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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Sandbox MMOs are not really what players want

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195 posts found
  WildNature

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/12
Posts: 51

6/24/12 10:27:29 AM#21
Originally posted by Z3R01
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Isasis
Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.



Really, the only thing you can say about previous sandbox games is that those games are not what players want. That could be for reasons having nothing to do with the sandbox features of the games.

 

No he's right. Sandbox MMOers have no idea what they want.

They remember oldschool games through rose tinted glasses.

I bet you anything if Games like DarkFall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth & Perpetuum (Last four moderatly popular sandbox games)  released back in the Early SWG or UO days they would be considered the best games ever. 

 

That's stretching it a bit. I still have high hopes for Fallen Earth but after 3 months with the game finally stopped playing. It's PVP or lack thereof was enough. I like the dynamics of pvp (arena or mini-game based...I don't care but I love pvp.)


* Good, honorable, gamers will continue to pay the bills so freeloaders can enjoy the game.
* Sandboxers and Carebears are 2 sides to the same coin.

  Khayotix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/02/08
Posts: 224

If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

6/24/12 10:28:42 AM#22

I can honestly say with 99.9% certainty that if a Sandbox game say along the lines of Everquest or World of Warcraft, in terms of fantasy medieval type, came out, it was properly funded as to be a complete AAA sandbox, without PVPFFA loot, it would be a killer hit, maybe not 10 million players, but then again who knows, but still very VERY profitable and successful. Players want a harder more challenging game, they want that yet still want the accessability to come in for 15 minutes or 15 hours. It can be done. They want to adventure solo or with friends, it can be done there is a happy medium. Making Group play Challenging, making Solo play even more so, but not impossible. You should always be able to solo but it shouldnt be EZmode. Robust Housing and Guild Halls, no instancing except maybe raids. World raids and bosses out the whazoo. Areas such as Wintergrasp sanctioned for Open World PVP so even if you are on a PvE server you can find areas to go kill and be killed. A full PVP system for those who enjoy it. Etc

 

They can do this. They need to do this to revitalize the genre, and it would NOT cost as much as that abomination called SWTOR. 300 mil for that garbage is obscene.

I think we need this as a genre, and a AAA developer will soon realize this.

  Z3R01

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/08
Posts: 2459

MMO gamer since 1997

6/24/12 10:30:21 AM#23
Originally posted by WildNature
Originally posted by Z3R01
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Isasis
Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.



Really, the only thing you can say about previous sandbox games is that those games are not what players want. That could be for reasons having nothing to do with the sandbox features of the games.

 

No he's right. Sandbox MMOers have no idea what they want.

They remember oldschool games through rose tinted glasses.

I bet you anything if Games like DarkFall, Mortal Online, Fallen Earth & Perpetuum (Last four moderatly popular sandbox games)  released back in the Early SWG or UO days they would be considered the best games ever. 

 

That's stretching it a bit. I still have high hopes for Fallen Earth but after 3 months with the game finally stopped playing. It's PVP or lack thereof was enough. I like the dynamics of pvp (arena or mini-game based...I don't care but I love pvp.)

You say that now but if FE released at the same time SWG or UO released it would have killed both games easily. 

Seriously compared to something like FE or even DarkFall, UO and SWG were pathetic. 

Playing: None

Waiting on: None

  Tesinato

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 222

A lost gamer looking for the MMO of his dreams.

6/24/12 10:32:06 AM#24

There is room for sandbox games if a company comes along that is dedicated to it, and doesn't limit themselves to exclusively the PVP crowd.  I know there are a lot of folks out there that like PVP, and that is fine.  But there are a lot of us that like PVE only as well, and there is maybe 2-3 games total that are sandbox like that don't force you to PVP.  All of these games barely have 500 people playing, and have such slow development times that honestly it isn't worth investing the time.  So get a decent company to make one, that can cater to both, and you will see that a sandbox game can work.  All you need to do is give the players the tools to have fun, we will do the rest.

