I just cant believe Todd Howard and Bethesda are backing and supporting this......game.

Maybe Firor has some incriminating photos of Howard and is blackmailing him into allowing TESO.

Originally posted by PyrateLV

I just cant believe Todd Howard and Bethesda are backing and supporting this......game.

Maybe Firor has some incriminating photos of Howard and is blackmailing him into allowing TESO.

 I don't think he has any choice one way or the other. 

I am willing to bet that he's not happy about what they're making with the ES name though.  It goes against everything that Beth believes an ES game should be, completely counter to their philosophy for the brand, he can't possibly be pleased with what they're doing.

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by PyrateLV

I just cant believe Todd Howard and Bethesda are backing and supporting this......game.

Maybe Firor has some incriminating photos of Howard and is blackmailing him into allowing TESO.

 I don't think he has any choice one way or the other. 

I am willing to bet that he's not happy about what they're making with the ES name though.  It goes against everything that Beth believes an ES game should be, completely counter to their philosophy for the brand, he can't possibly be pleased with what they're doing.

Im wondering if we will ever hear Todd Howards opinion on TESO.

I mean, if he hates the whole idea he cant really say so because ZeniMax Media would flip out and he cant really say he likes it because then he would alienate a huge portion of the ES fanbase.

But then again, no comment at all speaks volumes

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by PyrateLV

I just cant believe Todd Howard and Bethesda are backing and supporting this......game.

Maybe Firor has some incriminating photos of Howard and is blackmailing him into allowing TESO.

 I don't think he has any choice one way or the other. 

I am willing to bet that he's not happy about what they're making with the ES name though.  It goes against everything that Beth believes an ES game should be, completely counter to their philosophy for the brand, he can't possibly be pleased with what they're doing.

Im wondering if we will ever hear Todd Howards opinion on TESO.

I mean, if he hates the whole idea he cant really say so because ZeniMax Media would flip out and he cant really say he likes it because then he would alienate a huge portion of the ES fanbase.

But then again, no comment at all speaks volumes

 Never will.  At least not unless the game flops and ZM comes out first and says it wasn't good.

People in Mr. Howards possition are usually not allowed to comment on such things, even when they quit working for the company.  A corporatin isn't a business, it's an entity, with laws designed to protect them from such things as a Mr. Howard leaving and telling the world that the people in charge had no idea what they were doing, and were only interested in milking people out of thier money by making crappy games that took advantage of popular IP's.

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by PyrateLV

I just cant believe Todd Howard and Bethesda are backing and supporting this......game.

Maybe Firor has some incriminating photos of Howard and is blackmailing him into allowing TESO.

 I don't think he has any choice one way or the other. 

I am willing to bet that he's not happy about what they're making with the ES name though.  It goes against everything that Beth believes an ES game should be, completely counter to their philosophy for the brand, he can't possibly be pleased with what they're doing.

Im wondering if we will ever hear Todd Howards opinion on TESO.

I mean, if he hates the whole idea he cant really say so because ZeniMax Media would flip out and he cant really say he likes it because then he would alienate a huge portion of the ES fanbase.

But then again, no comment at all speaks volumes

Not coming to their defense is a BIG message.

And I'm not sure ZMM would be able to do much, he's their star, if they lose him, they are pretty much fucked. 

However, he doesn't strike me as someone who would come out about it.  He will just focus on his own games, ya know, REAL TES titles and Fallout 4.

He did say just last year that he is not interested in a TES MMO, knowing full well by then that one was being made: http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/08/31/bethesdas-todd-howard-not-interested-in-an-elder-scrolls-mmo/

Regardless of Todd's personal feelings about ESO, if he's not going to come out and endorse it, I'm pretty sure a great many TES fans will raise an eyebrow.

He is THE MAN when it comes to TES, his word is essentially law, whether we like it or not.  The fact that he hasn't said a single word about ESO since its announcement is huge.

__________________________________________________

To reiterate an earlier point, and I wonder if anyone else agrees with me, when it comes to ESO, I DO NOT CARE about innovation.

