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General Discussion  » Converting AA for western crowd...excuse me?

16 posts found
  alexanys1982

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/08
Posts: 277

WTB a sandbox mmo with WoW's polish.

 
OP  6/23/12 8:06:56 AM#1

I hope they dont mean removing features because of this dominant beliefe that we all want WoW and they know whats best.

  Yuui

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/07
Posts: 722

6/23/12 11:05:46 AM#2


Originally posted by alexanys1982
I hope they dont mean removing features because of this dominant beliefe that we all want WoW and they know whats best.

its most likely about references. There are certain things, sayings, etc, that are very common in their culture yet VERY alien to western ones. I doubt they will remove any features or change gameplay mechanics.

# A GRIM, ODD, ARCANE SKY
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  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

6/25/12 12:44:15 PM#3

I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  apocoluster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1297

\m/,

6/25/12 12:54:58 PM#4
Originally posted by alexanys1982

I hope they dont mean removing features because of this dominant beliefe that we all want WoW and they know whats best.

NO no, its not that they believe we all want WoW...but the proven fact taht they can make more money with one.   I kid..I believe like poster number 3 (NaughtyP) said...they are probably toning down teh grind..what ever that grind might be. 

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

6/26/12 10:42:24 PM#5


Originally posted by NaughtyP
I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

they dont feel entitled to purple gear because they were able to pass the login test.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  Khayotix

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/08
Posts: 222

If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

6/26/12 10:47:56 PM#6

It will all be ok, the change for western crowds refers to translation and references in dialogue and quest text. Them referencing an eastern proverb would be obscure to us, so they change certain things to make more sense and feel similar and comfortable for us. Not mechanics.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6732

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

6/26/12 11:04:06 PM#7
Originally posted by NaughtyP

I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

I have an opinion on that based on many years of gaming.

If we look past the word grind and look at what happens to games that dwell on this,you get a angry bunch of gamers arguing over it.

IMO i woudl love to see the longest grind in the history of mankind,why???Well then i know people are playing it for the game and not to get max level in 5 days then smash the forums arguing over "Where is the end-game" or why is my PVP setup nerfed.

When i played FFXI there was NEVER any talk about racing to end game or pvp,it had a long grind so it kept players focused on the entire game rather than can i get level 50 in 1 week.I would say 50% never got one class to max level in the first 6 months to a year,some even longer.The game did not have the DRAMA in forums or in chat,i never saw the kind of chat i see now days in games.

My opinion is that there will most certainly be some changes to the game for NA release.However i do not think they will be anything too meaningful becuase Korean gaming is pretty much the same as the standards that Wow type players like aside from longer grinds [as mentioned] and a different UI.You are still going to have the hand holding,quest markers,free xp for doing quests,free loot for doing quests,so don't worry everyone will feel at home.It wil lcarry more features than pretty much any game most have played so you will get fair value here.

The class design is somewhat odd/different,not really what i fathom as the best type design but this might get some tweaks as i don't really know IF you can interchange your choices or if you are stuck with your original combo setup.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

6/27/12 12:24:40 PM#8
Originally posted by azmundai

 


Originally posted by NaughtyP
I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

 

they dont feel entitled to purple gear because they were able to pass the login test.

Hah, too true. I don't really care how long a grind is as long as I'm enjoying the game. But I know games developed in the east have been gutted and simplified for the west before. I hope it doesn't happen with AA, but you just never know...

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1172

6/27/12 12:43:36 PM#9
Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by NaughtyP

I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

I have an opinion on that based on many years of gaming.

If we look past the word grind and look at what happens to games that dwell on this,you get a angry bunch of gamers arguing over it.

IMO i woudl love to see the longest grind in the history of mankind,why???Well then i know people are playing it for the game and not to get max level in 5 days then smash the forums arguing over "Where is the end-game" or why is my PVP setup nerfed.

When i played FFXI there was NEVER any talk about racing to end game or pvp,it had a long grind so it kept players focused on the entire game rather than can i get level 50 in 1 week.I would say 50% never got one class to max level in the first 6 months to a year,some even longer.The game did not have the DRAMA in forums or in chat,i never saw the kind of chat i see now days in games.

