Originally posted by Scarlyng

Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone.  That includes GW2.  No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.

That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).

Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.

Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.

It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.

Originally posted by Badaboom
I just dont understand a 21 page thread that basically wants you to justify your gw2 purchase. A) it doesn't cost a lot of money B) watch videos and decide for yourself C) if you don't like it, move on D) I feel like I just wasted my time.

/facepalm

Did you even read the OP? It's the exact opposite of what you think it is, it's asking those who DON'T like the game to explain their reasoning...

Originally posted by fundayz

Originally posted by Badaboom
I just dont understand a 21 page thread that basically wants you to justify your gw2 purchase. A) it doesn't cost a lot of money B) watch videos and decide for yourself C) if you don't like it, move on D) I feel like I just wasted my time.

/facepalm

Did you even read the OP? It's the exact opposite of what you think it is, it's asking those who DON'T like the game to explain their reasoning...

Originally posted by Badaboom
I wasn't referring to the poster. Talking about the whole thread. Just the impression that I'm getting from a bunch of the people posting.

All discussions have two sides to them. You could also say that the whole thread is asking people to justify why they don't buy GW2.

Originally posted by QuicklyScott

 

GW2 is a good game, just not for me.  

Here is my list-

 

Horrible FPS (due to beta most probably)

Skills limited to weapons, i hate that

Teleporting around, it makes the world seem small

The stupid server lock thing

Questing, It feels like a new way of doing the old method, I didn't like it at all, just felt like a grind and box check ...it was soooooo boring

Can jump to highest level to PVP, i hate that

Cash shop(although I don't know much about it)

Loading screens between zones

I don't like the way the game maniupulates your level to correspond to the content

No open world PVP

Little to no character progression

I didn't care for the story and don't really like the lore

The price is rediculous, glad I played it on roommates account before purchasing

It felt like a crappy PVP E-sport with optional, kinda pointless PVE, and to be honest I enjoy PVE more.

PVP was bland and repetitive

The whole game seemed like one massive zerg

 

But what I hate most of all, this has taken me from disliking the game to down right hating it, are the fans.  I have never seen such deluded people in all my life.  On this site alone I have read posts claiming that GW2 is redefining MMOs, that it will sale upwards of 30 million copies, that all other MMOs will become void, that developers will start modeling their MMOs after GW2,that A-NET are the greatest developers ever.  Every day I see the same crazy hype for a game that is, in my opinion, mediocre at best.  These guys keep talking down to people "oh if you don't like GW2 you just don't like MMOs".  It's very infuriating.

----Also, I bet I get someone who will quote this post and try to refute my own opinion.

 Why didn't you just post a link to http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5005715#5005715

Oh wait, I see what you did, you added 'crappy' and then some more hate prose against GW2 fans, so it's not a complete copy/paste. I knew I'd seen that list before. I think even less of it now since we've had BWE2.

My few complaints about GW2:

PvP:

Need more game types than conquest. Conquest is fun, but it also has the chance of not being fun if you are the unlucky person guarding a point for an entire game and noone comes to challenge you. I really want to see a CTF map implemented... hell they could just rip off WSG, shrink it a bit (since there are no mounts), and a few more places to LoS ranged and you'd have a fun map.

At this time, the game mechanics in sPVP lean more towards very specialized glass cannon builds (gimmick builds I call them). They basically are faceroll builds where you pop all your utilities at once and blow someone up, then you run away or die when everything is on cooldown. Its a very boring way to play, but it still seems a bit too effective in the game as of now. I'm sure they will balance this more before release.

Forest of Nif: the NPC bosses spawn too fast, are easily soloable, give too many points, give too great a buff (when you get both) and are easily ninja'd at the last millesecond. I think the buff should be removed from them, points per boss should be 25 at most, and ninjaing shouldn't be possible. Basically divvy up the 25 points based on the percentage of damage per team. If blue did 80% damage, they get 20 points, red did 20% they get 5 points.

