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The Secret World

The Secret World 

General Discussion  » The result was just a disappointment

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62 posts found
  User Deleted
6/22/12 1:13:55 PM#41
Originally posted by MosesZD

Ever play Go?    White tiles.   Black tiles.   19x19 board.   Take turns placing tiles to capture area and opponent tiles.  Simple to learn, takes a life-time to master.   As Go illustrates, simplicity in design can often offer far more complexity than complexity in design that ultimately leads to a paucity of choices because the complexity of the rule-set and options ultimately constrains optimal strategies into a few "win button" scenarios.    In TSW I find the simplicity concept, from limited play,  to be carried-forward, to a great extent, in the skill/combat system.    

This is my impression after spending significant time in TSW.  My issue is and has always been the animations.  It has nothing to do specifically to the combat or its mechanics.  It has always been the visual representation of that, which they've improved.  I wouldn't say to the point that would make me 100% happy though.

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

6/22/12 1:46:38 PM#42
These games with 40 odd abilities just end up getting macroed to hell anyway.
  DarkDemon69

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/12
Posts: 176

6/22/12 5:03:41 PM#43
Originally posted by karmath

The system is pretty much Rifts system, just with a wheel rather than a tree.

I really dont know why people seem to not listen/call troll to me and others wo say blantanly obvious things months beforehand, then cry foul at launch or the last marketing beta. 

This I got flamed for speaking the truth, its just a round skill tree nothing innovative at all.

  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

 
OP  6/22/12 5:14:43 PM#44
Originally posted by ShakyMo
These games with 40 odd abilities just end up getting macroed to hell anyway.

I disagree.

There was a time up until early wrath when poor macro design did allow rotations to work flawlessly as single macros. The problem was that if an ability wasn't ready, it just went to the next ability on the list.

Still, only bad/lazy players did this. The problem with relying on this is that you sometimes needed to save an ablity for a specific point to silence a boss or pick up adds, etc.

Once they changed it (and glad they did), macroing to a single button or two was inefficient and unreliable. Prot Paladin ended up with 19 abilities, excluding seals, auras, righteous fury, that it used regularly. They didn't ALL need to be used every fight but  you didn't need to worry that having them on your bar was costing a slot for something that might better serve a fight.

Some people, such as protection warriors, did run two nearly identical specs once dual-spec was introduced but these were typically min-maxers to extremes. They went to Lich King or Heroic Gormok with Safeguard Intervene even though they didn't do most fights with it.

Don't mind me, please, for using WoW as an example. I can as easily use FFXI as an example, but at least 20x as many people are familiar with the workings of WoW.

In all my classes, each ability that I wanted to use got an ability in its own spot. Now some of them did also cancel the ability if I pressed it twice, but that was just intelligent. I'll confess that I have tried one button macros and was horrified that people were settling for the inefficiency in favor of laziness.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  Blacknd

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 626

6/22/12 5:16:43 PM#45
Originally posted by DarkDemon69
Originally posted by karmath

The system is pretty much Rifts system, just with a wheel rather than a tree.

I really dont know why people seem to not listen/call troll to me and others wo say blantanly obvious things months beforehand, then cry foul at launch or the last marketing beta. 

This I got flamed for speaking the truth, its just a round skill tree nothing innovative at all.

Rift had classes. 4 of them.

Really if you can't see how that's different than no classes.. Fuck.

Beyond helping.

It's more like GW and GW2 than anything due to the amount of skills you can actually use at any given time.

.. But in a good way.

  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

 
OP  6/22/12 5:17:27 PM#46
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by MosesZD

Ever play Go?    White tiles.   Black tiles.   19x19 board.   Take turns placing tiles to capture area and opponent tiles.  Simple to learn, takes a life-time to master.   As Go illustrates, simplicity in design can often offer far more complexity than complexity in design that ultimately leads to a paucity of choices because the complexity of the rule-set and options ultimately constrains optimal strategies into a few "win button" scenarios.    In TSW I find the simplicity concept, from limited play,  to be carried-forward, to a great extent, in the skill/combat system.    

