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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Perspective is everything

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33 posts found
  11Bomber29

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/12
Posts: 5

 
OP  6/26/12 3:26:46 AM#1

I have never joined a public forum regarding gaming until now; it was always individual guild/clan forums, etc.  I've read through a number of the non-sticky threads, most of which are loaded with ambiguous negativity, disappointment and resentment about ToR and/or the devs.  What it comes down to is that there is no game, nor will there ever be one that is loved and revered by all.

Every mmo gamer has their own idea of what would make the 'perfect' game, but there would be throngs of others who would be upset about different aspects of that 'perfect' game if it ever became a reality.  On top of that, each individual gamer tends to change over time, in one way or another.  For example... about a year ago, a close buddy of mine and I were talking about Everquest (yeah, we're old), and we reminisced about how good the game was, how we missed the inherent difficulty of an mmo that released in 1999, and so on.  After a few different conversations, I did some research and found a sizable group running an online emulator that recreated the game as it was in 1999.  We both dove in, invested some time, and the first time he died on a different continent and had to run for 2 real life hours to a dock to take a boat to get to his corpse to retrieve all the gear he had on it, he decided he really didn't want to play anymore.  One of the many difficulties that he said made the game so great was now the very reason he didn't have the patience to play it again.

We all have our gripes about every MMO we've participated in.  Whether you were one of the people who thought that WoW was too cartoonish, or EQ2 sucked because you had to have a monster system at the time it was released to run it with nice graphic settings, or Aion was a letdown because you couldn't fly except for a limited time and in a handful of places.  Maybe Rift and Tera's graphics are too anime-looking, or CoH and DC and Champions Online were just too cookie-cutter for you.  Whatever the case may be, we can all make a case for something being wrong with whatever game we are playing, mmo or otherwise.

When MMO's first began trickling into the picture with games like Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, and Everquest, it's safe to say they weren't inundated with 8-14 year olds.  As time went on, the ability for a younger crowd to participate went through the roof.  It makes perfect sense.  Mom and Dad pay $10-15 a month to get Jr. out of their hair for a few hours each day.  Hell, I'm partly guilty of doing the same thing.  The generalized 'dumbing down' of MMO's across the board to cater to the very young has hurt content to some extent.  Example: Quest givers.  In practically every game you now see a symbol of some kind over the head of a 'questgiver' .  This tells even the youngest player that this npc has a quest for you.  You click on that npc and he/she/it says "I need you to get me such-and-such, if you do, I'll give you some cool stuff".  There's no real interaction with the NPC, no discovery, no intellectual prompting, no persona.... (I'll give TOR credit for that, the storyline idea is better than nothing)  On top of that, most games will show you EXACTLY what you will get or can choose from if you complete the quest.  There is no mystery, no randomness, no surprise, no letdown if the reward ends up being a bummer.  In most games, it's the exact same rewards for completing the quest, no matter who is doing the quest.

I could go on at length on this topic, but as it is, I am already worried about the posters who like to 'quote' an entire post before responding to it, rather than just quoting segments that they'd like to address.  That being said, my advice is to play whatever you are able to find enjoyable, but until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

  User Deleted
6/26/12 3:40:23 AM#2

OP, I think you probably should have posted this in the PUB section of the MMORPG forums. You make a lot of interesting points and I appreciate the consideration you put into writing this post.

 

I'm afraid, however, that by posting it in the SWTOR forums, you may have inadvertently created yet another *portal* or *nexus* as it were for the anti-SWTOR voices to flow. Let's see. Hopefully, I'm wrong. There is a lot of beating on dead horses around these parts.

 

Now as  to your post, I agree that it is sane and sensible to find a game you like and play it. When I first came to these forums, I imagined it would be a place to find out info about games, get strategies, tips, and so on. I also thought you could get people's views on games. You can do all of those things here, but a large part of what goes on is very negative.

 

For example, if you start a post asking a simple question, you might get some really good discussions going with well thought out and considerate replies. Quite often, however, you have to be prepared for 2 or 3 people to totally derail the thread with their own personal battle between each other about defending or hating on a specific game. You can  see this throughout these forums, and in the past few months SWTOR has been a specific place where this has happened a lot. 

 

On a positive note, complaining posters are starting to let SWTOR go as they move on to other games like GW2 and TSW.   Things just happen that way and you have to recognize thread derailers. They tend to be the same people, so you can block them and get back to happy reading about the games you like. I haven't blocked anyone yet, but I might do.

