Originally posted by Darkmoth

I played during BWE1, and I'll certainly agree that I didn't see anything like a dedicated healer (although my Guardian seemed to be not THAT different from a "dedicated tank"). But games are different during Beta, the type of player is different, and everything gameplay-wise is still a huge optimistic work-in-progress. The general vibe during WoW Beta was nothing like the insta-dungeon clickfest you see today.

I think the test will be, six months in - do players consider certain classes/roles/kits "required" to do hard content? Experience leads me to believe that this will be the case, but we'll see.

Even a guardian can only last a couple hits before needing to back out and recover... no one can stand there and take it for a signficant period of time. You're right, though, about past experience where classes became required over time. However, from what I recall back in WoW, there was a time classes were required simply because they were the best when specced to a specific role. You had good tanks, and you had the best tank. Good healers, but there's a best. With no one being able to settle into a single role that won't be the case in GW2. All professions are meant to be equally viable. Hell, they've run explorable mode dungeons with five thieves or five elemetalists to make sure that they're all as viable as the next.

The problem here is that for some people trinity is healing/damage mitigation, dealing damage and absorbing damage.

Obviously GW2 has those mechanics.

But, people that are excited about GW2 and new models aren't talking about that.

For them trinity is the sustem where someone specializing in one of those 3 above mechanics is so much superior to anyone not specializing in that role, that the only viable strategy is to delegate that role to that specialist or specialists.

The alternative model is one where no one is so superior in a single role so specializing in a single role at the cost of all other roles doesnt pay off.

A GW2 warrior or guardian simply can't absorb enough damage/avoid enough damage like a WoW protection warrior or paladin - everyone in the party will have to at some point absorb/avoid damage.

Similarly, no single character can heal enough or deal enough damage that it overcomes the damage or healing capability of a non specialist character.

Some people say this make the game easier - well, I beg to disagree that having more responsabilities makes anything easier.

Concluding, dealing damage, absorbing damaage and healing, are game mechanics;  tank, healer, DPS are Holy trinity specialist archetypes..

GW2 and upcoming games have the mechanics; GW2 and upcoming games don't have the specialist archetypes, but allround characters.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

The problem here is that for some people trinity is healing/damage mitigation, dealing damage and absorbing damage.

Obviously GW2 has those mechanics.

But, people that are excited about GW2 and new models aren't talking about that.

For them trinity is the sustem where someone specializing in one of those 3 above mechanics is so much superior to anyone not specializing in that role, that the only viable strategy is to delegate that role to that specialist or specialists.

The alternative model is one where no one is so superior in a single role so specializing in a single role at the cost of all other roles doesnt pay off.

A GW2 warrior or guardian simply can't absorb enough damage/avoid enough damage like a WoW protection warrior or paladin - everyone in the party will have to at some point absorb/avoid damage.

Similarly, no single character can heal enough or deal enough damage that it overcomes the damage or healing capability of a non specialist character.

 

Some people say this make the game easier - well, I beg to disagree that having more responsabilities makes anything easier.

 

Concluding, dealing damage, absorbing damaage and healing, are game mechanics;  tank, healer, DPS are Holy trinity specialist archetypes..

GW2 and upcoming games have the mechanics; GW2 and upcoming games don't have the specialist archetypes, but allround characters.

Good post!

Tho I do not agree with your conclusion, I believe that being able to specialize is more MMORPG and immersive than everyone being given every set of skills, in my mind the perfect MMO would have very very specialized roles, you remove the trinity and add hundreds and thousands of combinations, you may be the greatest hunter, cause you spent time tracking down animals, you know their behaviour, your techniques are your own, your character behaves and play uniquely to how you developed it. You cannot go to a trainer and just get a skill, someone will have to teach you that unique ability of killing mammoths that it was developed over the course of playing the game and being the best hunter.

You know if you want to find that rare Boss mob that travels around, you will need to find the best tracker who is up to the task as opposed to "Can someone activate the tracking skill please, cheers".

So in conclusion, I dont agree that the direction, of picking up the trinity system and bluring it essentially into every character and giving that blurred functionality in the form of skills to every character is the way forward or an improvement.

All of this trinity discussion reminds me of wheening my 3 children.

My oldest couldn't have cared less when the bottle was pulled from him, my second child still wanted a bottle when he was 3, and my 18 month old has already sworn off bottles except for bedtime.

Now, which baby are you?  

