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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Having followed this game for eight years, here's my summary of what went wrong

6 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 » Search
119 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17011

6/20/12 9:57:17 AM#61
Originally posted by Sleepyfish
O


I think the term SOME players wanted those features is accurate. The problem is TOR agreed with Some people and ignored the other 90% who did not want NGE 2.0 which is all TOR is.

Really a whole 90%!

Based on what? The forums?

SWToR plays exactly the way they said it would. The problem is that many people didn't listen, didn't read or read into articles more than they should, and insinuated their own ideas on what they wanted. Then when the game didn't match what was in their minds they got angry.

Not everyone is looking for a sandbox or minds the story part. some of the lists I see as to "what went wrong" are really not universal. The problem for those who like the game is that there is not enough to do once you level a character except to do another character.

For everyone else it's that it was never the game they wanted int the first place. tha'ts ok. The problem for Bioware/EA is that they thought everyone would eat it up. And that's not the case.

This game doesn't speak to every star wars mmo gamer or even star wars fan but it does have people who love it. Who dont' come to forums or are even aware that there are debates waged on the internet.

I initially thought the game would have about 350 to 500 thousand subs. max. That's about what it should have as it's a decent game. Just not the mythical wow killer.

  User Deleted
6/20/12 11:32:30 AM#62
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Sleepyfish
O


I think the term SOME players wanted those features is accurate. The problem is TOR agreed with Some people and ignored the other 90% who did not want NGE 2.0 which is all TOR is.

Really a whole 90%!

Based on what? The forums?

SWToR plays exactly the way they said it would. The problem is that many people didn't listen, didn't read or read into articles more than they should, and insinuated their own ideas on what they wanted. Then when the game didn't match what was in their minds they got angry.

Not everyone is looking for a sandbox or minds the story part. some of the lists I see as to "what went wrong" are really not universal. The problem for those who like the game is that there is not enough to do once you level a character except to do another character.

For everyone else it's that it was never the game they wanted int the first place. tha'ts ok. The problem for Bioware/EA is that they thought everyone would eat it up. And that's not the case.

This game doesn't speak to every star wars mmo gamer or even star wars fan but it does have people who love it. Who dont' come to forums or are even aware that there are debates waged on the internet.

I initially thought the game would have about 350 to 500 thousand subs. max. That's about what it should have as it's a decent game. Just not the mythical wow killer.

Every game ever made has certain amount of "people who love it".

Problem is they aimed at WoW numbers and it turns out that amount of "people who love it" is just a fraction of that number, which in the end means they went completely wrong way to reach their goal.

Sure, back in 2005 it ,ight have seemed like a right way, but thing is...you cant sell 2005 news again and again and again, and again in 2012.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17011

6/20/12 11:37:32 AM#63
Originally posted by mikahr
 

Every game ever made has certain amount of "people who love it".

Problem is they aimed at WoW numbers and it turns out that amount of "people who love it" is just a fraction of that number, which in the end means they went completely wrong way to reach their goal.

Sure, back in 2005 it ,ight have seemed like a right way, but thing is...you cant sell 2005 news again and again and again, and again in 2012.

I wouldn't disagree but would also note that not everyone is a jaded mmo player who has played since "since".

This type of game play isn't old for people who aren't mmo players. If one is a star wars fan, a bioware fan or just trying it out they aren't necessarily going to complain about killing x and y.

I do agree that they were thinknig "huge numbers". And sure, they got 1."whatever" million takers from the start. The issue is that once someone gets through the story there isn't much else.

 

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/20/12 1:47:22 PM#64

Great post OP. I think if your narrative is true, then the real bad guy here in my book is LA. They made the first move, and it was a terrible gambit resulting in the loss of two games (SWG & SWTOR). BW is the next most culpable player, but in a way they just fell prey to the time honored problem of growing too fast when chasing fame and fortune. EA was really the lesser of the evils here because they really are just guilty of negligence (Disclaimer: this comment made in a vacuum and is not meant to consider whatever other things EA has done).