Khylo: I just love this map... best conquest map I've played ever. So many interesting ways to get around things and LoS but not too many cheap LoS pole humping opportunities at the actual main points. Really great job here.

WvW: Love it so far, though it would be nice if there were some more world changing events happening like in the middle of a huge seige Zhaitan or something like him flys overhead and starts blasting both teams. Could add another level of unpredictability and chaos to the game.

PvE: 

Much of the dialogue in the personal stories are pedantic, though there is so really good stuff in here too (Charr stuff is very entertaining). The main problem with the personal stories is their delievery system. I do agree that the painted backdrops and the animations of the characters while in story mode look fantastic, the problem is that in actual practice, it fails at delivering a well told story because:

1) The dialogue never overlaps, and there is a delay. We don't speak like that in real life and its quite jarring.

2) The characters never actually make eye contact with each other, they both look like their looking off in the distance at a queue card for their next line.

3) Having them stand around for that long without changing camera angles just feels awkward. Like watching a badly blocked high school play.

Added together this story delivery system is only a step up from reading quest text and is miles away from the believability/immersion of what SWTOR does (even if thats the only thing SWTOR got right). The end result is a very jarring and awkward delivery system that feels like an extremely bad blind date.

The thread has been veering off topic over the last page or two. Please stay on the thread topic and not general comments about the forums or comments about other posters. If you want to discuss the forum community, you can take that to Off Topic.

Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

Originally posted by Inf666

- Nearly same combat mechanics as other MMOs. Adding in dodge doesn't make it new. TERAs combat is far more innovative than GW2.

I am always surprised if people claim, that Teras combat system would be the best or innovative in any way. Well, you have to aim your target. Thats nothing new but fine and adds more complexity, which is always welcome. But you have to stand still in order to cast. How lame and archaic is that?

I dont say GW2s system is better after all. Both combat-systems are one-dimensional. Its fast paced action oriented combat for everyone. No matter if this style fits to a class / role or not. Innovation would be, introducing multiple combat styles in one game, or get rid of this damn dice rolling in the back since 20 years, or get rid of the HP bar ... 

i am afraid my understanding of the term innovation is much different. I just saw smaller steps of evolution so far in both games.

Yes, both games are using small evolutionary steps, its just that Tera did more than GW2 in regard to combat. I honestly think that the GW2 devs were scared to do another few steps because of the risk. There is a lot more money invested in GW2 than in Tera.

As for standing still when attacking: That is needed to create tactical possibilities. Without that long ranged chars would rule supreme. You would have to introduce a lot of CC to counteract their mobility and noone wants a game where everyone can stun like crazy. The movement stop when attacking may feel weird in the beginning but you get used to it. You will soon see that positioning, timing and adaptability become far more important because of it. Its not about spell combos anymore or keeping your spells on cooldown, its about finding the correct time to attack safely. A rushing, skill spamming player will always lose to an experienced player.

Believe me, the standing still on attack is the better alternative. It makes combat far more dependend on player skill and thus fun to play and watch.

Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

Originally posted by Inf666

- Nearly same combat mechanics as other MMOs. Adding in dodge doesn't make it new. TERAs combat is far more innovative than GW2.

I am always surprised if people claim, that Teras combat system would be the best or innovative in any way. Well, you have to aim your target. Thats nothing new but fine and adds more complexity, which is always welcome. But you have to stand still in order to cast. How lame and archaic is that?

I dont say GW2s system is better after all. Both combat-systems are one-dimensional. Its fast paced action oriented combat for everyone. No matter if this style fits to a class / role or not. Innovation would be, introducing multiple combat styles in one game, or get rid of this damn dice rolling in the back since 20 years, or get rid of the HP bar ... 

i am afraid my understanding of the term innovation is much different. I just saw smaller steps of evolution so far in both games.

Originally posted by fundayz

Originally posted by Scarlyng

Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone.  That includes GW2.  No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.

That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).

Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.

Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.

It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.

Originally posted by Draemos

Originally posted by fundayz

Originally posted by Scarlyng

Fact is, no game is going to appeal to everyone.  That includes GW2.  No amount of attempting to change peoples' opinions in internet forums is going to work.

