to read how they rape the word and make it mean whatever their preferences are.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Grixxitt

 

The state of gaming right now is showing that gamers are truly sick and tired of playing the same exact thing in different worlds with the same exact gameplay. 

Also, what about the layoffs from Bioware? Tor did piss-poor performance and is dragging all of EA with it? As for why? Well, it wasn't because they were taking a lot of risks.

 

Innovate or die.

Following many posters on this forum the definition of "innovative" is not necessarily new or inventive but something they specifically like. Usually some recurring feature from an age old game such as open world PvP or "this game is not innovative because it has quests."

It is really quite sad to read how they rape the word and make it mean whatever their preferences are.

People playing games with semantics is hardly specific to this forum, although I admit I haven't  seen it used much at all, much less in the ways you describe.

That being the case I can't really see it being used to mean "clone", "same","money grab", etc.

Also, what about those layoffs from Bioware?

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Also, what about those layoffs from Bioware?

Its fairly simple really. Like I've said in another thread some time ago, there's two ways to compete in the market:

1. DIfferentiate yourself from your competition
2. Lower your prices (lower manufacturing costs, logistics etc.)

SWToR didn't do either of these. It must be one of the first things they teach you in an economics class and somehow they forgot. Their product wasn't different enough to set itself apart from the competition (changing the milieu is just not enough) and the cost of development was record high so lowering prices was out of the question.

Third thing they did was they released an unfinished product, but since everyone does it what the hell, eh?

Did you see when Rift was being developed, it was first called Planes of Telara. Then they must have thought "Shit, we have nothing original in our game. We must think of something." Then it was called Rift: Planes of Telara maybe because they added rifts in. And finally just Rift, 'cause it was about the only thing setting itself apart from other MMOs. "Yes, yes, its a new thing, we'll roll with that. Sounds fresh! Lets put some marketing behind it."

I obviously made that up but it sort of looks that way from the outsid. Funny.

indie games are run by gamers

commercial games are run by donald trump clones.

donald trump clones don't actually play games.

Originally posted by eykosurf

Originally posted by DannyGlover

People say they want new and innovative but are perfectly content saying the same thing over and over again in a forum.

 

Lol, perfect.

 

The irony with boutique studios is that gamers want to support them emotionally, but rarely financially.  I absolutely agree that boutique studios tend to be more creative with gameplay and mechanics.  The problem is that gamers somehow expect these studios to deliver the same quality and varied features out-of-the-gate.

Exactly I have played the most innovative, and mind numbingly fun games ever, but they always were suffering from the same problems. Low population seems to be the number one killer. I ask people why they don't want to play these games that have every feature that they ask for and more. The number one response is that the graphics are bad. Well what did you expect? It's a handfull of people usually with little to no budget. It's hard for them to hire decent graphics artists in the first place because anyone who is decent doesn't need to work for the chump change the indie studio can afford to pay.

People need to pull their heads from their asses, and accept the fact that no AAA developer is going to do anything different until we prove with our wallets that is what we prefer. Start paying for those indie subs, and cancel your SWTOR and WoW accounts. Buy a few shares in a company and bring up the sandbox markets at investors meetings. DO SOMETHING besides complain on this forum allday.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Also, what about those layoffs from Bioware?

Its fairly simple really. Like I've said in another thread some time ago, there's two ways to compete in the market:

1. DIfferentiate yourself from your competition
2. Lower your prices (lower manufacturing costs, logistics etc.)

SWToR didn't do either of these. It must be one of the first things they teach you in an economics class and somehow they forgot. Their product wasn't different enough to set itself apart from the competition (changing the milieu is just not enough) and the cost of development was record high so lowering prices was out of the question.

Third thing they did was they released an unfinished product, but since everyone does it what the hell, eh?

 

Did you see when Rift was being developed, it was first called Planes of Telara. Then they must have thought "Shit, we have nothing original in our game. We must think of something." Then it was called Rift: Planes of Telara maybe because they added rifts in. And finally just Rift, 'cause it was about the only thing setting itself apart from other MMOs. "Yes, yes, its a new thing, we'll roll with that. Sounds fresh! Lets put some marketing behind it."

I obviously made that up but it sort of looks that way from the outsid. Funny.

Crunched for time so I'll just say, Nice Post

+1