SW fans who are also MMO gamers got the shaft.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2110

First came pride, then envy.

6/20/12 7:54:32 PM#65

 

The 3 major problems why Swtor failed.

  • Travel system (too much zoning and instancing).
  • Linear Progression/Gameplay (limited freedom to level up, planets in linear order required, PvP not viable to progress).
  • Replayability (each advanced class shares same story, starter planets required for advanced class, etc.).
Edit: I also want to add, that it wasn't necessarily what happened behind the scenes.  It was the actual design of the game that failed to hold interest.  It was trying to copy WoW, but did it so much worse and unfinished.  The devs did NOT learn from past MMO mistakes.  There's just so much more to add, but when it comes down to it, not a single thing can be blamed, because it was the sum of all parts of the development of this game, that made it fail.
  User Deleted
6/20/12 9:24:21 PM#66

You know, it can be summed up with one word...ENDGAME

There were no issues with the game untill people started partaking in endgame content, once that proved a bust, people extended gameplay by rerolling, for the class storylines..after a few it got boring, while the class story was good all the filler was the same, and there was a lack of variety in mid game content.

Had ilum worked flawlessly, had the raids and end game dungeons been entertaining and bug free...the game would have lost half the players that ended up leaving (theres ALWAYS going to be a large crowd that moves on after a few months)

If they could fix endgame, specifically pvp, then add a secondary 1-50 option in terms of filler quests and some extra class quest options that take you through the new content, the game would be great for a themepark...that wont happend however, would cost too much and take too long...its like asking for a whole new SWTOR.  Also the classes could use some additional options but again...too much to ask

I was by no means a star wars fan, during my initial play i became one briefly, which was surprising for me, it was a very interesting game and i did enjoy the 3 months i played...

 

The best fans could hope for is possibly a fixed ilum, fixed endgame pve instances and an expansion with a new map and 10 levels.

The instancing didnt bother me much, it was well done and did give the feeling that i needed to go through my ship then airlock then to the planet transport..perhaps a ship upgrade or the bility to buy new ships that allow for direct planet landing would fix this issue for people.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

6/20/12 9:28:50 PM#67

imo what went wrong is we got a third pillar, but not a first and second pillar.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  gieger808

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/04
Posts: 153

6/20/12 9:29:47 PM#68

I don't know.

 

My issue with SWTOR is that it is a crappy mmorpg. Great game, poor mmo.

 

They just had no idea how to make a mmorpg. They ended up making what they know, great singleplayer game with tacked on terrible multiplayer.

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

6/20/12 11:00:10 PM#69

Many people wanted and expected SWG 2.0. So much so that they were completely blind and ignored what devs and testers said. Bioware/LA/EA never said they were making SWG 2.0.  Posters in forums asking for SWG features weren't ignored, they just weren't possible in the game they were making. SWG wasn't killed by NGE, it just hastened it's death. SWG pre-NGE was a buggy sinking ship that needed help.  10 years later people only remember the parts they like and gloss over the problems. Hype killed SW:Tor.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/21/12 1:19:36 AM#70
Originally posted by Silvermink

Many people wanted and expected SWG 2.0. So much so that they were completely blind and ignored what devs and testers said. Bioware/LA/EA never said they were making SWG 2.0.  Posters in forums asking for SWG features weren't ignored, they just weren't possible in the game they were making. SWG wasn't killed by NGE, it just hastened it's death. SWG pre-NGE was a buggy sinking ship that needed help.  10 years later people only remember the parts they like and gloss over the problems. Hype killed SW:Tor.

The way SWTOR supplanted SWG created a refugee situation. The resulting discontent is visible in the population of SWG throughout its lifespan after having played SWTOR.

