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Originally posted by MadDemon64

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Originally posted by Cacaphony Mob mentality though it may be, the complaints remain relevant, and persistent. The issues still remain and are discussed, no matter what the "flavor of the month" is. Issues since launch are still being talked about, so the fact that the lockbox complaints have lessened doesn't really mean squat.

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True, but it just gets annoying and repetitive to the point where one must question whether the people who join in the complaining about it later on actually have legitimate reasons, or are they complaining because they just want to complain and/or hate the company without any reason and are just latching on to the complaining.

But I think that several people in the this forum post (http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=281131) do a good job in countering complaints such as these, especially januhull.

So to everyone complaining about cash shops, lock boxes, Dilithium exchange, etc. go to that forum post, as I must wash my hands of you.

It has been fun.

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One post made by a person does not negate an entire issue, nor the opinions of those that express concern, sorry. The fact that others post similar things as the person you mentioned also doesnt negate or counter anything.

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Originally posted by AG-Vuk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebMIlKK6p24

  People can decide for themselves.

So some guy wants stuff now (in an mmo of all things) and doesn't want to pay or play for it.

So what's the answer?  If stuff is free and easy to obtain then it's called instant gratification.  If stuff is hard to get, takes time, or is sold in a cash shop then it's grindy.   It can't be both ways.

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Originally posted by MadDemon64
I have not ignored evidence, you have not given it.

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Again, yes, I have.

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"If the price of some cash shop item is x, do you think it is easier to buy it with money or grind dilithium?"

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Therein lies the point myself and others have been trying to get across to you. Unfortunately, you are trying to compare apples to oranges. No one disputes that you can grind out dilithium to buy items in the C-Store. The point I have been making (repeatedly) is that the amount of time required to grind enough to buy some items in the store is purposefully designed to be overtly time consuming. Again, Cryptic/PWE does this purposefully as to get you to spend the real cash instead of grinding.

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These are not evidence, just loaded questions that are designed to make either make either you seem correct or make the replier seem like an idiot with no middle ground.

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How long it takes to grind out an item vs. buying it outright is a no brainer. I do not need "evidence" beyond simple math. Use my example from my previous post. I say it takes less time to spend real cash and buy 4,000 Cryptic points/Zen to buy the Odyssey Pack than it would to grind the equivilent amount of Dilithium in game and get the ship for free. I challenge you to prove this wrong. Start from zero dilithium and grind out enough to convert to 4,000 CP (remember, 1 dilithium does not equal 1 CP) and let us know how long it takes you. My way gives me the ship immediately. Your way will take weeks, if not longer depending on playtime. Prove that wrong.

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I need evidence, as in PROOF that Cryptic would prefer people to buy stuff in the cash shop rather than use the Dilithium store.

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Wow, for real? Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. As a business in the business of making money, Which would you prefer? Your customers spending months not spending any money in your store and grinding dilithium to get all your store items for free, thereby making you no income vs. customers spending cash right now to buy the items in your store and you making income?

No brainer.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by AG-Vuk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebMIlKK6p24

  People can decide for themselves.

So some guy wants stuff now (in an mmo of all things) and doesn't want to pay or play for it.

So what's the answer?  If stuff is free and easy to obtain then it's called instant gratification.  If stuff is hard to get, takes time, or is sold in a cash shop then it's grindy.   It can't be both ways.

 So let me get this straight , I put up a video clearly explaining the grind and your complaint is, the guys complaint about the grind ? Really ? The whole point of the debate, was the grind . One person offerring info that you could get items free of the ingame store , by grinding . He made it sound easy . We all know, it's not. Granted I didn't acknowledge that it was possible in this particular debate. Even though I am aware then, as now that it is. The grind makes it so impractical as to be detracting from the game and frankly , not feasible. Find me a video of someone who is happy about the grind in a f2p game . Oh you can't,  because they don't exsist.

