Originally posted by DMKano

 

I've tried several spec characters through mid savage coast including lowbie instances/dungeons and these are my concerns:

 

1. The key spam factor

It seems that actual key imput for TSW combat goes something like this:

Spam builders/hinder/weaken etc... abilities ( litterally hit 1 like 5 times ... 1111111)

Spam finishers (to fire off as soon as possible (usually 333333333 or 444444444)

I do have a programmable keyboard that could do all of this with a hit of one key - but still maybe some kind of a ability queue type system would greatly help - currently TSW combat will only wear out your fingers/hand/wrists and your 1-7 keys.

 

2. Movement in combat - you know the game tells you to move constantly - but what does it really come down to 99% of the time is this:

 

circle strafe while spamming attack builders and then fire off finishers.

 

The game might have 500 skills, but all you'll be doing in TSW is circle strafing and abusing your 1-7 keys (the 1-4 most likely will get the most abuse)

 

The game has an amazing setting, the story is interesting, the questing is interesting - but combat is what you end up doing in games like TSW for more than 90% of your playtime, so that's really what matters. 

 

I am just wondering for how many months will masses of players be willing to circle-strafe+spam keys? I bet you Funcom is wondering the same thing.....

Join the Military if you want real world combat, maybe you could say hello to my Husband in Afghanistan for me since I have not seen him for 13 months and tell him that you need more hardcore combat in video games see what response you get lol

Originally posted by Saxonblade

Join the Military if you want real world combat, maybe you could say hello to my Husband in Afghanistan for me since I have not seen him for 13 months and tell him that you need more hardcore combat in video games see what response you get lol

Haha - well now I can tell you that most of the time what you do overseas is - waiting. Waiting for orders to come in, waiting for X, Y Z .. combat is something that a very small % of our military actually ever experiences (and that's a good thing - I am glad this is the case).  

FInding things to do while you're waiting - that's the hardest time about being deployed oversees, as most of the stuff you do is just busy work so that you don't go completely insane from WAITING for something to happen.

All that said - I am not a big fan of comparing real combat to this *pixel fightin* as that's what games really are - we're just moving pixels on screen. I've lost friends in combat so I don't really want to go there.

I hate that there are only 7 abilities and i hate the f***ing global cooldown system that seems to be the trend in recent MMOs, between those two factors - tons of spam.

that being said, i think the spam lessens in later decks.  For example, from what i'm planning to run, my actives will be:

1pt  ST builder

1pt  AE builder  that sometimes builds 2pts 

weap 1 consumer

weap 2 consumer

Ability or additional consumer

Ability 

Ability 

Do depending on how many resources i've built, i will not be spamming my build 5 times in a row and even when i do need to do 5 hits of builder, i'll probably be working in my other abilities in between.  Plus if you have  a double builder, it should be more efficient to hit a consumer after 2 builds.

I mean, this is all very theoretical, but that's the plan so far.

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Saxonblade

Join the Military if you want real world combat, maybe you could say hello to my Husband in Afghanistan for me since I have not seen him for 13 months and tell him that you need more hardcore combat in video games see what response you get lol

 

Haha - well now I can tell you that most of the time what you do overseas is - waiting. Waiting for orders to come in, waiting for X, Y Z .. combat is something that a very small % of our military actually ever experiences (and that's a good thing - I am glad this is the case).  

FInding things to do while you're waiting - that's the hardest time about being deployed oversees, as most of the stuff you do is just busy work so that you don't go completely insane from WAITING for something to happen.

 

All that said - I am not a big fan of comparing real combat to this *pixel fightin* as that's what games really are - we're just moving pixels on screen. I've lost friends in combat so I don't really want to go there.

 

yeah his 3 purple hearts were from waiting just saying, he spends 5/7 days a week in the field, while I do get the hurry up and wait game as I have seen it happen, unfortunately he is in a combat unit and does not wait much.