My opinion is that there will most certainly be some changes to the game for NA release.However i do not think they will be anything too meaningful becuase Korean gaming is pretty much the same as the standards that Wow type players like aside from longer grinds [as mentioned] and a different UI.You are still going to have the hand holding,quest markers,free xp for doing quests,free loot for doing quests,so don't worry everyone will feel at home.It wil lcarry more features than pretty much any game most have played so you will get fair value here.

The class design is somewhat odd/different,not really what i fathom as the best type design but this might get some tweaks as i don't really know IF you can interchange your choices or if you are stuck with your original combo setup.

 Too true. I've thought about that myself many times when wondering what the fascination is with getting to end-game as soon as possible. I could never understand why one of the most common concerns a player has about a game - before they've even started playing - is how long does it take to get to level cap.

I never saw that come up in Anarchy Online, never saw it come up in Final Fantasy XI, or in AC2 (while it was still around) or in any other MMO I played from that "pre-WoW" period of MMOs.

I have a theory on why that is.

Before WoW hit the scene and popularized the genre, introducing millions of people to it who had never played, or even heard of a MMO before. This isn't me being condescending or dismissive. This is the literal truth. There were many people who believed that Blizzard invented the MMO with WoW simply because they were never aware of them or what they were before that.

When WoW became popular, and made the genre popular, it brought in a bunch of people whose only experience had consisted mostly of single-player console games, or multiplayer in the form of deathmatch (Doom, Quake, etc). This was demonstrated in some distinct behaviors that slowly began to seep into the MMO scene, that was rarely, if ever, seen prior to that.

They all come back to something I've noticed about many gamers. Gamers can tend to have very linear and highly restricted concepts of what something is and what it's supposed to be.

You can express it something like this: If A, then B, therefor C, else FAIL.

Perfect example of this is Metroid Prime. Metroid had always been a series about exploration and discovery first and foremost. There was killing, and there was fighting bosses and shooting at stuff. But it wasn't a pure "shooter". When Retro created Metroid Prime and brought it to first-person perspective, but didn't have a deathmatch mode, the above "equation" immediately came into effect with players. The argument went something like this: If Metroid Prime is a First-Person game (A), then it's a First Person Shooter(B), therefor it must have Deathmatch (C). Prime had no Deathmatch, therefor it was a FAIL to these people.

I remember Nintendo and Retro trying to clarify the situation by explaining that Metroid Prime was played in First Person, but it was not at all a First Person Shooter. Didn't matter, because (as is usually the case) the gamers believed they knew better; "It's first person, therefor it's FPS, therefor it must have deathmatch, period." The game wasn't a failure by any means (quite the contrary, in fact), but for many gamers it sucked because they failed to think outside the strict rules and definitions they regarded everything within.

In terms of MMOs, gamers brought a similar mindset over from their console experience. What is usually the point of playing a single-player console game? To finish it. What's one of the most common "accomplishments" people will usually brag to others about? How quickly they beat it. Many people pride themselves on finishing games as quickly as possible. It's a badge of honor for them. I remember being on Vent soon after Fallout 3 came out, and someone coming on just to brag to everyone that he'd already finished it within like.. 3 days of coming out or something ridiculous. He'd missed a huge amount of the content, but it didnt' matter. He finished the main storyline, and that's all that mattered to him. He finished it faster than other people had. Mission accomplished. He never touched it again after that.

I see that mentality a lot in single-player gaming. After WoW exploded on to the scene, I started to see it make its way into MMO culture. For the first time, I started seeing people who'd never played a MMO before, claiming that "getting to end-game" was the whole point of playing one. They claimed that being able to get to level cap in as short an amount of time was the most important thing. And it still is. Every time a MMO increases its level cap, what do we inevitably see within hours? "WORLD FIRST TO GET TO NEW LEVEL CAP!" posts popping up everywhere. For many people, reaching the destination is far more important than the trip to get there.