This is my impression after spending significant time in TSW.  My issue is and has always been the animations.  It has nothing to do specifically to the combat or its mechanics.  It has always been the visual representation of that, which they've improved.  I wouldn't say to the point that would make me 100% happy though.

 

Would you say Go is more complex to master than Chess?

Complexity in design doesn't stop immersive gameplay.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

6/22/12 5:33:10 PM#47
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by MosesZD

Ever play Go?    White tiles.   Black tiles.   19x19 board.   Take turns placing tiles to capture area and opponent tiles.  Simple to learn, takes a life-time to master.   As Go illustrates, simplicity in design can often offer far more complexity than complexity in design that ultimately leads to a paucity of choices because the complexity of the rule-set and options ultimately constrains optimal strategies into a few "win button" scenarios.    In TSW I find the simplicity concept, from limited play,  to be carried-forward, to a great extent, in the skill/combat system.    

This is my impression after spending significant time in TSW.  My issue is and has always been the animations.  It has nothing to do specifically to the combat or its mechanics.  It has always been the visual representation of that, which they've improved.  I wouldn't say to the point that would make me 100% happy though.

 

Would you say Go is more complex to master than Chess?

Complexity in design doesn't stop immersive gameplay.

Poor animations and character models ruin immersion.

  MMOSavant

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 177

6/22/12 7:25:47 PM#48
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by MosesZD

Ever play Go?    White tiles.   Black tiles.   19x19 board.   Take turns placing tiles to capture area and opponent tiles.  Simple to learn, takes a life-time to master.   As Go illustrates, simplicity in design can often offer far more complexity than complexity in design that ultimately leads to a paucity of choices because the complexity of the rule-set and options ultimately constrains optimal strategies into a few "win button" scenarios.    In TSW I find the simplicity concept, from limited play,  to be carried-forward, to a great extent, in the skill/combat system.    

This is my impression after spending significant time in TSW.  My issue is and has always been the animations.  It has nothing to do specifically to the combat or its mechanics.  It has always been the visual representation of that, which they've improved.  I wouldn't say to the point that would make me 100% happy though.

 

Would you say Go is more complex to master than Chess?

Complexity in design doesn't stop immersive gameplay.

Poor animations and character models ruin immersion.

 

I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.

  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

 
OP  6/22/12 7:51:43 PM#49
Originally posted by MMOSavant
 

I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.

I think he meant that in today's day and age, poor graphics ruin immersion. I can see that point.

Would you play a game that released today with UO's graphics? I sure wouldn't. Nothing against such a game, but the graphics would say to me that either the studio didn't care or that it is a very small studio and so quality of service would probably be an issue.

I'd say precisely the same thing about FFXI's community that you said about UO's. I think needing to group on the journey (NEEDING to), makes the community be nicer.

I've never played another game like XI, where you just flat had to group.. I've looked (I tried XIV), but I've never found one. I'd give anything to have 2004-08~ XI back.

My best group and server memories come from XI.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  User Deleted
6/22/12 8:31:55 PM#50
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by MMOSavant
 

I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.

I think he meant that in today's day and age, poor graphics ruin immersion. I can see that point.

Would you play a game that released today with UO's graphics? I sure wouldn't. Nothing against such a game, but the graphics would say to me that either the studio didn't care or that it is a very small studio and so quality of service would probably be an issue.

I'd say precisely the same thing about FFXI's community that you said about UO's. I think needing to group on the journey (NEEDING to), makes the community be nicer.

I've never played another game like XI, where you just flat had to group.. I've looked (I tried XIV), but I've never found one. I'd give anything to have 2004-08~ XI back.

My best group and server memories come from XI.

I would argue that good graphics ruin imagination...Imagination is what made poor graphic and no graphic RPG games so great.

  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

 
OP  6/22/12 10:09:38 PM#51
Originally posted by Crunchy221
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by MMOSavant
 

I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.

I think he meant that in today's day and age, poor graphics ruin immersion. I can see that point.

Would you play a game that released today with UO's graphics? I sure wouldn't. Nothing against such a game, but the graphics would say to me that either the studio didn't care or that it is a very small studio and so quality of service would probably be an issue.