 That said which is very much off topic, I do understand what you are trying to say but I don't agree 100% afterall it is a game meant to be enjoyed my the masses not a select few. Most games you do the same, I played a Rogue in wow and for years it was SS times envis keep SnD up not a hard rotation. Same with Rift spam a few abilities and you are golden, here I found it to be a bit refreshing and there are passives that do grant extra builder points so there is a bit more though process,not much but a little more for me.

I think the combat would be enjoyable if you could equip multiple "decks" at the same time and be able to swap through them on the fly.  You can obtain a large variety of skills, but when you finally select what you want, it is somewhat limited (active/passive).  That's the feeling I had anyways...

Originally posted by rpgalon

 

I'm playing the CB for almost 3 months, already pre-ordered, I love the combat, maybe it is because I'm using a build that not only is good, but also fun.

your build probably sux if you think that it is all TSW is about, or you didn't even left Kingsmouth.

Is there much difference from one build to the next? no

You are going to get a single target builder, you are going to get a single target spender for one weapon, you are going to get some AoE, either builder or spender.  You are going to get a secondary weapon spender, which may be the AoE.

So you have 3-4 free slots.  You are going to get some type of CC likely a stun.  You are also going to get a gap closer if melee or a snare if ranged.  All on long cooldown > 30 seconds.

You have one or zero more abilities and I always get a 100 damage heal, it may take 40 casts to heal up but since AI is bad you can kite around spamming it on many mobs.

After all of that most builds play the same.  I can kill 99% of content, with two buttons, most of the quests are go kill 10 mobs so I face roll those tiers with two buttons.

After that, melee weapons are very boring compared to say world of warcraft, ranged weapons are a bit better.  However, combat AI and gameplay feels like a 13 year old game, everquest.  The mobs clump up and a the ranged run off and after that it is based on your stats more than anything else, while having the little animation of the NPCs.  I can't tell what the MoBs are doing half the time and only need to move when there is a white marker on the ground.

For years we joked about class balance, to make every class balanced they would need to be the same and this is as close as you can get to that. Swapping one synergy to the next, one weapon to the next, one build to the next my killing power is + or - 15% at max.  I noticed this when swaped builds today and didn't pick up any passives.

Originally posted by Saxonblade

 

 That said which is very much off topic, I do understand what you are trying to say but I don't agree 100% afterall it is a game meant to be enjoyed my the masses not a select few. Most games you do the same, I played a Rogue in wow and for years it was SS times envis keep SnD up not a hard rotation. Same with Rift spam a few abilities and you are golden, here I found it to be a bit refreshing and there are passives that do grant extra builder points so there is a bit more though process,not much but a little more for me.

Point taken - and that is a good one. I can see how you could look at TSW as sort of a "I just want to turn my brain off and shoot some stuff" game - I guess it does that very well. It's engaging just enough to keep you alrert and engaged but it doesn't go anywhere too involved as far as combat is concerned.

I am a big fan of Rift, well to be more precise I am big fan of Trion as they know how to pump out content and constantly change the game to keep it fresh. But yeah, the combat system was straight forward and macroable (on purpose - gotta give it to Trion again!) - they have a good understanding of how to make it beneficial for the player. 

More developers could learn from them....

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by Saxonblade

 

 That said which is very much off topic, I do understand what you are trying to say but I don't agree 100% afterall it is a game meant to be enjoyed my the masses not a select few. Most games you do the same, I played a Rogue in wow and for years it was SS times envis keep SnD up not a hard rotation. Same with Rift spam a few abilities and you are golden, here I found it to be a bit refreshing and there are passives that do grant extra builder points so there is a bit more though process,not much but a little more for me.

 

Point taken - and that is a good one. I can see how you could look at TSW as sort of a "I just want to turn my brain off and shoot some stuff" game - I guess it does that very well. It's engaging just enough to keep you alrert and engaged but it doesn't go anywhere too involved as far as combat is concerned.

I am a big fan of Rift, well to be more precise I am big fan of Trion as they know how to pump out content and constantly change the game to keep it fresh. But yeah, the combat system was straight forward and macroable (on purpose - gotta give it to Trion again!) - they have a good understanding of how to make it beneficial for the player. 

More developers could learn from them....