What I personally want is an MMORPG in the TES world that plays like TES.  It can innovate on the TES formula if it wants, adapt whatever it needs to to the MMO format, sure, but that is my prerequisite.  It doesn't have to blow the lid off of innovation in MMOs, but if they simply brought TES in all its glory to an MMO (which they are not doing), it will by accident completely break the AAA fantasy MMORPG mold and bring sandbox, hardcore elements into a AAA game for the first time in a LONG time.  It would utterly shift the balance of the MMORPG landscape.

That said, Firor's words are still mightily stupid.  Regardless of what came next, this is the kind of thing you should never say as a game director/designer.

Originally posted by Entinerint

__________________________________________________

To reiterate an earlier point, and I wonder if anyone else agrees with me, when it comes to ESO, I DO NOT CARE about innovation.

What I personally want is an MMORPG in the TES world that plays like TES.  It can innovate on the TES formula if it wants, adapt whatever it needs to to the MMO format, sure, but that is my prerequisite.  It doesn't have to blow the lid off of innovation in MMOs, but if they simply brought TES in all its glory to an MMO (which they are not doing), it will by accident completely break the AAA fantasy MMORPG mold and bring sandbox, hardcore elements into a AAA game for the first time in a LONG time.  It would utterly shift the balance of the MMORPG landscape.

That said, Firor's words are still mightily stupid.  Regardless of what came next, this is the kind of thing you should never say as a game director/designer.

To me I think the most logical evolution of TES is to make it online like a TES game but add seigable assests, group crafting and the like just like darkfall has done. As far as it being innovative or not I dont know but I do know that for me the word 'class' screams lagard.unless its followed by the word no

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Entinerint

__________________________________________________

To reiterate an earlier point, and I wonder if anyone else agrees with me, when it comes to ESO, I DO NOT CARE about innovation.

What I personally want is an MMORPG in the TES world that plays like TES.  It can innovate on the TES formula if it wants, adapt whatever it needs to to the MMO format, sure, but that is my prerequisite.  It doesn't have to blow the lid off of innovation in MMOs, but if they simply brought TES in all its glory to an MMO (which they are not doing), it will by accident completely break the AAA fantasy MMORPG mold and bring sandbox, hardcore elements into a AAA game for the first time in a LONG time.  It would utterly shift the balance of the MMORPG landscape.

That said, Firor's words are still mightily stupid.  Regardless of what came next, this is the kind of thing you should never say as a game director/designer.

To me I think the most logical evolution of TES is to make it online like a TES game but add seigable assests, group crafting and the like just like darkfall has done. As far as it being innovative or not I dont know but I do know that for me the word 'class' screams lagard.unless its followed by the word no

I completely agree.

I do however think DF needs some improvement which hopefully gets addressed in DF 2.0.  A TES-like crime and punishment system would benefit that world greatly.  Also, the 40%-to-the-back rule kinda ruins melee combat for me.  I do prefer the more deliberate, visceral melee combat of Mortal and the fact that any weapon or spell can be used on any mount.

Lastly, skill caps like Mortal Online promote the hell out of teamwork.  And the plus-minus-lock system is pretty ingenious. 

Regardless, I'm nitpicking. 

(Oh, real-time Naval combat like DF would also be amazing)

Originally posted by Entinerint

 

__________________________________________________

To reiterate an earlier point, and I wonder if anyone else agrees with me, when it comes to ESO, I DO NOT CARE about innovation.

What I personally want is an MMORPG in the TES world that plays like TES.  It can innovate on the TES formula if it wants, adapt whatever it needs to to the MMO format, sure, but that is my prerequisite.  It doesn't have to blow the lid off of innovation in MMOs, but if they simply brought TES in all its glory to an MMO (which they are not doing), it will by accident completely break the AAA fantasy MMORPG mold and bring sandbox, hardcore elements into a AAA game for the first time in a LONG time.  It would utterly shift the balance of the MMORPG landscape.

That said, Firor's words are still mightily stupid.  Regardless of what came next, this is the kind of thing you should never say as a game director/designer.

 I agree with this.

I would actually go so far as to say that a real ES MMO with polish would indeed be innovative.  For no other reason then the fact that there isn't a fantasy based sandbox MMO out there that is polished and enjoyable to play, with robust PvE existing alongside PvP like in EVE. 

It would be innovative as a modern MMO because it has yet to be achieved.