Originally posted by RebelScum99

For the Trinity to be dead, doesn't there need to be a game that doesn't utilize the Trinity?  Let me know when you find one.  And if you say GW2, I'm just going to laugh at you.

You should look at Vindictus. It has all action combat that completely removed the trinity from the large party equation. Even in massive 24 man raids there is no tank, no healer, no deticated dps. In Vindictus the player characters don't even have hot bars or cooldowns. Watch the video and you see a lot of the combat involves using the environment itself against the raid bosses. In 3 or 4 years most MMORPGs will be like this but for now there is only Vindictus.

Originally posted by rav3n2

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

The problem here is that for some people trinity is healing/damage mitigation, dealing damage and absorbing damage.

Obviously GW2 has those mechanics.

But, people that are excited about GW2 and new models aren't talking about that.

For them trinity is the sustem where someone specializing in one of those 3 above mechanics is so much superior to anyone not specializing in that role, that the only viable strategy is to delegate that role to that specialist or specialists.

The alternative model is one where no one is so superior in a single role so specializing in a single role at the cost of all other roles doesnt pay off.

A GW2 warrior or guardian simply can't absorb enough damage/avoid enough damage like a WoW protection warrior or paladin - everyone in the party will have to at some point absorb/avoid damage.

Similarly, no single character can heal enough or deal enough damage that it overcomes the damage or healing capability of a non specialist character.

 

Some people say this make the game easier - well, I beg to disagree that having more responsabilities makes anything easier.

 

Concluding, dealing damage, absorbing damaage and healing, are game mechanics;  tank, healer, DPS are Holy trinity specialist archetypes..

GW2 and upcoming games have the mechanics; GW2 and upcoming games don't have the specialist archetypes, but allround characters.

Good post!

 

Tho I do not agree with your conclusion, I believe that being able to specialize is more MMORPG and immersive than everyone being given every set of skills, in my mind the perfect MMO would have very very specialized roles, you remove the trinity and add hundreds and thousands of combinations, you may be the greatest hunter, cause you spent time tracking down animals, you know their behaviour, your techniques are your own, your character behaves and play uniquely to how you developed it. You cannot go to a trainer and just get a skill, someone will have to teach you that unique ability of killing mammoths that it was developed over the course of playing the game and being the best hunter.

You know if you want to find that rare Boss mob that travels around, you will need to find the best tracker who is up to the task as opposed to "Can someone activate the tracking skill please, cheers".

So in conclusion, I dont agree that the direction, of picking up the trinity system and bluring it essentially into every character and giving that blurred functionality in the form of skills to every character is the way forward or an improvement.

I understand your concerns about blurring the classes, making everyone similar, and I heard some of those complains about GW2 after the beta weekend.

But I don't entirely agree.

For example, Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue are all straight DPS classes, still all of them has their unique feeling how they approach it.

If properly done by the devs, classes will start playing as a "Mage" or as an "Engineer" rather then "DPS" or "Healer".

About your example of tracking a rare beast boss.

A ranger can track it by knowledge of he forest and following tracks, but maybe an engineer just build some device capable of tracking its sense or some spiriti communing caster can commune with the spirits of those killed by the boss.

In fantasy literature  it is rare to find a party that would break apart because someone die or is captured or is incapacitated - everyone has their skills and differents ways to approach and overcome a challange and more often than not they combine their unique skills to solve something in an unexpected way.

I find it funny that no one ever suggests that they change the roles in pro sports.

How many years have we had the same ol'  receiver, quarterback and line backers?

How many years have we had the pitcher, catcher, shortstop and batter? Like over 100!

But no one ever suggests actually switching roles in team sports from what they've been in the past?

Oh yeah.....

Because playing a different roles on a team to achieve an objective is precisely the point of those games. As with mmo's.

The roles don't have to be the 'trinity' in my opinion, but the roles have to be diverse and interdependent.

Other games may come out with an enjoyable model which isn't the trinity, but saying the 'trinity' is an outdated model is like saying to me:

"I like baseball, I just wish they'd get rid of the pitcher, batter, catcher model".

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by rav3n2

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

The problem here is that for some people trinity is healing/damage mitigation, dealing damage and absorbing damage.

Obviously GW2 has those mechanics.

But, people that are excited about GW2 and new models aren't talking about that.

For them trinity is the sustem where someone specializing in one of those 3 above mechanics is so much superior to anyone not specializing in that role, that the only viable strategy is to delegate that role to that specialist or specialists.