That's true, but a lot of the criticism towards GW2 occurs because people simply don't know what they are talking about (e.g. Thorbrand).

Secondly, some people seem to think it's fashionable to go against the hype even if said hype is based on facts and gameplay.

Finally, there is a lot of "Nirvana Fallacy" when it comes to GW2 (i.e. if it's not perfect then it's trash). For example, many people complain that Dynamic Events are not completely permanent or are similar in mechanics to regular quests yet completely ignore the fact that the delivery system and consequences for the events is still leaps and bounds better than the traditional quest-giver/quest-hub system.

It also seems like a lot of people complain because GW2 doesn't have sandbox elements, which it never claimed it would have.

 

Most complaints are valid and subject to a great deal of apologist activity.

Most generalizations are sweeping statements that do not apply to every situaiton. 

There are valid complaints about the game. If you're used to standard WoW combat and questing, it will be frustrating and difficult. Perfomance is still an issue from some people. There are noticeable bugs. And most damning of all, it IS a themepark. If you hate themeparks, you will ahte Gw2.

What's frustrating is the many people who come on here and say "I hate games that have every feature that GW2 is designed around, so Gw2 is a terrible game that will fail". Look, I don't like bananas. So you know what I don't do? I don't eat bananas. And if I do, I don't tell people that cook with them what crappy cooks they are. They could have made a masterpiece, it just happens to contain something in it I don't like.

There are also people who had false expectations. That GW2 was somehow going to transcend all MMOs and be 100% new features copmpletely never seen before with a completely different type of gameplay, and yes there will be free cookies. So, Oddly enough, when they found that it's STILL an MMO, and composed of features that make up an MMO, they don't care that those features are implemented so much better in this game then others. They immediately decry it as being garbage.

I've seen a lot of people come on here that are diehard UO/sandbox lovers. People that only play FPS games. People that flat out HATE features that have been announced as having been pat of this game since it was first mentioned YEARS ago. That are somehow surprised when Gw2 isn't a sandbox/FPS, or has features they don't like. 

There are those that like teh game and have legitimate complaints about certain facets. There are those that don't like that game, and have legitimate complaints about certain features. And there are those that hate the game, never had any intention of liking it,and come here just to bitch about how crappy it is. I will, however, admit that there's a LOT of rabid GW2 fans that irritate even me, a fan of the game, by raging against and generally being douchnozzles to anyone that says anything even remotely critical about the game. Wish they'd shut up.

TL;DR both camps are filled with both good people and idiots. 

Originally posted by terrant

There are valid complaints about the game. If you're used to standard WoW combat and questing, it will be frustrating and difficult. Perfomance is still an issue from some people. There are noticeable bugs. And most damning of all, it IS a themepark. If you hate themeparks, you will ahte Gw2.

 

I haven't seen hardly any complaints that  originate from  the "WoW standard"

I personally belive that GW2 is OVER-RATED at it's max. I always prefered and i will prefer Pay to Play games.

You always get what you PAY for. You can't compare a pay to play game with a free to play one. That a reply for:

""The game is Pay 2 Win" -- How? Every item in the cash shop is completely anti-P2W. Would some of you prefer to pay a subscription fee rather than have a cash shop with completely optional items? If so, explain why."

Originally posted by Draemos

Originally posted by terrant

There are valid complaints about the game. If you're used to standard WoW combat and questing, it will be frustrating and difficult. Perfomance is still an issue from some people. There are noticeable bugs. And most damning of all, it IS a themepark. If you hate themeparks, you will ahte Gw2.

 

I haven't seen hardly any complaints that  originate from  the "WoW standard"

Really? 'cause there have been quite a few.

Usually they manifest into either:

- Questing in this game is just like every other MMO (comes to light that the poster has been treating this game like WoW)

- Lvling isn't fast enough / I've ran out of things to do in a zone (comes to light that the poster has been treating the game like WoW)

- Dynamic Events repeat far too often (comes to light that the poster actually means 'renown hearts' and again has been treating them as quest hubs ala WoW)

- Complaints about 'endgame' or a lack of a gear grind.