List 5 "innovating" features you can come up with that will work in a MMO enviroment and you have to consider that not all gamers have top end PC and consider how much freedom a gamer can have on the gaming world without ruin it for everyone else.

Go.

Originally posted by Torgrim

List 5 "innovating" features you can come up with that will work in a MMO enviroment and you have to consider that not all gamers have top end PC and consider how much freedom a gamer can have on the gaming world without ruin it for everyone else.

Go.

 

"Oh my god!  I can't think of any off the top of my head so that must mean...that must mean...THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS INNOVATION!!!" - Matt Firor

1) Seamless orbital-to-ground exploration.

2) Voxel-based terraforming.

3) Craftable offensive potions that are used like fantasy versions of grenades.

4) Truly unique (one-per-server) weapons, armor and items that are incredibly hard to obtain/create, give the weilder incredible bonuses but can be taken at any time via FFA full-loot system.

5) Unique world-boss monsters who only appear once, take huge amounts of people to bring down and once are killed give the killer(s) enormous rewards and never appear again.

Bonus 6) RvRvRvRvRvR...so innovative!

Originally posted by Torgrim

List 5 "innovating" features you can come up with that will work in a MMO enviroment and you have to consider that not all gamers have top end PC and consider how much freedom a gamer can have on the gaming world without ruin it for everyone else.

Go.

 

I can't it's too hard.

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

He says other damning things like:

1. We need to make sure the playstyle feels like Elder Scrolls

2. They aren't using skill-based, but they are using a formula from older elder scrolls games.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

 

 It looks like he's going to be focused on the whole gaming experience which is what this genre despirately needs right now.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

 

We went over this already, he is saying they are not copying anyone and then blatantly copying everyone.  Sweet.  Do we listen to what the developers aka PR team says?  Or do we listen to what the more objective press outlets say?

And have you never heard of antithetical inspiration?  If you don't at least research the competition or contemporaries, you are more likely to accidentally copy them than try and find a new way of approaching something.

Not that they need to do that at all.

There is this great game series they could and should take a LOT of inspiration from.  I think it's called "The Elder Scrolls" or something.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

 

We went over this already, he is saying they are not copying anyone and then blatantly copying everyone.  Sweet.  Do we listen to what the developers aka PR team says?  Or do we listen to what the more objective press outlets say?

And have you never heard of antithetical inspiration?  If you don't at least research the competition or contemporaries, you are more likely to accidentally copy them than try and find a new way of approaching something.

Not that they need to do that at all.

There is this great game series they could and should take a LOT of inspiration from.  I think it's called "The Elder Scrolls" or something.

Or do we wait and make a decision for ourselves.

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

 

We went over this already, he is saying they are not copying anyone and then blatantly copying everyone.  Sweet.  Do we listen to what the developers aka PR team says?  Or do we listen to what the more objective press outlets say?

And have you never heard of antithetical inspiration?  If you don't at least research the competition or contemporaries, you are more likely to accidentally copy them than try and find a new way of approaching something.

Not that they need to do that at all.

There is this great game series they could and should take a LOT of inspiration from.  I think it's called "The Elder Scrolls" or something.

Or do we wait and make a decision for ourselves.

Always the best option.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

 

We went over this already, he is saying they are not copying anyone and then blatantly copying everyone.  Sweet.  Do we listen to what the developers aka PR team says?  Or do we listen to what the more objective press outlets say?

And have you never heard of antithetical inspiration?  If you don't at least research the competition or contemporaries, you are more likely to accidentally copy them than try and find a new way of approaching something.

Not that they need to do that at all.

There is this great game series they could and should take a LOT of inspiration from.  I think it's called "The Elder Scrolls" or something.

Or do we wait and make a decision for ourselves.

Always the best option.

I believe it is.

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

 

We went over this already, he is saying they are not copying anyone and then blatantly copying everyone.  Sweet.  Do we listen to what the developers aka PR team says?  Or do we listen to what the more objective press outlets say?

And have you never heard of antithetical inspiration?  If you don't at least research the competition or contemporaries, you are more likely to accidentally copy them than try and find a new way of approaching something.

Not that they need to do that at all.

There is this great game series they could and should take a LOT of inspiration from.  I think it's called "The Elder Scrolls" or something.