 

 

I think I had like 10 lines (some more some less) in my combat macros, it did make life easy lol

Originally posted by tares

For years we joked about class balance, to make every class balanced they would need to be the same and this is as close as you can get to that. Swapping one synergy to the next, one weapon to the next, one build to the next my killing power is + or - 15% at max.  I noticed this when swaped builds today and didn't pick up any passives.

 

This was one of those "what if...." questions that I discussed with my friends the other day.

Let's face it - the skill wheel is one of the most intrguing aspects of TSW - what if all of these different combinations lead to pretty much the same result?

This is the question that came up - and it's interesting that you are bringing up the same point. If that is the case end game - then the whole 500 skills and all of those endless combinations - it just ends up being a bunch of the same thing, which would be really sad.

Originally posted by steveys19

I think the combat would be enjoyable if you could equip multiple "decks" at the same time and be able to swap through them on the fly.  You can obtain a large variety of skills, but when you finally select what you want, it is somewhat limited (active/passive).  That's the feeling I had anyways...

You can, you save your builds and equipment and can change anytime you want with the click of a button. I don't know of any other game that allows so many builds available with the lcik of a button.

i.e. I have a Hammer/Swords build saved for melee, I have a pistols/shottie build for ranged dps and snares, I have a blood pistols for healing soo many options

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by rpgalon

 

I'm playing the CB for almost 3 months, already pre-ordered, I love the combat, maybe it is because I'm using a build that not only is good, but also fun.

your build probably sux if you think that it is all TSW is about, or you didn't even left Kingsmouth.

Is there much difference from one build to the next? no

You are going to get a single target builder, you are going to get a single target spender for one weapon, you are going to get some AoE, either builder or spender.  You are going to get a secondary weapon spender, which may be the AoE.

So you have 3-4 free slots.  You are going to get some type of CC likely a stun.  You are also going to get a gap closer if melee or a snare if ranged.  All on long cooldown > 30 seconds.

You have one or zero more abilities and I always get a 100 damage heal, it may take 40 casts to heal up but since AI is bad you can kite around spamming it on many mobs.

After all of that most builds play the same.  I can kill 99% of content, with two buttons, most of the quests are go kill 10 mobs so I face roll those tiers with two buttons.

After that, melee weapons are very boring compared to say world of warcraft, ranged weapons are a bit better.  However, combat AI and gameplay feels like a 13 year old game, everquest.  The mobs clump up and a the ranged run off and after that it is based on your stats more than anything else, while having the little animation of the NPCs.  I can't tell what the MoBs are doing half the time and only need to move when there is a white marker on the ground.

For years we joked about class balance, to make every class balanced they would need to be the same and this is as close as you can get to that. Swapping one synergy to the next, one weapon to the next, one build to the next my killing power is + or - 15% at max.  I noticed this when swaped builds today and didn't pick up any passives.

 

what you are saying isnt entirely right, some consumer skills burn all your combo points some dont, some of the consumers that consume all arent effected by the additional points, so there using your head does make a difference.

granted you are right, I still wouldnt mind to have a bit more skill defining feel to the weapons and builds we pick.

Originally posted by Saxonblade

Originally posted by steveys19

I think the combat would be enjoyable if you could equip multiple "decks" at the same time and be able to swap through them on the fly.  You can obtain a large variety of skills, but when you finally select what you want, it is somewhat limited (active/passive).  That's the feeling I had anyways...

You can, you save your builds and equipment and can change anytime you want with the click of a button. I don't know of any other game that allows so many builds available with the lcik of a button.

i.e. I have a Hammer/Swords build saved for melee, I have a pistols/shottie build for ranged dps and snares, I have a blood pistols for healing soo many options

oh cool, I'll have to mess around with that

Originally posted by steveys19

Originally posted by Saxonblade

Originally posted by steveys19

I think the combat would be enjoyable if you could equip multiple "decks" at the same time and be able to swap through them on the fly.  You can obtain a large variety of skills, but when you finally select what you want, it is somewhat limited (active/passive).  That's the feeling I had anyways...