The dominant focus on playing MMOS shifted from experiencing them to "beating" them. Since you can never truly "beat" or "finish" a MMO, "getting to end-game" became the surrogate "win condition". Instead of beating the game faster than others, it became getting to level cap faster than others.

I saw this play out over and over again, month after month and, at this point, year after year.

The focus on MMOs changed because the expectations of the people coming into the genre was different than those who came before them. Old-school MMO gamers wanted an awesome virtual world to experience. The newer, console-minded gamers wanted a game to "conquer".

 

"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1172

6/27/12 12:49:15 PM#10
Originally posted by NaughtyP
Originally posted by azmundai

 


Originally posted by NaughtyP
I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

 

they dont feel entitled to purple gear because they were able to pass the login test.

Hah, too true. I don't really care how long a grind is as long as I'm enjoying the game. But I know games developed in the east have been gutted and simplified for the west before. I hope it doesn't happen with AA, but you just never know...

 I cringe every time I see it referenced how things have to be "streamlined" and dumbed down  to be properly "westernized" for us players. I cringe because it's true.. and it's so damning. I mean, people take offense to the idea that the common "Western" gamer mindset is "easier and faster".

But then when you consider how a game (not only MMOs) has to be simplified and made faster/easier with more rewards/achievements in order to be considered "acceptable" to many Western gamers... how could you honestly argue that it isn't true?

Of course there are exceptions to that. I consider myself one. I hate when a game feels like it's handing me too much and there's no real challenge to what I'm doing. I play games that, to me, over-explain everything and I stop and think "wow, do these people think all us gamers are that dumb?". Then I stop and realize that, yes, they do. And worse, they have to design their entire game around that assumption if they want it to succeed.

Really sad.

It annoys me that game longevity through tougher challenges, longer gameplay and lots of replay value (via alternate quests, hidden or side objectives, etc), have taken a back seat. In its place, games are more and more loaded up with arbitrary "achievements" for players to spend their time going after.

"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

6/27/12 12:50:02 PM#11


Originally posted by NaughtyP

Originally posted by azmundai  

Originally posted by NaughtyP I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.
  they dont feel entitled to purple gear because they were able to pass the login test.
Hah, too true. I don't really care how long a grind is as long as I'm enjoying the game. But I know games developed in the east have been gutted and simplified for the west before. I hope it doesn't happen with AA, but you just never know...


It's a little more complex than that. In general, Asian gamers tend to be in groups. If most of your players are in groups of 5 to 20 people, it doesn't make sense to have one mob standing there, so you have groups of mobs, made to be killed by groups of players. Even if you scale things so that people in groups get less XP per kill, overall they get a lot more xp per hour than solo players. When a game that does this moves to the "West", where more of the people are playing solo, what is a pleasant afternoon killing mobs and chatting with friends becomes a horrific grind and nobody understands why Asians like to do this.

** edit **

The Western players who like the "grind" aren't doing the same thing as the Asian players. Asian players would probably look at them and wonder why they like to do that.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

6/27/12 3:11:03 PM#12
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by NaughtyP

Originally posted by azmundai  

Originally posted by NaughtyP I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.
  they dont feel entitled to purple gear because they were able to pass the login test.
Hah, too true. I don't really care how long a grind is as long as I'm enjoying the game. But I know games developed in the east have been gutted and simplified for the west before. I hope it doesn't happen with AA, but you just never know...


It's a little more complex than that. In general, Asian gamers tend to be in groups. If most of your players are in groups of 5 to 20 people, it doesn't make sense to have one mob standing there, so you have groups of mobs, made to be killed by groups of players. Even if you scale things so that people in groups get less XP per kill, overall they get a lot more xp per hour than solo players. When a game that does this moves to the "West", where more of the people are playing solo, what is a pleasant afternoon killing mobs and chatting with friends becomes a horrific grind and nobody understands why Asians like to do this.

** edit **

The Western players who like the "grind" aren't doing the same thing as the Asian players. Asian players would probably look at them and wonder why they like to do that.