  WildNature

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/12
Posts: 51

6/24/12 10:32:09 AM#25
Originally posted by Saryhl

I can honestly say with 99.9% certainty that if a Sandbox game say along the lines of Everquest or World of Warcraft, in terms of fantasy medieval type, came out, it was properly funded as to be a complete AAA sandbox, without PVPFFA loot, it would be a killer hit, maybe not 10 million players, but then again who knows, but still very VERY profitable and successful. Players want a harder more challenging game, they want that yet still want the accessability to come in for 15 minutes or 15 hours. It can be done. They want to adventure solo or with friends, it can be done there is a happy medium. Making Group play Challenging, making Solo play even more so, but not impossible. You should always be able to solo but it shouldnt be EZmode. Robust Housing and Guild Halls, no instancing except maybe raids. World raids and bosses out the whazoo. Areas such as Wintergrasp sanctioned for Open World PVP so even if you are on a PvE server you can find areas to go kill and be killed. A full PVP system for those who enjoy it. Etc

 

They can do this. They need to do this to revitalize the genre, and it would NOT cost as much as that abomination called SWTOR. 300 mil for that garbage is obscene.

I think we need this as a genre, and a AAA developer will soon realize this.

I sort of agree. There needs to be full leveling of PVP or PVE or a mix there of, from level 1 to max level. That will keep players going no matter the genre (fantasy, sci-fi, etc.) Also, crafting. Crafting is a big time consumer and I still believe that instead of requiring 50 recipes at 1 second each, make it 2 or 3 recipes at 5 minutes a pop...will help with a game's longevitity.

 

I also believe that content should be randomized at the end game. If the game dev's could make it where maps generated on their own in a said dungeon at end game...like a straight line one time, then a snake-trail the next...just adding more dynamics to the game...will also help tremendously.


* Good, honorable, gamers will continue to pay the bills so freeloaders can enjoy the game.
* Sandboxers and Carebears are 2 sides to the same coin.

  ChicagoCub

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/06
Posts: 308

6/24/12 10:32:41 AM#26
Originally posted by Isasis

Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

If everyone is special, no one is special.

  Z3R01

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/08
Posts: 2459

MMO gamer since 1997

6/24/12 10:39:02 AM#27
Originally posted by Shadowlord10

There is room for sandbox games if a company comes along that is dedicated to it, and doesn't limit themselves to exclusively the PVP crowd.  I know there are a lot of folks out there that like PVP, and that is fine.  But there are a lot of us that like PVE only as well, and there is maybe 2-3 games total that are sandbox like that don't force you to PVP.  All of these games barely have 500 people playing, and have such slow development times that honestly it isn't worth investing the time.  So get a decent company to make one, that can cater to both, and you will see that a sandbox game can work.  All you need to do is give the players the tools to have fun, we will do the rest.

The secret world offers a flexible skill system, No levels and its filled with wonderful Pve content and people still hate it.

TSW is as close as you will get to a Hybrid best of both worlds scenario and people overlook all the positives and boil the game down to a crap game due to some janky animations lol.

I've been on this forum for a long time. I've seen these guys blast wonderful games like Ryzom (a sandbox that offers pve content) They blast Eve ( a sandbox that lets you pve 100% of the time if you want). 

Honestly the games were given to us and we as a community rejected them because we can't put down the rose colored glasses and realize those older games weren't very good.

Playing: None

Waiting on: None

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

6/24/12 10:43:41 AM#28

Whats missing is a sandbox game with STRUCTURED non full loot pvp, not the gankfests we have today.  Open world, exploration, world building, crafting that uses the tooth you yank out of something dead etc,etc.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12688

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/24/12 10:44:12 AM#29
Originally posted by Z3R01

Seriously compared to something like FE or even DarkFall, UO and SWG were pathetic. 

I can see the point with FE, but to say that about Darkfall leads me to believe that you either didn't do anything other than PKing inUO or you never really played it. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Kaynos1972

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/04
Posts: 2323

6/24/12 10:45:05 AM#30

I've been playing MMO's for the past 13 years.   The 2 MMO's i played for the most times are sandbox.   Asheron's Call from 1999 to 2004, Anarchy Online 2002 to 2006.  The only theme park i played for and extensive period of time is WOW.   All the other MMO's being launched since WOW i played them for a month or two max each.  

I'm starving of a deep sandbox mmo's that's not a budget indie game with p2w cash shop.   Seems all the devs cares these days is to produce the same kind of game the fastest, make their money and leave.    I have seen litterally no innovation in MMO's since the WOW lauch.   Most new MMO's just want to milk the WOW cow, but this cow is dead, long dead for me.