You can, you save your builds and equipment and can change anytime you want with the click of a button. I don't know of any other game that allows so many builds available with the lcik of a button.

i.e. I have a Hammer/Swords build saved for melee, I have a pistols/shottie build for ranged dps and snares, I have a blood pistols for healing soo many options

oh cool, I'll have to mess around with that

No problem I enjoy Illuminating people about what the game really has.

If you keep track of your procs, you wont press the same button more than twice in a row. Unless your deck is crap.

Originally posted by DannyGlover

If you keep track of your procs, you wont press the same button more than twice in a row. Unless your deck is crap.

So, for instance, you would suggest multipe single-target builders in your deck? Because there are plenty of places pressing your aoe is just silly suicide.

Oh and single targets hit at least 30-50% harder than aoes. Appropriating more space to another single target builder is just taking away another slot for any fun tools you might want to have.

Originally posted by Panthien

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by rpgalon

 

I'm playing the CB for almost 3 months, already pre-ordered, I love the combat, maybe it is because I'm using a build that not only is good, but also fun.

your build probably sux if you think that it is all TSW is about, or you didn't even left Kingsmouth.

Is there much difference from one build to the next? no

You are going to get a single target builder, you are going to get a single target spender for one weapon, you are going to get some AoE, either builder or spender.  You are going to get a secondary weapon spender, which may be the AoE.

So you have 3-4 free slots.  You are going to get some type of CC likely a stun.  You are also going to get a gap closer if melee or a snare if ranged.  All on long cooldown > 30 seconds.

You have one or zero more abilities and I always get a 100 damage heal, it may take 40 casts to heal up but since AI is bad you can kite around spamming it on many mobs.

After all of that most builds play the same.  I can kill 99% of content, with two buttons, most of the quests are go kill 10 mobs so I face roll those tiers with two buttons.

After that, melee weapons are very boring compared to say world of warcraft, ranged weapons are a bit better.  However, combat AI and gameplay feels like a 13 year old game, everquest.  The mobs clump up and a the ranged run off and after that it is based on your stats more than anything else, while having the little animation of the NPCs.  I can't tell what the MoBs are doing half the time and only need to move when there is a white marker on the ground.

For years we joked about class balance, to make every class balanced they would need to be the same and this is as close as you can get to that. Swapping one synergy to the next, one weapon to the next, one build to the next my killing power is + or - 15% at max.  I noticed this when swaped builds today and didn't pick up any passives.

 

what you are saying isnt entirely right, some consumer skills burn all your combo points some dont, some of the consumers that consume all arent effected by the additional points, so there using your head does make a difference.

granted you are right, I still wouldnt mind to have a bit more skill defining feel to the weapons and builds we pick.

Point taken but if compare a 2 or 3 point spender to a 5 point the two point will do less, like 2/5ths or 3/5ths.  The ones I see do even less but give some bonus like a synergy, adds a dot that does 30 damage (lol) but u can get more damage later by hiting a target with a dot from another skill. I am using DPS builds as a comparison because all weapons have them and tanking is almost the same idea, healing may not be as healers seem to be having issues.

Yeah if you must have the 100% best DPS build, you will take a special starter which gives 2 resources if you have none, then a special builder that gives one resource and modifies an effect based from a passive, then use that debuff to use a special spender, then start over but this timeyou build to 5 and use a finisher that gets boosted by your debuffs.  However, after spending time to plan many of those builds, the good old 1,2 for single target or 1,3 for multi target builds kill as fast and then I can pick up CC, Stun, Self heal.

Also, the hardest instance modes require a gimick, a purge or remove debuff will be the gimmick most of the time so for the combat you need more than two or 3 skills, you only have 6.

---

Originally posted by Deathofsage

---

Originally posted by DannyGlover If you keep track of your procs, you wont press the same button more than twice in a row. Unless your deck is crap.

---

So, for instance, you would suggest multipe single-target builders in your deck? Because there are plenty of places pressing your aoe is just silly suicide.

Oh and single targets hit at least 30-50% harder than aoes. Appropriating more space to another single target builder is just taking away another slot for any fun tools you might want to have.