I would argue that good graphics ruin imagination...Imagination is what made poor graphic and no graphic RPG games so great.

I mean... I don't know that I agree with that.

I enjoy Terminator 2 nearly as much as I enjoy The Avengers. I enjoy Jurassic Park just as much.

I enjoy Toy Story as much as I enjoyed Cars..

I can agree though that some studios, movies and games, have slacked on story because they thought the lustrous appeal would keep players hooked (Hi Tera). Some games have definitely thought graphics would be all that mattered (Hi FFXIV).

But other games have done really well, using superior graphics as an asset and not the core of their existence.

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

  Blacknd

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/06
Posts: 626

6/22/12 10:11:30 PM#52

Minecraft comes to mind as a recent game where graphics aren't nearly the focus.

.. But in a good way.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

6/22/12 10:25:23 PM#53
Originally posted by MMOSavant
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by MosesZD

Ever play Go?    White tiles.   Black tiles.   19x19 board.   Take turns placing tiles to capture area and opponent tiles.  Simple to learn, takes a life-time to master.   As Go illustrates, simplicity in design can often offer far more complexity than complexity in design that ultimately leads to a paucity of choices because the complexity of the rule-set and options ultimately constrains optimal strategies into a few "win button" scenarios.    In TSW I find the simplicity concept, from limited play,  to be carried-forward, to a great extent, in the skill/combat system.    

This is my impression after spending significant time in TSW.  My issue is and has always been the animations.  It has nothing to do specifically to the combat or its mechanics.  It has always been the visual representation of that, which they've improved.  I wouldn't say to the point that would make me 100% happy though.

 

Would you say Go is more complex to master than Chess?

Complexity in design doesn't stop immersive gameplay.

Poor animations and character models ruin immersion.

 

I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.

Around the time UO released in 1997, it had decent graphics compared to other games of that time period. Especially games that did not require a 3DFX card.

It's all relative really. I remember playing games 10 years ago and thinking "wow, this game looks amazing!" but if I were to load up the same games now, I will probably be disappointed.

Either way, graphics is the wrong word to use when talking about games. It's not just about the number of the polygons, it's about the aesthetics.

TSW has great world aesthetics but their character aesthetics leave much to be desired. The fact that they've decided to go with the more realistic looking characters just makes poor models and animations stand out that much more.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

6/22/12 10:28:37 PM#54
Originally posted by heartless

Around the time UO released in 1997, it had decent graphics compared to other games of that time period. Especially games that did not require a 3DFX card.

It's all relative really. I remember playing games 10 years ago and thinking "wow, this game looks amazing!" but if I were to load up the same games now, I will probably be disappointed.

Either way, graphics is the wrong word to use when talking about games. It's not just about the number of the polygons, it's about the aesthetics.

TSW has great world aesthetics but their character aesthetics leave much to be desired. The fact that they've decided to go with the more realistic looking characters just makes poor models and animations stand out that much more.

agreed also this has been posted in many forums before but if you don't get the difference between graphics and aesthetics watch this

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/graphics-vs.-aesthetics

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

6/22/12 10:29:36 PM#55
Originally posted by Crunchy221
Originally posted by Deathofsage
Originally posted by MMOSavant
 

I disagree. UO was for me one of the most immersive games ever, with even the most basic 2D graphics. What UO had and what every mmorpg since then has failed to reproduce was a fantastic online community. Poor communities ruin immersion.

I think he meant that in today's day and age, poor graphics ruin immersion. I can see that point.

Would you play a game that released today with UO's graphics? I sure wouldn't. Nothing against such a game, but the graphics would say to me that either the studio didn't care or that it is a very small studio and so quality of service would probably be an issue.

I'd say precisely the same thing about FFXI's community that you said about UO's. I think needing to group on the journey (NEEDING to), makes the community be nicer.

I've never played another game like XI, where you just flat had to group.. I've looked (I tried XIV), but I've never found one. I'd give anything to have 2004-08~ XI back.

My best group and server memories come from XI.

I would argue that good graphics ruin imagination...Imagination is what made poor graphic and no graphic RPG games so great.

