Originally posted by Nadia

 

GW2 also allows you to re-visit content you outleveled - and scales your level accordingly

something I wish all MMOs would try beyond EQ2 (and soon RIFT) and maybe a few others

Yes, i know. As i said:" If you made ALL DEs more than once". Also the newbie zones of other races you may have missed in the first run. People who dont like PvP and/or crafting are doing already more than one newbie zone in parallel in order to get the appropriate level for the next zone in GW2.  So dont worry, it does not take too long, to run out of DEs ;)

At least even this is not endless. However, i hope, that DEs are faster expandable and with less effort than quests. So the casuals may have a chance, to be feeded with new or changed and expanded DEs endlessly. we will see.

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

Does anyone just stop doing quests and story to socialize with people, instead or running, walk around and see the details of the world, etc. No, it's mostly "Area 1 done, that was fun, now finish area 2". And if devs try to aplly some form of grind, the drama begins.

Actually I do! But i am a living MMO-Fossil.

Perhaps, if we would have more interesting and meaningful metagaming right from the start, that would help, in order to disturb more people (not all) from fast-levelling. I am not surprised about fast levelling and i dont call all people stupid fast-levellers. As better the content is, as better is your drug and as faster you like to have more of this drug. So we need some better drugs beside the typical story-content in order to slow people down. But most theme-parks killed metagaming with patience since 2004.

Exactly this will become the problem with TSW and GW2: great content! People will rush thru these games as there would be no tomorrow, even if they dont believe in Mayas. 

Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

Exactly this will become the problem wit TSW and GW2: great content! People will rush these games as there is no tommorrow, even if they dont believe in Mayas. 

there will always be gamers that try to rush through any game - regardless of game design

 you can level to 80 in GW2 doing nothing but crafting without killing a thing

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/12/leveling-to-80-through-pure-crafting-possible-in-guild-wars-2/

alternatives to clearing hubs/zones exist in some mmos

Originally posted by Fendel84M

 I want the journey and the adventure and the fun.

When you have a journey, people race to finish it in a week and complain there's nothing to do.

Endgame doesn't exist because that's where developers want people to be racing through the journey, it's there because they can't keep up with the rate that people consume content.

(of course, if they're bound and determined to have a themepark rather than a sandbox, it would seem to make more sense to me to ensure that they produce a regular heartbeat of new episodes/zones instead of piling everything up into expansions)

Originally posted by Fendel84M

I'm tired of games focusing on "end game". What kind of concept is that? Why bother having a beginning or a middle game if "end game" is "where the fun is" as i've heard so many times.

Just because this concept has been shoved down our throats doesn't mean we have to accept it.  I want the journey and the adventure and the fun. If I make it to max level, awesome! I hope there is still plenty more stuff to do. But it's not where I think the game should begin.

Also:

Grind grind grind

max level

Grind grind grind

Man this game is all grind! I don't even pay attention to the quests, I just kill what it says on the map.

 

Little hint, the game will always be boring and a grind if you don't pay attention to it.

I think the design flaw is that they "believe" MMORPGs are suppose to have a beginning, middle, and ending... The concept of forever is difficult to grasp it seems.

Honestly, having levels or even "leveling" skills is another example of "end game", everyone will be trying to get to max level to get that good "stuff"...

I think an mmorpg can be designed in such a way that provides a multitude of content, fun, and entertainment without ever using levels or "leveling skills".

"Does anyone just stop doing quests and story to socialize with people, instead or running, walk around and see the details of the world, etc. No, it's mostly "Area 1 done, that was fun, now finish area 2"."

I think this could be improved if the world design was laid out more as a collection of figure of eights rather than linear so the players go out and come back to the same base as they level up. So an island with four coastal starter zones would have a *circle* of zones around each rather than a linear path away from each such that if you started at that town you could level close to max from the zones around the same base (or travel to one of the other starter zones and do the same thing). I think there's something psychological about linear treadmill design that makes people more obsessive - it does that to me anyway - whereas if i was leaving and coming back to a central base i think there'd be less of a treadmill feeling and less of a rush.

"Any level progression game will eventually get top-heavy with max level characters.  Once that happens, developers have very little choice but to cater to them and the game shifts priority toward endgame content."