The alternative model is one where no one is so superior in a single role so specializing in a single role at the cost of all other roles doesnt pay off.

A GW2 warrior or guardian simply can't absorb enough damage/avoid enough damage like a WoW protection warrior or paladin - everyone in the party will have to at some point absorb/avoid damage.

Similarly, no single character can heal enough or deal enough damage that it overcomes the damage or healing capability of a non specialist character.

 

Some people say this make the game easier - well, I beg to disagree that having more responsabilities makes anything easier.

 

Concluding, dealing damage, absorbing damaage and healing, are game mechanics;  tank, healer, DPS are Holy trinity specialist archetypes..

GW2 and upcoming games have the mechanics; GW2 and upcoming games don't have the specialist archetypes, but allround characters.

Good post!

 

Tho I do not agree with your conclusion, I believe that being able to specialize is more MMORPG and immersive than everyone being given every set of skills, in my mind the perfect MMO would have very very specialized roles, you remove the trinity and add hundreds and thousands of combinations, you may be the greatest hunter, cause you spent time tracking down animals, you know their behaviour, your techniques are your own, your character behaves and play uniquely to how you developed it. You cannot go to a trainer and just get a skill, someone will have to teach you that unique ability of killing mammoths that it was developed over the course of playing the game and being the best hunter.

You know if you want to find that rare Boss mob that travels around, you will need to find the best tracker who is up to the task as opposed to "Can someone activate the tracking skill please, cheers".

So in conclusion, I dont agree that the direction, of picking up the trinity system and bluring it essentially into every character and giving that blurred functionality in the form of skills to every character is the way forward or an improvement.

I understand your concerns about blurring the classes, making everyone similar, and I heard some of those complains about GW2 after the beta weekend.

But I don't entirely agree.

For example, Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue are all straight DPS classes, still all of them has their unique feeling how they approach it.

If properly done by the devs, classes will start playing as a "Mage" or as an "Engineer" rather then "DPS" or "Healer".

About your example of tracking a rare beast boss.

A ranger can track it by knowledge of he forest and following tracks, but maybe an engineer just build some device capable of tracking its sense or some spiriti communing caster can commune with the spirits of those killed by the boss.

In fantasy literature  it is rare to find a party that would break apart because someone die or is captured or is incapacitated - everyone has their skills and differents ways to approach and overcome a challange and more often than not they combine their unique skills to solve something in an unexpected way.

 

 

I agree completely with your analogy of the engineer solving the problem in some other way but with the same goal, what I would add relating to my original premise is that maybe a caster that can commune with the spirits of another forest where they have developed their character isnt really attuned to a strange forest that the ranger spent his days travelling, so he can try but until he acquires the knowledge you would have to find someone that actually has the capability for that specific variation. So instead of having a type of skillset one skill fits all, one good example is a skill that is common in rogue type disarm traps,  it shouldnt mean you can disarm all traps cause you dont know all traps.

Originally posted by Zorgo

I find it funny that no one ever suggests that they change the roles in pro sports.

How many years have we had the same ol'  receiver, quarterback and line backers?

How many years have we had the pitcher, catcher, shortstop and batter? Like over 100!

But no one ever suggests actually switching roles in team sports from what they've been in the past?

Oh yeah.....

Because playing a different roles on a team to achieve an objective is precisely the point of those games. As with mmo's.

The roles don't have to be the 'trinity' in my opinion, but the roles have to be diverse and interdependent.

Other games may come out with an enjoyable model which isn't the trinity, but saying the 'trinity' is an outdated model is like saying to me:

"I like baseball, I just wish they'd get rid of the pitcher, batter, catcher model".

 

And in how many of those sports players can only do their role and only their role?

Look at football (the european one) - Center Backs that can score goals from headers or even progress with the ball in their possession or attacking left and right backs are always some of the most important players.

Or if you want to keep at american sports why not look at basketball?

Sure you have the guard, the center and the forward, but all can shoot and score, and pass and drible.

If there are games that have more rigid structures, there are also games with much more leeway.

There is no reason for MMORPGs require a rigid model.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Zorgo

I find it funny that no one ever suggests that they change the roles in pro sports.

How many years have we had the same ol'  receiver, quarterback and line backers?

How many years have we had the pitcher, catcher, shortstop and batter? Like over 100!

But no one ever suggests actually switching roles in team sports from what they've been in the past?

Oh yeah.....