 

So enjoy your game. If you're having fun with SWTOR, good for you. I guess the community must be stabilizing now and the people who like it will stay. These forums ought to calm down a bit now and get to where the game is.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/26/12 3:43:58 AM#3

You might be able to get a MMORPG moderator here to just move your post to the pub since it's not entirely specific to SWTOR, but I can't confirm if they would do this.

  11Bomber29

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/12
Posts: 5

 
OP  6/26/12 3:46:16 AM#4

If you think it would do better in the 'very' general discussion section of the site, I could copy/paste it there and see what happens.  The only reason I did it here was because I was searching for tips and the link brought me straight to the ToR section of this site. :-)

 

  Bushi131

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/19/12
Posts: 64

6/26/12 4:11:41 AM#5
Originally posted by 11Bomber29

 What it comes down to is that there is no game, nor will there ever be one that is loved and revered by all.


World of warcraft is a solid game that actually brought a lot of players together. I thought it was one game that most of the people liked at one momment or another. The real problem is, i think, that since it's been created nobody intended to improve it's design.

You might say that it could be possible to have one game that might appeal to most of us only it's not out on the market yet.

Most of the players complain about games that let them down, but in reality all of those game are just wow clones, hell even diablo 3 is a soort of WoW-clone with uber randomness, develloppers might have thought it woud be good to remove loot tables, but in all it's pretty much the same system. (yes, it might be less work to update the game with expansion, since there is no need of loot table)

I really do understand why most of player feel that they have been let down by all those new games.

It's difficult not to try to find another game once the one you had doesn't appeal anymore.

The real problem is that no other game has been made since WoW came out.

 

ps: i think that the topic of this post is not about wether to move this post from one section to another.....

  ThemePork

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/11
Posts: 317

Pork, it's like beef but not quite.

6/26/12 4:36:01 AM#6
Originally posted by 11Bomber29 ...until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

I can't say I agree with this statement. If we can't critique games or voice our concerns about the current state of the genre, MMOs will forever remain stagnant and will never improve.

I'd say quite the opposite as you actually, if you see something you don't like, say it immediately and say it loud. It isn't about getting devs to tailor games to our individual tastes and needs, it's about helping the genre move forward.

MMO devs (and entertainers in general) need open communication channels with their customers/fans else they loose touch with what people want. Being critical as a consumer is a necessity imo.

 

  delete5230

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 2474

6/26/12 5:03:52 AM#7
Originally posted by 11Bomber29

I have never joined a public forum regarding gaming until now; it was always individual guild/clan forums, etc.  I've read through a number of the non-sticky threads, most of which are loaded with ambiguous negativity, disappointment and resentment about ToR and/or the devs.  What it comes down to is that there is no game, nor will there ever be one that is loved and revered by all.

Every mmo gamer has their own idea of what would make the 'perfect' game, but there would be throngs of others who would be upset about different aspects of that 'perfect' game if it ever became a reality.  On top of that, each individual gamer tends to change over time, in one way or another.  For example... about a year ago, a close buddy of mine and I were talking about Everquest (yeah, we're old), and we reminisced about how good the game was, how we missed the inherent difficulty of an mmo that released in 1999, and so on.  After a few different conversations, I did some research and found a sizable group running an online emulator that recreated the game as it was in 1999.  We both dove in, invested some time, and the first time he died on a different continent and had to run for 2 real life hours to a dock to take a boat to get to his corpse to retrieve all the gear he had on it, he decided he really didn't want to play anymore.  One of the many difficulties that he said made the game so great was now the very reason he didn't have the patience to play it again.

We all have our gripes about every MMO we've participated in.  Whether you were one of the people who thought that WoW was too cartoonish, or EQ2 sucked because you had to have a monster system at the time it was released to run it with nice graphic settings, or Aion was a letdown because you couldn't fly except for a limited time and in a handful of places.  Maybe Rift and Tera's graphics are too anime-looking, or CoH and DC and Champions Online were just too cookie-cutter for you.  Whatever the case may be, we can all make a case for something being wrong with whatever game we are playing, mmo or otherwise.

When MMO's first began trickling into the picture with games like Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, and Everquest, it's safe to say they weren't inundated with 8-14 year olds.  As time went on, the ability for a younger crowd to participate went through the roof.  It makes perfect sense.  Mom and Dad pay $10-15 a month to get Jr. out of their hair for a few hours each day.  Hell, I'm partly guilty of doing the same thing.  The generalized 'dumbing down' of MMO's across the board to cater to the very young has hurt content to some extent.  Example: Quest givers.  In practically every game you now see a symbol of some kind over the head of a 'questgiver' .  This tells even the youngest player that this npc has a quest for you.  You click on that npc and he/she/it says "I need you to get me such-and-such, if you do, I'll give you some cool stuff".  There's no real interaction with the NPC, no discovery, no intellectual prompting, no persona.... (I'll give TOR credit for that, the storyline idea is better than nothing)  On top of that, most games will show you EXACTLY what you will get or can choose from if you complete the quest.  There is no mystery, no randomness, no surprise, no letdown if the reward ends up being a bummer.  In most games, it's the exact same rewards for completing the quest, no matter who is doing the quest.