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

6/24/12 10:45:09 AM#31
Originally posted by ChicagoCub
Originally posted by Isasis

Every Sandbox released is quickly kicked to the ground and called terrible for having the exact things they want and they demand another with the exact same things again. People love sandbox, but when they can't get to the top in it, they will quickly ditch it. Its like capitalism, only a few make it up top and the rest have to suffer with being a nobody. No one likes that.

If everyone is special, no one is special.

You missed it Chicago, but nice of you to slip in the cliche line of the week.  In a true sandbox game nothing can be further from the truth.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12688

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

6/24/12 10:45:24 AM#32
Originally posted by snapfusion

Whats missing is a sandbox game with STRUCTURED non full loot pvp, not the gankfests we have today.  Open world, exploration, world building, crafting that uses the tooth you yank out of something dead etc,etc.

+1        

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Z3R01

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/08
Posts: 2459

MMO gamer since 1997

6/24/12 10:46:57 AM#33
Originally posted by snapfusion

Whats missing is a sandbox game with STRUCTURED non full loot pvp, not the gankfests we have today.  Open world, exploration, world building, crafting that uses the tooth you yank out of something dead etc,etc.

If you limit someones ability to kill who they want, when they want then to them its no longer a sandbox.

I've seen the argument over and over. Give the killers the freedom and force the "weaker" Pvers to band together like cattle or hire some OP group of people to protect you.

This is what they consider freedom. The overlly aggressive players have complete access while everyone else gets to hide in a specific area of the game waiting to finally get picked off like scared deer.

This is why they rejected amazing games like Ryzom because it tried to structure Pvp. 

 

I honestly don't think most of the people on this forum know what a sandbox game is... 

Playing: None

Waiting on: None

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/24/12 10:59:05 AM#34
Originally posted by Z3R01

If you limit someones ability to kill who they want, when they want then to them its no longer a sandbox.

This is where all the confusion rests.   There are actually two completely different concepts commonly lumped together into the term "sandbox" : a FFA PvP game with politics and a verb-and-simulation based game with player-defined goals.

About the only thing everyone can agree on is that in a sandbox, the player motivations should be emergent from the rules rather than scripted by the devs.

  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2417

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

6/24/12 11:01:10 AM#35
Originally posted by Gibbonici
Originally posted by Kenze

heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

sandbox=pvp=chaos=excitement

themepark=pve=order=tedium

  

 

I fixed that for you.

By the way, I'm not a PvPer as a rule.

Way to impose your point of view, thanks for speaking for all of us...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  User Deleted
6/24/12 11:03:01 AM#36
Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by Gibbonici
Originally posted by Kenze

heres my problem with sandbox mmo's.. in my experience ..

sandbox=pvp=chaos=excitement

themepark=pve=order=tedium

  

 

I fixed that for you.

By the way, I'm not a PvPer as a rule.

Way to impose your point of view, thanks for speaking for all of us...

Just like Kenze was doing?

  Irus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 780

6/24/12 11:03:48 AM#37

FFA PvP MMO's are not really what players want.*

  Kaynos1972

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/04
Posts: 2323

6/24/12 11:08:47 AM#38

Sandbox is not synonymous of FFA PVP.   FFA PVP for me is for 14 years old boy with too much testosterone.

  Khayotix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/02/08
Posts: 224

If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

6/24/12 11:12:27 AM#39
Originally posted by Kaynos1972

Sandbox is not synonymous of FFA PVP.   FFA PVP for me is for 14 years old boy with too much testosterone.

Originally posted by Irus

FFA PvP MMO's are not really what players want.*

 

Agreed and Agreed +1 to both of you.

  Kesstra

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/09
Posts: 5

6/24/12 11:16:00 AM#40

Speak for yourself, I love sandbox completely, my only reason for not getting into most of them is their specific story and the fact that most of them are Sci-Fi (except for that SWG one which cannot be mentioned here), and also just about all of them require a sub and I prefer F2P due to financial reasons.  Going back to the story, that might be what other Sandboxers are finding lacking, it's never the actual sandbox mechanics themselves.   As for myself, keeping my eye on some Fantasy titles that are up and coming like Archage, that looks just *drool*

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