Because playing a different roles on a team to achieve an objective is precisely the point of those games. As with mmo's.

The roles don't have to be the 'trinity' in my opinion, but the roles have to be diverse and interdependent.

Other games may come out with an enjoyable model which isn't the trinity, but saying the 'trinity' is an outdated model is like saying to me:

"I like baseball, I just wish they'd get rid of the pitcher, batter, catcher model".

 

And in how many of those sports players can only do their role and only their role?

Look at football (the european one) - Center Backs that can score goals from headers or even progress with the ball in their possession or attacking left and right backs are always some of the most important players.

Or if you want to keep at american sports why not look at basketball?

Sure you have the guard, the center and the forward, but all can shoot and score, and pass and drible.

If there are games that have more rigid structures, there are also games with much more leeway.

There is no reason for MMORPGs require a rigid model.

In both euro football and basketball, the roles are still diverse and interdependent, and I believe it is arguable that the trinity can be as flexible as the example you provided.

And again, what is rigid about 'diverse and interdependent'? Is it the interdepence? Because I defy you to name any sport where the team members aren't interdependent.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Zorgo

I find it funny that no one ever suggests that they change the roles in pro sports.

How many years have we had the same ol'  receiver, quarterback and line backers?

How many years have we had the pitcher, catcher, shortstop and batter? Like over 100!

But no one ever suggests actually switching roles in team sports from what they've been in the past?

Oh yeah.....

Because playing a different roles on a team to achieve an objective is precisely the point of those games. As with mmo's.

The roles don't have to be the 'trinity' in my opinion, but the roles have to be diverse and interdependent.

Other games may come out with an enjoyable model which isn't the trinity, but saying the 'trinity' is an outdated model is like saying to me:

"I like baseball, I just wish they'd get rid of the pitcher, batter, catcher model".

 

And in how many of those sports players can only do their role and only their role?

Look at football (the european one) - Center Backs that can score goals from headers or even progress with the ball in their possession or attacking left and right backs are always some of the most important players.

Or if you want to keep at american sports why not look at basketball?

Sure you have the guard, the center and the forward, but all can shoot and score, and pass and drible.

If there are games that have more rigid structures, there are also games with much more leeway.

There is no reason for MMORPGs require a rigid model.

In both euro football and basketball, the roles are still diverse and interdependent, and I believe it is arguable that the trinity can be as flexible as the example you provided.

And again, what is rigid about 'diverse and interdependent'? Is it the interdepence? Because I defy you to name any sport where the team members aren't interdependent.

Its the same in American football, players, roles, packages are all interchangeable.

I get the point Gaia was trying to make, I just don't think he/she knows a lot about sports :)

Why people are talking about GW2?

Diablo 3 is the perfect example of non-trinity combat in a small group. It works. It is fun. If you put a virtual world around it, it is an MMO.

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Zorgo

I find it funny that no one ever suggests that they change the roles in pro sports.

How many years have we had the same ol'  receiver, quarterback and line backers?

How many years have we had the pitcher, catcher, shortstop and batter? Like over 100!

But no one ever suggests actually switching roles in team sports from what they've been in the past?

Oh yeah.....

Because playing a different roles on a team to achieve an objective is precisely the point of those games. As with mmo's.

The roles don't have to be the 'trinity' in my opinion, but the roles have to be diverse and interdependent.

Other games may come out with an enjoyable model which isn't the trinity, but saying the 'trinity' is an outdated model is like saying to me:

"I like baseball, I just wish they'd get rid of the pitcher, batter, catcher model".

 

And in how many of those sports players can only do their role and only their role?

Look at football (the european one) - Center Backs that can score goals from headers or even progress with the ball in their possession or attacking left and right backs are always some of the most important players.

Or if you want to keep at american sports why not look at basketball?

Sure you have the guard, the center and the forward, but all can shoot and score, and pass and drible.

If there are games that have more rigid structures, there are also games with much more leeway.

There is no reason for MMORPGs require a rigid model.

In both euro football and basketball, the roles are still diverse and interdependent, and I believe it is arguable that the trinity can be as flexible as the example you provided.

And again, what is rigid about 'diverse and interdependent'? Is it the interdepence? Because I defy you to name any sport where the team members aren't interdependent.

Its the same in American football, players, roles, packages are all interchangeable.

I get the point Gaia was trying to make, I just don't think he/she knows a lot about sports :)

This is a problem with analogies.