I agree that hype was a major factor, but I would be interested in your take on how hype/advertising/NDA affected the mindset (if at all) of those who were anticipating the game.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

6/21/12 2:25:32 PM#71
Originally posted by Ahnog

More assertions without adequate basis for conclusions. Bioware put out a good game. Like all MMO's when they first come out, the end game needs work. What's new.

 

Not really.   Not 'all' which is an assertion without adequate basis...    Making your statement ironic...

 

As for good game...   That's anohter assertion that I think isn't well supported.   I should think the wholesale population crash and 217 to 20ish server merger ('voluntary transfers' (which will become mandatory later if Warhammer is any guide)) would clue you in.  If you sell 2.3 million games, you should be able to support 217 servers.   After all, 890K games sold supported over 100 on SWTORs release.   Warhammer's 800K first month sold supported 100 (on opening). 

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

6/21/12 2:39:09 PM#72
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by noncley

 In terms of revenue, this game had not compared well with the World of Warcraft (also launched in 2005) which was a relatively closed, themepark-type of game.

LA therefore commissioned Bioware to make a similarly inspired themepark-type of MMO but around the SW IP.

[...]

Secondly, that while Bioware would make a SW MMO to LA's specifications (ie. a themepark), it insisted that the game would be driven by features that were the particular strengths of Bioware: particularly voice-drive story.

Those are most important bits.

 

1. Copying on WoW

2. Targetting for huge-revenue that needed millions of subscibers

3. Heavy-story driven single player mechanic in mmorpg

 

Obviously you pointed out many other things that many seem very valid and I agree with almost everything- still I found those 3 above those that damaged them most.

Times of mmorpg's that will have huge fat millions of subs in NA & EU are long-gone.  They MAY happen of course, but betting on it while developing and making business plan like that = crazy.

 

After all was WoW developed in mind with achieving 12 millions of subs?  Or heck even 3 million?

 

No.  I read that they thought things would be great if they hit 400K.   They were stunned beyond belief with their success.   They, literally, had no plans that they'd even hit a million when they wrote the game.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/21/12 3:13:58 PM#73
Originally posted by MosesZD
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by noncley

 In terms of revenue, this game had not compared well with the World of Warcraft (also launched in 2005) which was a relatively closed, themepark-type of game.

LA therefore commissioned Bioware to make a similarly inspired themepark-type of MMO but around the SW IP.

[...]

Secondly, that while Bioware would make a SW MMO to LA's specifications (ie. a themepark), it insisted that the game would be driven by features that were the particular strengths of Bioware: particularly voice-drive story.

Those are most important bits.

 

1. Copying on WoW

2. Targetting for huge-revenue that needed millions of subscibers

3. Heavy-story driven single player mechanic in mmorpg

 

Obviously you pointed out many other things that many seem very valid and I agree with almost everything- still I found those 3 above those that damaged them most.

Times of mmorpg's that will have huge fat millions of subs in NA & EU are long-gone.  They MAY happen of course, but betting on it while developing and making business plan like that = crazy.

 

After all was WoW developed in mind with achieving 12 millions of subs?  Or heck even 3 million?

 

No.  I read that they thought things would be great if they hit 400K.   They were stunned beyond belief with their success.   They, literally, had no plans that they'd even hit a million when they wrote the game.

Didn't they say somewhere that they needed 500k subs to stay above water though?

 

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6164

6/21/12 4:59:40 PM#74

The OP is basically exactly how I read the situation as it went a long.  And I don't mean in hind sight.  As I followed it, nothing in SWTOR has surprised me its all played out exactly as I expected.  All its diificulty's and biowares weaknesses were things that seemed obvious to me and just got confirmed as things wnet on throug the years.

 

Also yeah this whole voice driven story stuff?  I mean that came from Mass Effect.  But Baldur's Gate 2 is what put them on the map and the success of KOTOR solidified it.

 

Meh anyway BW has always been overrated.  Technically no better than Obsidian/Black Isle but less creative.  I like that they made some good RPGs and I don't want to take that away from them, but somehow people started putting them as the next coming of Blizzard.  Of course they are ridiculously over rated too, but they were technically much more competent than BW and are much better managers.