We're talking about video games, not board games. In this medium, visually stimulating the player is just an important as stimulating him with sounds, gameplay elements and story.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/23/12 1:39:36 AM#56

Let's not start throwing words like "imagination" and "community" around. Those are basically nonsense words that can be used to support any kind of fluffy pie-in-the-sky argument.

The real debate is this: does TSW provide a fun game to actually play, beyond the story (which I think is great and fresh) and the overall game world.

My answer from the hours of beta I played last night is mixed.

- On the one hand, I really enjoy the skill tree and 7/7 system and having to choose trade-offs with cooldowns or utility/CC to push damage versatility, I like using different sets of abilities for different situations. 

Unlike some people here who think it takes a PhD in algorithmic computer science to work out the skill circles, I think the skill system is very simple, with combos that obviously work well, things like 1 ability creates a debuff that makes another ability resource-free or deal more damage.

Those are basic synergies and it doesn't take being a rocket scientist to work all that out in a couple of hours of staring at the wheel. It is really fun however to work out good builds, and to use correct builds for different situations and roles.

- On the other hand, I think the combat is utter garbage.

The game feels cheap to play, badly programmed with syrupy controls and horrid animations.

They need to either change the game engine or get new animators to reprogram everything about the combat because right now it is utterly unacceptable for a 2012 game. Simply put, they cannot release TSW in its current state, because it will flop hard.

I'll keep playing once the maintenance is over but so far, those are my impressions of the gameplay itself (not the story, questing system, atmosphere etc).

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2993

I actually still like MMORPGs

6/23/12 1:45:53 AM#57
Originally posted by Deathofsage

And the fans of the game constantly want to call anyone, like me, who dislikes the combat a troll, a bad, or just that I don't understand the game.

I've been told the problem is that I want simple cookie cutters.

It's none of the above. I feel confined by such a simple rotation.

I get where you are coming from, but to me other MMOs has made me feel confined by too large of a rotation. Pressing 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 etc etc never equaled more fun or challenge to me. If anything it took away from the fun because instead of watching and enjoying the game, I was too busy staring at my cool downs and waiting for the next mole to pop up.

Your opinion is valid, but there is another opinion besides yours.

  Blessings

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/07
Posts: 68

6/23/12 1:54:35 AM#58

FYI, in this game you will not be pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

 

You will be pressing 1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1 oh look a CD came up, 6,2,3,1,1,1,1,1..... etc

 

That is true for healers, tanks, and dps alike.

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

6/23/12 1:55:06 AM#59
Originally posted by Aerowyn

agreed also this has been posted in many forums before but if you don't get the difference between graphics and aesthetics watch this

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/graphics-vs.-aesthetics

Very nice link. I haven't played much of TSW but the graphics just felt blocky and the animations forced. This is from someone that loves the look and feel of EQ, which much lower poly count and much blockier graphics.

Originally posted by Blessings

FYI, in this game you will not be pressing 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

 

You will be pressing 1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1 oh look a CD came up, 6,2,3,1,1,1,1,1..... etc

 

That is true for healers, tanks, and dps alike.

This is what happens when you remove autoattack.

  Deathofsage

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/11/11
Posts: 1010

Honestly:
FFXI Fanboy
RIFT hater.
Stop rewarding wow-clones.

 
OP  6/23/12 1:56:38 AM#60
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by Deathofsage

And the fans of the game constantly want to call anyone, like me, who dislikes the combat a troll, a bad, or just that I don't understand the game.

I've been told the problem is that I want simple cookie cutters.

It's none of the above. I feel confined by such a simple rotation.

I get where you are coming from, but to me other MMOs has made me feel confined by too large of a rotation. Pressing 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 etc etc never equaled more fun or challenge to me. If anything it took away from the fun because instead of watching and enjoying the game, I was too busy staring at my cool downs and waiting for the next mole to pop up.

Your opinion is valid, but there is another opinion besides yours.

I can respect that. Blizzard, for instance, has often bemoaned that players are more "watching the UI" than "watching the game".

Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Placing bets Blizzard's "Titan" will be a wow-clone.

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