 

Oh for sure. I completely agree.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Nje1982

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/12
Posts: 3

7/11/12 3:10:06 AM#13
One good example of what the dev team maybe refering to is in a game called Perfect World. I played on a EU server that was very poorly translated, way back before PWI was ever released. In the EU version the main city was called "Ancient Dragon City", which is translated from some word in the asian version that I can't pronounce or spell. In the americanized version, known as PWI (perfect world international), the main city is called Arkasuar.

For some reason the dev team though americans would like Arkasuar over Ancient Dragon City. Don't ask me why lol because, I don't know. You guys are making this way to complicated. It IS as simple as what I wrote. These asian dudes rock hardcore at writing MMOs.
  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

7/11/12 3:12:54 AM#14
Originally posted by alexanys1982

I hope they dont mean removing features because of this dominant beliefe that we all want WoW and they know whats best.

I think it's becoming pretty obvious that WoW is not what everyone wants anymore. I don't think publishers and devs are as blind and deaf to the people as they are made out to be. 

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

7/11/12 9:16:29 AM#15
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by NaughtyP
Originally posted by azmundai

 


Originally posted by NaughtyP
I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

 

they dont feel entitled to purple gear because they were able to pass the login test.

Hah, too true. I don't really care how long a grind is as long as I'm enjoying the game. But I know games developed in the east have been gutted and simplified for the west before. I hope it doesn't happen with AA, but you just never know...

 I cringe every time I see it referenced how things have to be "streamlined" and dumbed down  to be properly "westernized" for us players. I cringe because it's true.. and it's so damning. I mean, people take offense to the idea that the common "Western" gamer mindset is "easier and faster".

But then when you consider how a game (not only MMOs) has to be simplified and made faster/easier with more rewards/achievements in order to be considered "acceptable" to many Western gamers... how could you honestly argue that it isn't true?

Of course there are exceptions to that. I consider myself one. I hate when a game feels like it's handing me too much and there's no real challenge to what I'm doing. I play games that, to me, over-explain everything and I stop and think "wow, do these people think all us gamers are that dumb?". Then I stop and realize that, yes, they do. And worse, they have to design their entire game around that assumption if they want it to succeed.

Really sad.

It annoys me that game longevity through tougher challenges, longer gameplay and lots of replay value (via alternate quests, hidden or side objectives, etc), have taken a back seat. In its place, games are more and more loaded up with arbitrary "achievements" for players to spend their time going after.

100% agree

 

  BrainDeadG

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/07/12
Posts: 31

7/12/12 8:21:14 AM#16
Originally posted by kantseeme
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by NaughtyP
Originally posted by azmundai

 


Originally posted by NaughtyP
I could see them adjusting numbers a little bit too. Sometimes games produced for an asian market have lengthier grinds, because apparently that culture enjoys those things a little more than the western audience. But I don't really know if this game will do that.

 

they dont feel entitled to purple gear because they were able to pass the login test.

Hah, too true. I don't really care how long a grind is as long as I'm enjoying the game. But I know games developed in the east have been gutted and simplified for the west before. I hope it doesn't happen with AA, but you just never know...

 I cringe every time I see it referenced how things have to be "streamlined" and dumbed down  to be properly "westernized" for us players. I cringe because it's true.. and it's so damning. I mean, people take offense to the idea that the common "Western" gamer mindset is "easier and faster".

But then when you consider how a game (not only MMOs) has to be simplified and made faster/easier with more rewards/achievements in order to be considered "acceptable" to many Western gamers... how could you honestly argue that it isn't true?

Of course there are exceptions to that. I consider myself one. I hate when a game feels like it's handing me too much and there's no real challenge to what I'm doing. I play games that, to me, over-explain everything and I stop and think "wow, do these people think all us gamers are that dumb?". Then I stop and realize that, yes, they do. And worse, they have to design their entire game around that assumption if they want it to succeed.

Really sad.

It annoys me that game longevity through tougher challenges, longer gameplay and lots of replay value (via alternate quests, hidden or side objectives, etc), have taken a back seat. In its place, games are more and more loaded up with arbitrary "achievements" for players to spend their time going after.

100% agree

 


Couldn't agree more. Gaming isn't what it use to be...