IMO if you play f2p games , either play and enjoy the grinding for items or pony up and p2w, but you can't complain you knew what you were getting into. You can only choose not to play . Nothing shutters a game faster then no player population or income generated.

Originally posted by AG-Vuk

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by AG-Vuk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebMIlKK6p24

  People can decide for themselves.

So some guy wants stuff now (in an mmo of all things) and doesn't want to pay or play for it.

So what's the answer?  If stuff is free and easy to obtain then it's called instant gratification.  If stuff is hard to get, takes time, or is sold in a cash shop then it's grindy.   It can't be both ways.

 So let me get this straight , I put up a video clearly explaining the grind and your complaint is, the guys complaint about the grind ? Really ? The whole point of the debate, was the grind . One person offerring info that you could get items free of the ingame store , by grinding . He made it sound easy . We all know, it's not. Granted I didn't acknowledge that it was possible in this particular debate. Even though I am aware then, as now that it is. The grind makes it so impractical as to be detracting from the game and frankly , not feasible. Find me a video of someone who is happy about the grind in a f2p game . Oh you can't,  because they don't exsist.

IMO if you play f2p games , either play and enjoy the grinding for items or pony up and p2w, but you can't complain you knew what you were getting into. You can only choose not to play . Nothing shutters a game faster then no player population or income generated.

Well what do you suggest then.  I do agree that if the grind is tedius and you're not having fun with it then it's lame.  But then why play a game that you don't find fun to play.

Here's an example:  In another thread people are arguing and lamenting how old grindy systems like encumbrance and food/drink are sadly missing from current games.  They posit that those systems added a lot of RPG depth to game play.  I disagree and think they were just shallow meaningless time sinks that added no fun to the game.  They were spinning in circles for the sake of it.

In this case the complaint seems to be that the whole game takes too much time to accomplish tasks or goals.  I can see that in some cases but I also think that there is an unrealistic expectation that more is provided for free or easy.  I mean you get some foundry access for no additional cost as a free player.  Is it unreasonable to charge for easy additional access to the foundry if you're a free player?  An alternative route is provided if you don't want to just buy the access.  Also you don't have to go to either extreme.  You could spend some time gaming for stuff, you could play the market and buy dilithium, and you could just outright buy a bit directly.  That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

When I compare that to some other freemium games I play where I must actually subscribe to unlock the whole game (eg: EQ2) the fee and setup seems reasonable to me.

I'm not a huge fan of lockboxes and the gambling, but I just don't play that part of the game.  I sell those on the market.  The stats on the rare starship don't seem any better than what you can buy in the c-store itself.

In my perfect MMO world I would pay a subscription to a game and get it all for the price of the sub like I did in Lineage or do in RIFT (unless they charge for their next xpac).  Or, in a F2P game, I could game for anything or buy it in the store.  That is everything available in a cash shop would be in the game and anything in the game could be purchased in the cash shop.

ps: wow i wrote a fricken book there.  sorry.

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Originally posted by Torvaldr

I mean you get some foundry access for no additional cost as a free player.

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If Cryptic/PWE did not offer foundry access to free players, those free players would run out of content very quickly. They have been already. This is nothing new and has been a complaint about the game for quite some time now.

I have no issues with the f2p model , or the grind in p2p , f2p . It's a mechanic of MMO's and how a dev structures his game around this element is completely up to them. Some dev are more obtuse about how they apply it. My biggest argument against Cryptic ( currently, besides being blatantly deceptive and dishonest on a level not seen, for a while )  is not the foundry , but how it's implemented. It's that people have to pay  ( and yes the majority have to pay to use the foundry ) to create content for a content light game, to keep Cryptic in business, while they do nothing but pump out c-store items. Then to top it off Cryptic and probably CBS have claimed IP rights to any content published therein.  I have serious issues with that portion of the foundry. While most wouldn't give it a second thought , it is a serious issue. If the practice grows in the gaming industry, it will present a serious issues. The old saying of "  there is nothing new under the sun "  is apt.