I could go on at length on this topic, but as it is, I am already worried about the posters who like to 'quote' an entire post before responding to it, rather than just quoting segments that they'd like to address.  That being said, my advice is to play whatever you are able to find enjoyable, but until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

In this wall of text you forgot the most important aspect " Community " mmos are no longer based around Guilds and friends. Both are what makes an mmo, and longevity of game play. With active friends, this makes a player log in time after time.

In your example of Going back to vanilla EQ2, I find it a bad example because who ever created the aftermarket copy went too far back. If things were done right, situations like the harsh death penalty could have been avoided, and fixed.

MMO's such as Vanilla WoW took a turn for the worst when they introduced the " Dungeon Finder " this dismantled the community.  Since then many mmo's followed this path THINKING that because Blizzard did it it must be good.  In my opinion this was not so, but in fact it was a mistake.  However WoW already being strong survived anyway because of their reputation at the time.  All other's adding a Dungeon finder would be doomed as far as a community.  With no community, you have no longevity.

In SWTOR, in my opinion Voice acting took away from the community.  This takes away from the immersion of community, and gives a solo personal story.  Sure many will say they love the Voice acting, but in reality they are the solo players and Starwar fans.  Many of them are not even MMO fans but more Starwars fans hoping on a chance to play another Starwars game.

Developers, are not seeing the real problem " Community "

  Metentso

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1457

6/26/12 6:34:28 AM#8
Originally posted by 11Bomber29 That being said, my advice is to play whatever you are able to find enjoyable, but until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

Do you only whine about what you can do better? You must whine very little and companies love you, because companies love people who pay without complaining, or you are a genius? I bet you are a genius!

  User Deleted
6/26/12 6:45:03 AM#9
Originally posted by Charas
Originally posted by 11Bomber29 ...until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

I can't say I agree with this statement. If we can't critique games or voice our concerns about the current state of the genre, MMOs will forever remain stagnant and will never improve.

I'd say quite the opposite as you actually, if you see something you don't like, say it immediately and say it loud. It isn't about getting devs to tailor games to our individual tastes and needs, it's about helping the genre move forward.

MMO devs (and entertainers in general) need open communication channels with their customers/fans else they loose touch with what people want. Being critical as a consumer is a necessity imo.

 

Concur.

---

I also concur that if you find a game enjoyable play it.

If you can find no game enjoyable, find a different hobby?

If you are currently waiting for a game you think you will find enjoyable, troll other games while waiting.

 

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3132

6/26/12 7:25:00 AM#10
Originally posted by 11Bomber29

I could go on at length on this topic, but as it is, I am already worried about the posters who like to 'quote' an entire post before responding to it, rather than just quoting segments that they'd like to address.  That being said, my advice is to play whatever you are able to find enjoyable, but until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

So....... what you are saying is that unless I open up my own franchise burger chain, I'm not allowed to complain about McDonald's?  I for one am glad that most businesses "outside" of computer gaming listen to complaints so they know how to make things better.. 

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

6/26/12 7:42:54 AM#11

Great post op and as in greyhoofs sig pic it's beating a dead horse around here I assure you before the end of this post you will get more than a few people to actually make light of the fact that this site isn't full of mmo fans but mmorpg haters who will try to drive any game they don't see as made for them into the ground sad but true.

I love TOR but can certainly see how some would not and can even see often who these players would be such as the sandbox crowd or the pvp crowd what I can't see is how people dedicate so much time to simply hating on something because they personally don't like it.

I must admit at times I've indulged in a bit of game hating myself but when I did so it was always because I felt that the developer of said game was engaging in a practice I thought would be harmfukl for all gamers.

Examples being the way Funcom lied to it's player base around the release of AOC or the way cryptic seemed to favor development of C store items while the population was forced to pay a standard subscription fee.

Even with the fact that I thought these companies were engaging in practices that would be detrimental to all of us players I still wouldn't presume to tell another player that simply beause I wasn't satisfied with the games that they should be so as well.