  Silvermink

Novice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 289

6/21/12 5:15:25 PM#75

Blizzard had over 10 years multiplayer experience from warcraft 3 and diablo 1/2 before they launched WoW and it's launch was horrible too.

 

SW:Tor has had a pretty uneventful launch (a plus). Had it been Laserswords and spaceships online, not star wars, it wouldn't have these hate threads.

  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

6/21/12 5:28:01 PM#76

@OP, did not quote you because it would have been a huge wall of text. I enjoyed reading your post. A little less wordy next time and some links to your information would have been great.

Ultimately I feel BW and EA have the talent to do very well in the MMORPG business if they could just take their heads out of their ends.

  madjonNZ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/13/07
Posts: 143

6/21/12 6:30:39 PM#77

OP - I think you got this right, thanks for a well researched article

When I culminate all the issues others have said about swtor and my own - it becomes clear that BW was not up to this challenge and the OP has given more insight to the events surrounding the production of this game.

Some people talk about unfinished product and EA pressure BUT I have major issue with poor and lack lustre design issues that have been made throughout swtor game on what has been 'completed'. SWTOR goes down as the biggest dissapointment in my gaming history.

Roll on GW2.

  hercules

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/03
Posts: 4786

6/21/12 6:36:31 PM#78
Surprised no one mentioned the poor decision to buy and use the hero engine which proved a total fail in open pop and had a delay due to animation thus giving the republic a disadvantage .
  Scorchien

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1081

6/21/12 6:49:06 PM#79
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Sleepyfish
O


I think the term SOME players wanted those features is accurate. The problem is TOR agreed with Some people and ignored the other 90% who did not want NGE 2.0 which is all TOR is.

Really a whole 90%!

Based on what? The forums?

SWToR plays exactly the way they said it would. The problem is that many people didn't listen, didn't read or read into articles more than they should, and insinuated their own ideas on what they wanted. Then when the game didn't match what was in their minds they got angry.

Not everyone is looking for a sandbox or minds the story part. some of the lists I see as to "what went wrong" are really not universal. The problem for those who like the game is that there is not enough to do once you level a character except to do another character.

For everyone else it's that it was never the game they wanted int the first place. tha'ts ok. The problem for Bioware/EA is that they thought everyone would eat it up. And that's not the case.

This game doesn't speak to every star wars mmo gamer or even star wars fan but it does have people who love it. Who dont' come to forums or are even aware that there are debates waged on the internet.

I initially thought the game would have about 350 to 500 thousand subs. max. That's about what it should have as it's a decent game. Just not the mythical wow killer.

    No it doesnt , they lied completley and failed miserably..

 

  They said they had an immersive and deep PvP system with open World objectives on Ilum , with great PVP mechanics and progression .... Many PvP players and guilds joined the game becuase they said this.. And now nearly  all of them have left

 

               This game failed on every conceivable level as an MMO , So we did listen and read but it was all undelivered lies and mishandled game updates by incapable ,unimaginative and uninspired gameplay by under qualified developers, who dleivered a game that is broken at its very core and is unfixable... And will go F2P sooner than you think.. in a futile attempt to save it...........

 

                  

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

6/21/12 8:19:01 PM#80
Originally posted by Silvermink

Blizzard had over 10 years multiplayer experience from warcraft 3 and diablo 1/2 before they launched WoW and it's launch was horrible too.

 

SW:Tor has had a pretty uneventful launch (a plus). Had it been Laserswords and spaceships online, not star wars, it wouldn't have these hate threads.

While I agree that no one would care about the game if it wasn't Star Wars, it's also endemic to SW fans to become angry when disappointed. I think the that if SWTOR had been some other IP it would have been received better, but would also have been low profile.

None of that, however, pertains to the reality of buying SWTOR after a long anticipated release, and playing to level 50.  

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

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