Or do we wait and make a decision for ourselves.

Always the best option.

I believe it is.

However, it doesn't mean you can't create an informed opinion based on the evidence presented thus far.  Just so long as you make sure to allow your opinion to be shifted and shaped as more evidence comes to light.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Vhaln

From an interview with PC Gamer..

 

"At this point in the evolution of MMOs, every MMO has tried something at one point or another that you're going to do in your game. There aren't any more truly innovative features." ~Firor

 

Anyone who feels that way should get out of any sort entertainment industry. They should realize they have no place doing anything remotely creative.  From this quote alone, I would say that any MMO he's in charge of will be worthless.  He should just be an accountant or something, not making games.

 

Also, practically answers my question as to how much creative power he had over DAOC, during most of its core development.  I'd guess close to none, but that he probably did have a lot to do with TOA and the less catastrophic but just derivitively lame Catacombs.

Taking things out of context is fun isn't it?

He goes on to say, (paraphrasing) "That is why we are not looking to other games for inspiration. We are avoiding 'gimmicks' to bring people in, and concentrating on making a good game".

So, what he was actually saying is, 'We won't make a clone' and you have decided that means that in reality, they are.

Here's the link if no one else put it up:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-video-interview-game-director-matt-firor-on-evolving-tes-into-an-mmo/

 

We went over this already, he is saying they are not copying anyone and then blatantly copying everyone.  Sweet.  Do we listen to what the developers aka PR team says?  Or do we listen to what the more objective press outlets say?

And have you never heard of antithetical inspiration?  If you don't at least research the competition or contemporaries, you are more likely to accidentally copy them than try and find a new way of approaching something.

Not that they need to do that at all.

There is this great game series they could and should take a LOT of inspiration from.  I think it's called "The Elder Scrolls" or something.

Or do we wait and make a decision for ourselves.

Always the best option.

I believe it is.

However, it doesn't mean you can't create an informed opinion based on the evidence presented thus far.  Just so long as you make sure to allow your opinion to be shifted and shaped as more evidence comes to light.

I agree

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Fearum

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zorgo

We went over this already, he is saying they are not copying anyone and then blatantly copying everyone.  Sweet.  Do we listen to what the developers aka PR team says?  Or do we listen to what the more objective press outlets say?

And have you never heard of antithetical inspiration?  If you don't at least research the competition or contemporaries, you are more likely to accidentally copy them than try and find a new way of approaching something.

Not that they need to do that at all.

There is this great game series they could and should take a LOT of inspiration from.  I think it's called "The Elder Scrolls" or something.

Or do we wait and make a decision for ourselves.

Always the best option.

I believe it is.

However, it doesn't mean you can't create an informed opinion based on the evidence presented thus far.  Just so long as you make sure to allow your opinion to be shifted and shaped as more evidence comes to light.

While I agree this is possible, I am not sure that this is what is happening here with certain people. I admit people can informed their opinion based on evidence and to allow it to evolve. However......

It is also common in the human experience to 'hear what they want to hear', and thus spin 'facts' into proof of their own particular viewpoint.

For example, the OP most certainly took a snippit from the interview and cut it off at the point where we couldn't see that it was actually a preface to him saying, 'so we aren't going to look to them for insperation' . So this discussion didn't start off as a 'let's discuss what he said' it started off by cutting a segment to prove a pre-set agenda - not to create an informed opinion based on the evidence - but rather form your opinion on just this segment of the evidence I have presented to you.

That's why I linked the whole interview. So we could actually have an honest discussion about what was actually said. Why didn't the OP link it? Well, obviously there is some attractive stuff in TESO he didn't want to muddy up his point of doom and gloom.

And to Entinerent - watch the interview. His openner stresses that it is the IP as their most important source of inspiration. And that the playstyle will have to reflect the TES line. And that while not a skill based model, they are using a character build model directly from the older TES games.

But, as you can see, people aren't 'hearing' the things being said, but rather are already nit-picking each statement for the piece that confirms their pre-conceived notion.

It already seems to be impossible to actually 'discuss' our opinions about the game - its already turned into an angry mob - and they are RARELY governed by an ever evolving rational opinion based on evidence.