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

6/26/12 7:48:14 AM#12
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by 11Bomber29

I could go on at length on this topic, but as it is, I am already worried about the posters who like to 'quote' an entire post before responding to it, rather than just quoting segments that they'd like to address.  That being said, my advice is to play whatever you are able to find enjoyable, but until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

So....... what you are saying is that unless I open up my own franchise burger chain, I'm not allowed to complain about McDonald's?  I for one am glad that most businesses "outside" of computer gaming listen to complaints so they know how to make things better.. 

I don't think he's saying that at all but if you don't like McDonald's doesn't seem to me that people take every opportunity that food is brought up to try and convince people why McDonald's is a failure and how one would be doing so much wrong simply by eating there.

  KamiKazeTG

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/05
Posts: 58

6/26/12 7:51:46 AM#13
Originally posted by delete5230
Originally posted by 11Bomber29

I am already worried about the posters who like to 'quote' an entire post before responding to it, rather than just quoting segments that they'd like to address.

In this wall of text you forgot the most important aspect...

It's not a wall of text when there's proper punctuation and line breaks. It may look like that to others that have trouble processing more than one line of information. But, thank you for taking the time to do exactly what the OP was worried about..thereby proving his apprehention at posting here.

To OP: Things will not change unless others speak up about it. Telling people not to speak up since they aren't making their own game...doesn't really make sense. Since, they should be focused on their own game and not someone else's. Don't put it out to the public if you don't want to hear opinions about it from said public..good or bad. Companies know this already..or should by now.

Sure, you don't hear people complaining about McDonalds..that's because you're on a MMORPG site that is meant to talk about MMORPGs. If we had a site to talk about Fast Food Restaurants, you'd read complaints about them there..at length..to be sure. In fact, when you visit restaurant review sites...there ARE people saying you'd have to be insane to like the food..etc etc and others arguing back about it. It's just not main stream on the internet.

  11Bomber29

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/12
Posts: 5

 
OP  6/26/12 8:35:01 AM#14

Perhaps I should clarify  a bit more about "whining" regarding the games that are available.   Again, with respect to the individual gamer, one group will whine about how a game is a wow-clone, yet there would be an equally large contingent (perhaps larger) that would complain that it "strayed too far from the norm" and thus it's not worth the trouble of learning or adapting one's playstyle.  

 

Example:  Tera.  While it follows most standard MMO concepts, it removes autotarget completely.  That both irritated a lot of gamers and excited a lot of gamers.  Some felt that it was good because beating someone in a pvp encounter wasn't based nearly as much on gear and level, but incorporated some skill that comes along with the FPS genre.   Others felt that it nullifies a great deal of work that they put into getting better gear and higher level.  If Tera found a way to incorporate autotarget tomorrow, they would anger one contingent (the larger one that has stuck around to continue playing) and probably lose more gamers than they would add.

 

I never said you can't whine about McDonalds.  My point is simple, speak with your wallet.  If you don't like McDonalds, go spend your money at Wendy's, Burger King, or Jack in the Box.  Standing outside of McD's and griping to everyone who goes in  the door about how much it 'sux' isn't going to change anything, let alone improve their menu.

  KamiKazeTG

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/05
Posts: 58

6/26/12 8:53:59 AM#15

That's really the point here though...no one is standing outside the door of the company complaining (or "whining" as you put it). We're on a MMORPG site talking about MMORPGs and what we think about them. That's the whole entire reason this website exists. Yes, there are more negative comments than positive. But, that is simply because people are more likely to post something when they have an extremely negative emotion about something than when they have a good or neutral one (There was actually a scientific study I read about that but I can't find the link to it at the moment).

Though, I can think of a few gaming companies that I would love to actively protest outside their building.

People do speak with their wallets but, this website isn't for that. If you don't want to read people's opinions about games (good or bad), you probably should avoid forums dedicated to talking about people's opinions about games.

  Rommie10-284

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 204

Really Uncle Bugs?

Spirit of Fair Play is slain by Online Community!

6/26/12 9:23:27 AM#16
Originally posted by 11Bomber29
my advice is to play whatever you are able to find enjoyable, but until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

I hope you realize how ridiculous that reads when it is isolated.  If MMOs were static, you might get away with this, but they can and do change quite a bit.  I can certainly whine that feature A, which worked great before Patch O' Doom, sucks rocks now without having "MMO Developer" in my resume.