Every sport player knows the basics of their sport (or should). - every football players knows (or should) how to control the ball, run with the ball, pass, pass, cross, shot, tackle, etc.

Those are the equivalents of dealing damage, heal and absorb damage in MMORPGs

Now, the characteristics of each individual then determines their role in the team, but their role varies within each match.

For example, Portugal's left and right backs started as wingers and then they were adapted to their current position, but both are very attacking defenders. 

Other example is Chelsea David Luiz that is a center back but likes to invade the opposing team half with the ball on his feet.

Or retired Mexico Goal Keeper/Striker Jorge Campos.

Goalkeeper, Striker, winger, left back, etc, are the equivalent of classes.

The problem of this is that health bars and healers are just a complete crazy concept with no parallels to real life or even fantasy literature.

Likewise, in a game like GW2, despite every class being able to self heal, deal damage, support/CC and absorb/avoid damage, they still depend on the others, because they don't have infinite dodges or heals, they can only avoid or absorb damage for a short period of time.

The idea that just because you can do everything means you have no need for others is absurd, because you don't have infinite resources.

---

Originally posted by Zorgo
I find it funny that no one ever suggests that they change the roles in pro sports.

How many years have we had the same ol'  receiver, quarterback and line backers?

How many years have we had the pitcher, catcher, shortstop and batter? Like over 100!

But no one ever suggests actually switching roles in team sports from what they've been in the past?

Oh yeah.....

Because playing a different roles on a team to achieve an objective is precisely the point of those games. As with mmo's.

The roles don't have to be the 'trinity' in my opinion, but the roles have to be diverse and interdependent.

Other games may come out with an enjoyable model which isn't the trinity, but saying the 'trinity' is an outdated model is like saying to me:

"I like baseball, I just wish they'd get rid of the pitcher, batter, catcher model".

 

---

First, this isnt pro sports.
Second in baseball infielders and outfielders switch all the time. when a NL team goes to an AL park someone is a DH. Pitchers pinch run and pinch hit in extra inning games all the time. Infielders even pitch in extra inning games. In football, the O line changes positions fairly often actually. RBs line up as receivers or receive passes out of the back field. WRs get laterals and become RBs. DEs drop into coverage as LBs as LBs blitz the CB. CBs and Safeties all rush the QB at times.

It happens all the time in pro sports.

Just because a game lacks dedicated healers doesn't mean it lacks "support" oriented roles.

Which is a good thing IMO, out of all the support roles I've played, pure healers were hands down the most boring and uninspired.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Why people are talking about GW2?

Diablo 3 is the perfect example of non-trinity combat in a small group. It works. It is fun. If you put a virtual world around it, it is an MMO.

You're right, of course. D3 is absolutely a Trinity-less game. But one of the main ramifications of that design is that everything is soloable. Since there is no Trinity-like class synergy, the content a group can do is only marginally more difficult than the content a solo player can do. In fact, I'd argue that D3 groups are essentially "soloing in a crowd".

To look at classic MMOs, three Rogues can kill harder content than one Rogue can. A Rogue, Tank and Healer can kill harder content than three Rogues can. The key factor is the synergy that the Trinity (or Quartet or Quintet) brings to a group. To really replace this, you'd need some sort of "combo" mechanic that allowed classes A, B and C to be more powerful than any three of each class. I think FFXI tried something like this, not sure how well it worked.

Originally posted by azmundai

 

---

Originally posted by Zorgo
I find it funny that no one ever suggests that they change the roles in pro sports.

 

How many years have we had the same ol'  receiver, quarterback and line backers?

How many years have we had the pitcher, catcher, shortstop and batter? Like over 100!

But no one ever suggests actually switching roles in team sports from what they've been in the past?

Oh yeah.....

Because playing a different roles on a team to achieve an objective is precisely the point of those games. As with mmo's.

The roles don't have to be the 'trinity' in my opinion, but the roles have to be diverse and interdependent.

Other games may come out with an enjoyable model which isn't the trinity, but saying the 'trinity' is an outdated model is like saying to me:

"I like baseball, I just wish they'd get rid of the pitcher, batter, catcher model".

 

---

 

First, this isnt pro sports.
Second in baseball infielders and outfielders switch all the time. when a NL team goes to an AL park someone is a DH. Pitchers pinch run and pinch hit in extra inning games all the time. Infielders even pitch in extra inning games. In football, the O line changes positions fairly often actually. RBs line up as receivers or receive passes out of the back field. WRs get laterals and become RBs. DEs drop into coverage as LBs as LBs blitz the CB. CBs and Safeties all rush the QB at times.