These complaints have been heard enough that people have even made videos about some of these topics.

---

Originally posted by Draemos

Most complaints are valid and subject to a great deal of apologist activity.

---

Not quite. They are just personal opinions nothing more and might affect the choices of neutrals when reading the threads, because they are full of misinformation and just deep hatred.

Opinions on public forums are read by various people, even neutrals. It's only logical to counter some ridiculous arguments against the game. If those people can't counter the counter then their "complaint" is invalid, as it has been proven so many times on this thread alone

Originally posted by coretex666

The idea of downscaling also kind of breaks immersion for me, but it is very subjective, so it is not a point many people would make I believe.

That's something I have a hard time to understand... since downscaling is actually more realistic than the lack of it.

In "real life", a 13 year old kid with a knife can eventually kill a 3rd dan Karate master. Nobody becomes "immortal" to others because of training, like it happens in EQ/WoW clone games. Harder to kill, yes, and that's how it works in GW2. When you go back to lower level areas, you are more powerful, since you will have better gear and also more skills to use. But you won't be a god who can one hit everything while the enemy has no chance in hell to even scratch you.

Conclusion: the downscaling system is more realistic, and to me, therefore more immersive.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Draemos

Originally posted by terrant

There are valid complaints about the game. If you're used to standard WoW combat and questing, it will be frustrating and difficult. Perfomance is still an issue from some people. There are noticeable bugs. And most damning of all, it IS a themepark. If you hate themeparks, you will ahte Gw2.

 

I haven't seen hardly any complaints that  originate from  the "WoW standard"

Really? 'cause there have been quite a few.

Usually they manifest into either:

- Questing in this game is just like every other MMO (comes to light that the poster has been treating this game like WoW)

- Lvling isn't fast enough / I've ran out of things to do in a zone (comes to light that the poster has been treating the game like WoW)

- Dynamic Events repeat far too often (comes to light that the poster actually means 'renown hearts' and again has been treating them as quest hubs ala WoW)

- Complaints about 'endgame' or a lack of a gear grind.

These complaints have been heard enough that people have even made videos about some of these topics.

Talk about grasping at straws.  

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by coretex666

The idea of downscaling also kind of breaks immersion for me, but it is very subjective, so it is not a point many people would make I believe.

That's something I have a hard time to understand... since downscaling is actually more realistic than the lack of it.

In "real life", a 13 year old kid with a knife can eventually kill a 3rd dan Karate master. Nobody becomes "immortal" to others because of training, like it happens in EQ/WoW clone games. Harder to kill, yes, and that's how it works in GW2. When you go back to lower level areas, you are more powerful, since you will have better gear and also more skills to use. But you won't be a god who can one hit everything while the enemy has no chance in hell to even scratch you.

Conclusion: the downscaling system is more realistic, and to me, therefore more immersive.

I agree, even if I think a more realistic way to handle experience and a less gap between noobs and vets would have made the same thing better.

Still, I really hated the grey suicide mobs in GW1 that attacks but have no XP and no chanse. I play to get challenged and this acdtually helps.

Of course people who suck and usually outlevel stuff before doing it are screwed but I don´t see why that is my problem.

Originally posted by seridan

 

---

Originally posted by Draemos

Most complaints are valid and subject to a great deal of apologist activity.

---

 

Not quite. They are just personal opinions nothing more and might affect the choices of neutrals when reading the threads, because they are full of misinformation and just deep hatred.

Opinions on public forums are read by various people, even neutrals. It's only logical to counter some ridiculous arguments against the game. If those people can't counter the counter then their "complaint" is invalid, as it has been proven so many times on this thread alone

Very quite actually.  A handful of arguments are ridiculous.  Most are valid and people (fanboys) are making excuses for them, and as often the excuses themselves are ridiculous.

I've never seen a fan base so rabidly attack detractors, both ridiculous and legitimate alike.  It's on the level of religious zealotry.