---

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by Panthien

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by rpgalon

 

I'm playing the CB for almost 3 months, already pre-ordered, I love the combat, maybe it is because I'm using a build that not only is good, but also fun.

your build probably sux if you think that it is all TSW is about, or you didn't even left Kingsmouth.

Is there much difference from one build to the next? no

You are going to get a single target builder, you are going to get a single target spender for one weapon, you are going to get some AoE, either builder or spender.  You are going to get a secondary weapon spender, which may be the AoE.

So you have 3-4 free slots.  You are going to get some type of CC likely a stun.  You are also going to get a gap closer if melee or a snare if ranged.  All on long cooldown > 30 seconds.

You have one or zero more abilities and I always get a 100 damage heal, it may take 40 casts to heal up but since AI is bad you can kite around spamming it on many mobs.

After all of that most builds play the same.  I can kill 99% of content, with two buttons, most of the quests are go kill 10 mobs so I face roll those tiers with two buttons.

After that, melee weapons are very boring compared to say world of warcraft, ranged weapons are a bit better.  However, combat AI and gameplay feels like a 13 year old game, everquest.  The mobs clump up and a the ranged run off and after that it is based on your stats more than anything else, while having the little animation of the NPCs.  I can't tell what the MoBs are doing half the time and only need to move when there is a white marker on the ground.

For years we joked about class balance, to make every class balanced they would need to be the same and this is as close as you can get to that. Swapping one synergy to the next, one weapon to the next, one build to the next my killing power is + or - 15% at max.  I noticed this when swaped builds today and didn't pick up any passives.

 

what you are saying isnt entirely right, some consumer skills burn all your combo points some dont, some of the consumers that consume all arent effected by the additional points, so there using your head does make a difference.

granted you are right, I still wouldnt mind to have a bit more skill defining feel to the weapons and builds we pick.

Point taken but if compare a 2 or 3 point spender to a 5 point the two point will do less, like 2/5ths or 3/5ths.  The ones I see do even less but give some bonus like a synergy, adds a dot that does 30 damage (lol) but u can get more damage later by hiting a target with a dot from another skill. I am using DPS builds as a comparison because all weapons have them and tanking is almost the same idea, healing may not be as healers seem to be having issues.

Yeah if you must have the 100% best DPS build, you will take a special starter which gives 2 resources if you have none, then a special builder that gives one resource and modifies an effect based from a passive, then use that debuff to use a special spender, then start over but this timeyou build to 5 and use a finisher that gets boosted by your debuffs.  However, after spending time to plan many of those builds, the good old 1,2 for single target or 1,3 for multi target builds kill as fast and then I can pick up CC, Stun, Self heal.

Also, the hardest instance modes require a gimick, a purge or remove debuff will be the gimmick most of the time so for the combat you need more than two or 3 skills, you only have 6.

 

 

I want to disagree with you but really cant.

Granted picking dps as excample planning the best synergy and order to use your skills will net better results but right now, atleast for the ..leveling/solo play stuff, mobs die too fast and too easy to really notice, then again thats kinna a standard trade in mmo's in general.

I actually do have the feeling there will be some tweaks in the future to give a larger accent on this, lets face it people like to have the feel their smarter planning on picking skills and traits makes a difference. This actually would be a great thing, since it gives people the feeling it rewards them for being smarter then the other guy and will actually end up contributing to giving a unique and defining feel to picking a weapon.

Im sure Im not alone on this but I want to actually have the feeling there is a difference betwine using claws or swords or what ever. Right now it really does feel its mostly in the animations. I do appologise for not being able to bring it to words any better.

If you hit 1 button to build and another button to consume, even spread out to 2 weapon classes, youre gonna get kicked from nightmare modes for having pathetic dps and steamrolled in pvp.

All the technicals aside, the pvp itself is a breath of fresh air, the large open, multi tierd environment to just throw down was awesome.

I'm burnt on the rotating insert number of group size, pvp games, I like the war feel to it in TSW. I felt like I was back in Shadowbane, even more so when you look at all the different build potential.

I'm really liking TSW so far.