The other good thing about a game that was designed this way is when a game has been around for a while and most of the players are high level then new players won't see empty zones as they level up. The higher level players will still be coming and going - even more so if the zones have dense multi-level content i.e. say the game is lvl 1-50, a starter zone might be level 1-12 but also has the entrance to a 12-24 dungeon and a portal for a lvl 50 god's dimension. The adjacent zone to east might have a middle lvl 12-24 section along the main travelling route west-east, some islands in the southern section with lvl 24-36 mermen and northern mountains with lvl 36-48 giants so again you get all level ranges coming and going in the zone - dense content rather than broad content.

"End Game" is necessary. You spent all this time building your character and want to see what he/she/it can do.

What needs changing, in my opinion, are the choices of activities. I am not a raider. My 8086 processor brain can't keep up :) Daily Quests are the MOST boring thing ever invented by devs. I don't PvP. I suck at it. Crafting is fun but can get boring at "end game" levels. Sitting in major cities chatting in trade chat is not my idea fun. There are only so many Chuck Norris jokes...

I went for years never reaching "end game" of a MMO. I have alt-itis bad and like to try many different variations for characters. For me, "end game" usually means retirement of my character. I never really wanted to reach that pinnacle.

I am not sure what kinds of activities I'd like to see at "end game", though...

Originally posted by GTwander

To me, "endgame" is "metagame", and can be done at just about any time.

If a game lacks that, it's bound to get boring at some point because the only thing to do is rehash scripted content.

I agree with this one. 

A game has longevity if it has tons of concepts running at the same time, besides levelling and xp.

The usual MMO is: get max level - to fight bosses - to get better gear - to fight harder bosses - ad nausium.

A Complex MMO is: level - to get money/fame - to get access to better content - to get better gear - to fight bosses - to get more money - to level your crafting - to get better gear - to grind skills and skill level - to fight harder bosses - to unlock your ultimate weapon and weapon skill - to become a god! - metagame metagame metagame

Or maybe I was describing FFXI again

Originally posted by Nadia

 

 

 you can level to 80 in GW2 doing nothing but crafting without killing a thing

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/06/12/leveling-to-80-through-pure-crafting-possible-in-guild-wars-2/

alternatives to clearing hubs/zones exist in some mmos

Yeah, i did read about that opportunity, which will most propbably stay a theoretical option for most players. At least for their mains.

And if crafting is the only metagame-friendly, non-combat feature, thats not enough. In some MMOs crafting even seems to be just a neccessary Must Have; lovelessly implemented. very often i saw, that the devs implemented crafting professions and an auction house, but forgot to implement an economy ;)

I dont know GW2s crafting & economy yet, but crafting alone does not hold a candle.

You can avoid some of the end game stuff by not having level.  You have players burning through content fast anyways whats the point in isolating the community with instances and level barriers and  etc.  You just end up with making the secondary post level grind game with raids and pvp grinds.  That's not to mention you get newbie/mid level ghost towns due to the way developers like to funnel the level grind towards new area's.  New players are left with a small group of players to play with.  Not good for getting people into your game.  

It's an especially annoying term for those of us who actually enjoy the journey from 1 to 80 far more than the endgame itself. But it seems a minority of players has to rush to endgame and flaunt that, and justify their efforts by saying it's "the" game, because that's where they get shiny loot or something. Happened to me with WoW and Diablo. Finally, GW2 hears us and leaves endgamers in the dust.

Not sure what the OP wants exactly. For a themepark there are very limited options other then extensive grinds/repeat quests/dungeons. This is because content is expensive to produce and it is consumed (especially by higher level players) quicker then it can be made. The alternative is no goals to work towards which leads to people quitting. PVP is another option.

I am a huge fan of non combat activities especially when the system of advancement is as high as combat is. I was a huge fan of doctors/dancers/musicians/merchants in SWG pre NGE. In fact there was so many goals that felt different enough doing it had a lot of depth to it. I think combat is great but any combat system does get boring after a while and that alternative activities are what adds depth. I mean how different is loot 10 objects that are guarded by 10 guys, versus get drops from 10 guys versus kill 10 of these guys? How different is one dungeon from the next, percentage wise?

Originally posted by Fendel84M

I'm tired of games focusing on "end game". What kind of concept is that? Why bother having a beginning or a middle game if "end game" is "where the fun is" as i've heard so many times.

The alternative, it seems (leveling content), is something that people spend 5% of their playing time on.  Hence "hail sandboxes, they can save us ohhhhhmmm".   Would you like to read our pamphlet?