It happens all the time in pro sports.

Yeah, the analogy was examined a little too closely imo.

I'll be a little more black and white.

I like the trinity. It is the system which made me love mmo's. I loved the interdependence of roles I learned in EQ.

Tank/healer/dps is a combat system I have enjoyed for years. Some mmo's have utilized it too its fullest, some have been stale.

In that the rules of baseball have only changed at a relative snail's pace, and is still beloved for over 100 years; the trinity, when utilized effectively can be fun for generations.

That said, I am open to new things. Bring it on GW2, Tera, etc. I love innovation in the genre.  But I'm not going to discount 10+ years of gaming I have thoroughly enjoyed as somehow not being an entertaining system.

Originally posted by Novusod

Originally posted by RebelScum99

For the Trinity to be dead, doesn't there need to be a game that doesn't utilize the Trinity?  Let me know when you find one.  And if you say GW2, I'm just going to laugh at you.

 

You should look at Vindictus. It has all action combat that completely removed the trinity from the large party equation. Even in massive 24 man raids there is no tank, no healer, no deticated dps. In Vindictus the player characters don't even have hot bars or cooldowns. Watch the video and you see a lot of the combat involves using the environment itself against the raid bosses. In 3 or 4 years most MMORPGs will be like this but for now there is only Vindictus.

In a couple years i'll stop playing mmo's then because they will all be boring. 

Originally posted by Zorgo

Yeah, the analogy was examined a little too closely imo.

I'll be a little more black and white.

In that the rules of baseball have only changed at a relative snail's pace, and is still beloved for over 100 years; the trinity, when utilized effectively can be fun for generations.

 I think that actually, the sports analogy sort of holds in an important way.

MMORPGs are mostly 'baseball' (A very specific rule set), but they don't HAVE to be.

... they can be constructed a lot of different ways.  ... and being soccer or basketball or whatever doesn't mean a game suddenly has less strategy, or that it's no longer a sport.  It's just a different sport, with different strategies and methods of teamwork.

People have gotten SO used to the Holy trinity that they can't seem to imagine teamwork without it.  Which is weird, because we've had non-Holy trinity teamwork throughout the vast majority of human experience (Including all sports).  Suddenly some MMORPG people can't imagine things any other way. :(

I think holy trinity gameplay has its place, but that place shouldn't be 'All future MMORPGs ever designed because it's the only way to have teamwork'

I have never enjoyed the Trinity system in MMOs for a couple of reasons.

First is that dungeon and raids are often designed around the model, which if the Trinity exists means that there are really only a few ways to get the the job done. What happens is that a few tried and true methods are discovered or developed including the discovery that some classes and specs are better suited to finish the content than others. The result is lack of variety in the game, lack of creativity involved in getting the task done, and very annoying outcast feeling if you are not the preferred class and spec.

My other issue with the system is that I enjoy building my character the way I am comfortable playing. If I have a choice of spec, and choice of skills and playing style I want to role play my character in the way that is fun and even challenging. Trinity systems force players to follow proven builds in order to fit their role in the system as best as possible. In essence this actually removes almost all choice from the player if the want to get through content.

MMO content gets boring for me rather quickly these days. Running the same dungeons in the same way over and over does get easier and easier with each pass because we memorize the patterns and perfect the rotations and such. The challenge is diminished because we use the "practice makes perfect method" to get it done. I know when I am done with a game forever because the group members or guild members have everything on timers. "Let's get through this, this, and this, I only have an hour..." etc. I hate that part.

Games that are moving away from the Trinity structure offer the players far more variables for each encounter. Random groups are going to have to make changes to the game play in order to find success. TSW has lots of skill choices, and random groups are going to be very different for each encounter. They will learn the mechanics, but the variety of player styles and builds are going to vary considerably. The method that worked for you the last time probably will not work exactly the same way again. This should lead to more mileage from the game content before the boredom creeps in.

I hate the term "we have such and such dungeon on farm". For me that is a sign of mindless repetition. I don't play well with those kinds of groups, I will probably do something that upsets everyone sooner or later, on purpose.

I tend to find unorthodox ways to get things done normally. I like to play my characters in a way that is fun for me, not the "learn to play, know your role, learn your rotation, watch this Youtube video" method. I just don't feel like I am playing a game like that. It feels like a job.