Avatars are people too

  11Bomber29

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/12
Posts: 5

 
OP  6/26/12 9:36:24 AM#17

I'm assuming you know that I was talking about an earlier poster's comparison to McDonalds, and standing out in the front of one was related entirely to his/her analogy.  I wouldn't expect the ToR gamers in Austin to go protest in front of Bioware's front door, but if it makes them feel better,  I say go for it.  Even when the dev's change a handful of things, they ultimately make some players happier while disenfranchising others.  As long as the thread was started for the sold purpose of ranting, have at it, but what exactly are they expecting in return for  putting the dev's on blast? 

While ranting/whining/complaining is their prerogative, what good does it do to troll threads intended for tips and advice and 'derail' the original intent of the thread?  Since this is a ToR forum, I'll use this as an example.  If a player comes here and finds a thread about bounty hunter talent builds, but it's ultimately hijacked by a plethora of posters who begin bickering that BH's are too overpowered, or all the minions are junk except for the Jawa, or they should have made the class more like a WoW hunter, etc...  Cutting through pages of angry clutter to find the related posts dilutes the ability of that thread to be useful.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/26/12 10:26:25 AM#18

While I found most of your post to be very insightful, the conclusion was a deal breaker. When I see the word "whine" I know I am dealing with someone who has a weak argument in the end.

a) Forums are for discussion, which is not just homogenously positive talk.

b) Whining is something that a child does to communicate displeasure (the spectrum including from wanting a toy to needing attention due to neglect), it's used here as an insult as posters are assumed to be adults (or at least non-children).

c) Speech should not be censored or constrained because of the offensive nature of what is being said. Moderators attempt to keep straight out insults out of the dialogue, but there is no way to have discourse if posters have to only say nice things about everything. Peer pressure to be positive is basically an attempt to silence dissenting opinions.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Zlayer77

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/09
Posts: 846

Start worrying about other players in a game and dont just play

6/26/12 10:51:03 AM#19
Originally posted by 11Bomber29

I could go on at length on this topic, but as it is, I am already worried about the posters who like to 'quote' an entire post before responding to it, rather than just quoting segments that they'd like to address.  That being said, my advice is to play whatever you are able to find enjoyable, but until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

The Fact is life is not fair, and you have to live with the cards you are dealt. But I know for a fact that if I was given the resources and money even one 1/10 of the money that EA/Bioware has spent on this Garbage game I would make a better one.

SWTOR is flawed in its conception stage, the developers never understod what the players of this genre wanted. Instead they played "lets copy what everyone ells is doing" Card and it backfired like so many times before.

SWTOR is not the first game to Flopp, There is a long line of failed MMO games that have come out in the last 8 years.

Games that have seen success are small budget innovating titles like Minecraft, World of Tanks and league of legends. None of them are real MMOs but they are Innovating in their own way. People dont want to play CLONE games, they want something new, and this should be the first thing that is Adressed when you start out making a game like this.

Innovation when it comes to the Idé behind a game can go a long way to making it a success....  The most interesting news I have heard in the past years is that CCP is going to have some sort of Perma death in their upcoming title World of Darkness. This fits the IP very well, and I hope they follow through with it.

Shiny grafics, hype and marketing do not make a game a success, many titles have proven that these things have little to nothing to do with making a game a hit or not.

The people making these games should feel Lucky and privlileged that they have the possibility to work in the gaming industry. They should also feel humbled and show the people who pay them so they can do this a GREAT DEAL OF RESEPCT. Failing this and they get burned at the cross its that simple. Dont take shit for granted, just like any artist you have to prove yourself worthy of the respect and admiration of the comunity that puts both its time and money into the product you are making. They put food on your table they are your number one priority not some inflated EGO you need satisfied...

  Anubisan

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/09/05
Posts: 1827

6/26/12 11:05:12 AM#20
Originally posted by Charas
Originally posted by 11Bomber29 ...until you can make a better game, don't whine about the ones currently available.

I can't say I agree with this statement. If we can't critique games or voice our concerns about the current state of the genre, MMOs will forever remain stagnant and will never improve.

I'd say quite the opposite as you actually, if you see something you don't like, say it immediately and say it loud. It isn't about getting devs to tailor games to our individual tastes and needs, it's about helping the genre move forward.

MMO devs (and entertainers in general) need open communication channels with their customers/fans else they loose touch with what people want. Being critical as a consumer is a necessity imo.

Except that communication channels that are as overwhelmingly (and unfairly IMHO) negative as those here at MMORPG will never be taken seriously. People on this site love to tear games apart and I honestly can't think of a single one that isn't relentlessly bashed here. Do you honestly think developers would EVER come to a place like this site for communication with the community!? I know if I were a dev, I would never ever visit this website for opinions from the "fans" so that I might not feel the urge to commit suicide.

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