That's a little wry, intended to be.  Examine the alternatives for how you spend your playtime: Alt! Level level level damn this is getting boring.  Endgame endgame damn this is getting boring,  Craft craft craft damn this is getting boring.  Explore explore damn this is getting boring.  Build build..yep, you guessed it.

There is not a perfect solution to the phenomena that does not involve playing considerably less.  And that one's unacceptable, it seems.

Newgame Newgame damn this started boring, wth, the whole market sucks.

So...another altnerative; Message Board! complain complain damn this is getting boring.

We call it "Cyclic Denial Ongoing Evolution".  Every step, beyond the first, generally takes less time.  First step, generally, has the best rose-colored memories associated.

there is a difference between endgame, and end of game. The first is what you do in game past the basic leveling experience. The second is characterized by unsubbing or simply cessation of play. When both of these phenomena happen simultaneously, it's bad.

I think endgame comes from the fact that themepark mmos are just an extention of traditional rpgs, just you play it with tons of other people. If you were to play Final Fantasy 1, you have a story line, leveling, and the final boss after that nothing cause you beat it, well I guess you can play it again if you want. Themepark mmos have a story line, leveling, final boss (until another one is added). So for people to stick with the mmo the developer has to add endgame content to keep its subscriber base. I see nothing wrong with themepark games. I feel they are working as intended. Same with its end game content, they are just 1 type of mmo.

As far as sandbox type games, people are looking for more a pen and paper type game gone virtual. There is no real story line to follow, or if there is one then its not a main feature (I am only saying this with UO in mind).  So there isn't any real end game content with sandbox games. Sand box games dont really need it anyway because they have a different approach to keeping its playerbase. Which can be anything from in depth crafting which requires players to depend on the crafters, and crafters to depend on the adventures to supply them. Clan owned cities which brings in seige warfare, player housing so players can play house, dungeon crawling, guild vs guild warefare, and much much more. I know alot of the features in sandbox games are also in themeparks, but they are not the main focus.

There will always be an endgame in MMOs.

Even in a game like Eve there are endgames. ONly difference is that you have many 

endgames to choose from so it gives you less of a "OMG IM TRAPPED!!!" feeling.

I think the key it to give people more options. Currently Raiding for dungeon tokens and Farming pvp points is as far as endgame goes. 

User generated content with interactive NPC's would be an option. The focus would be theoretically shifted from player stats and skills to a player's physical actions in-game.

There is still a major issue with npc A.I. which is, they don't have any A.I. just scripts. Making them mostly lifeless, the issue persists with single player RPG's aswell. Once we have little IBM Watson's everywhere then it's a solvable issue? Also, most NPC's do not enhance a players experience, do not add to immersion, they're not smart enough, rather, they act like invisible walls guiding player actions in a predetermined direction.

So... death of endgame is a Virtual World with NPC's that have indistinguishable intelligence from their human counterparts. Since you can't be anyone other than yourself *in or out of game*, you might aswell play the Real Life game lol.

For the most part those campaigning against endgame simply do not play MMOs except in the most casual of defintions.  The closest they actually come to playing a MMO is their endless whining posts on these forums.  One can argue the reasons why they don't play?  is it lack of time or simply because they don't have the attention span, maturity or patience to actually play a MMO?  Ironically these same players yelling about the journey are the reason why there no longer is a journey in MMOs because they don't have the patience to play MMOs and they will become bored and quit if the game is to difficult, to time consuming, requires to much thought, is to slow for them or simply becomes boring for a few seconds.  Essentially if they become bored they cry and stop playing.  These players want no levels, no endgame, no gear, no rewards, nothing except the jump button.  So they can ADHD jump their way around their empty dream MMO.  Sadly there is no game that will ever appeal to these players.  They hype games, play them and suddenly relaize they don't like MMOs, then bash their previous dream game before hyping their new savior game.

thats why ill play archeage once its released

I should add, that I do take my time to level. And I do enjoy that experience. But a lot of times it feels like the rest of the community becomes so focused on the end game that your level becomes meaningless. Part of this too is the ease at which levels come now. Older games, a level actually did mean something and you didn't get to max level without some time spent.

Also, devs seem to get lazy about the middle game in the process. They focus on the end game and phone in the middle. I am planning to play TSW and hope this game will offer me a better development process and not make me feel like end game is where i gotta be to play with the cool kids.