I say keep it P2P

Pay the Players $15mo.

Most F2P games are inconvenient by design, and then they sell you "convenience" items that bring the game in line with how convenient it should have been by default.  Games that only sell truly fluff items are fine, but only if comparable items are available in game.  Of course there are exceptions.

Subscription based games are a perfectly viable model as long as the player is getting value for their money.(content updates on a regular basis).  However nonsense arguments like you pay for the right to play on their servers fall flat when you compare the model to a F2P model.  If a company wants to go with a subscription based model they need to put out content updates frequently.  This is one of the reasons why SWTOR failed, becaue they failed to deliver content updates frequently enough to make there customers feel like they were getting value for their money.

200 million. F2P?

There are stock failures of less value than this.

If this happens Bioware will be out of the gaming industry. Between that and ME3? Bioware is in real trouble EA's not exaclty doing well either due to this.

The subscription model isnt dead but it needs to provide more than just game access now. Rift is proving the subscription model works

Consistent content, quallity customer service in rift's case and a very responsive dev team. That's a game i feel comfortable spending money on.

DCUO's model is getting it done as well. This game didnt get it done and its biggest issue that could save the game has only been reinforced as shit. (Space Combat)

Personally, I think SWTOR has much better chances not going F2P.

1. F2P means loss of any revenue, unless you find another option i.e. advertising, item shop, vip access.

Let's be frank: would you like to sit there staring at the coca-cola dynamic ribbon twisting while SWTOR is starting up? Or find neon lights offering Bud's in all cantinas? What about Nvidia ads showing on screens at the spaceport? Thought so...

Item shops are, well, they are tricky. I had this as a bit of a fight with another player who claimed that most players would buy something every 30 days and therefore make BW lots of money. My experience is: I've maybe bought things in 4 item shops of different games over the last 6 years.

There was some race in DDO because I had actually bought DDO whioe it was still P2P and everybody who used to have a valid subscription and opted for transfer upon F2P go a good chunk of money to spend.

There was a costume set I bought for GW1 before I realized how crap the game actually is.

There was BFH where I got myself by way of some mag code (and a re-order of same issue claiming the original was lost ;-) ) some game cash to buy some cool outfit and nice weapon.

I have since then found that just watching a quick movie here or there is enough to add some cash back into the game's wallet.

And in that very same way I got myself the game cash in Requiem Online for a name change.

Even considering the price of the original DDO box, in total I've spend not even £20 in item stores!

Trying living off that!

"VIP"ing... well, the question is always where to draw the line... would VIP in SWTOR mean that e.g. you can play all classes while otherwise you can only play one class or just one faction? Or maybe you can only PvP as a VIP?

I don't think trying to figure out the best "VIP" option would be worse the energy.

And let's face it: no matter how much further the subscriber numbers drop, it will still generate at least some money. ;-)

2. Risking the license. If you look at WAR, EA/BW could (and maybe even should) have killed that horse a long while ago or at least made it F2P.

Yet, EA has obviously considered the license standing behind WAR and has now found an easy F2P cashcow to be raised up with that license: WoH. Imagine GW had pulled the license because WAR had to be considered a complete fail including going F2P!

The same is probably true if BW/EA wants to hold on to their SW license.

3. The subscription model is dying anyways! Well, we all remember the same lines when GW1 was released... and not much really happened except that too many MMORPGs were released and in the end coud only compete with each other on F2P level.

Subscription is here to stay because there will always be people who consider a fixed monthly price for full and complete access better than potentially spending (much) more in an item shop for individual access features.

4. There is no competition! Let's be honest, SWTOR is called a WoW clone... which it may or may not be (I've never played WoW so I couldn't say) but fact is it doesn't have Elves or Orcs but wookies and lightsabers!

Fantasy games are much more generic than SciFi MMOs. You can have games like Planetside2 or Firefall who are SciFi, but are just not SW. You could over the gamer a Starship Trooper, a Star Trek, A Battlestar Galactica, a Babylon 5, a Lexx, a Firefly MMO, they would still say it's not SW, and of course they are right. So, finding any competition for SWTOR is really hard, and as long as you are the only one offering you may as well charge for it as much as you like!

5. Population decline is a challenge but not a problem! To me it always made no point trying to tie countering a population decline with F2P as a countermeasure.

I mean of course, turning a game F2P will mean that a good many new and old players will come. Alas, will they stay? And if yes, to what point?

First, while BW is obviously working on adding features, will it be those that certain (PvP focused) ex-subscriber cry about? Because if not, well, they'll be in and out again before the door makes a full rotation.

The same holds true for PvE gamers who find new content for them to be lacking. A new gamer may actually find any number of issues, most perfectly documented somewhere in the SWTOR forum, like SWTOR not being SW or SWG, or there just not being enough new content outside the personal story quests to play thru the same planet arch and Heroic quests again with another class from that faction. etc. 

But let's assume people stay... in your books you can claim that you had say 3 Mio gamers each night, but there is no money these people are bringing in... not good!

6. It's all about prestige! EA has apparently no problem running DAoC despite their low numbers. Why? Who knows? And to be honest, with all the doom-n-gloomers I think BW will be much more happy to give them a one-finger-salut saying that despite all those F2P crys the game actually stays P2P!

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Stevenra

Yeah because playing games in which kids just steal their parents credit cards and buy items that should only be earned is a real fun way too play games....Get real any game that goes pay too win deserves to bomb.  Stop trying to speak for everyone that games the majority dosnt want this type of platform of paying.

But the majority does want F2P. The majority are playing F2P. The majority have chosen F2P over the few remaining sub models.

He isn't speaking for everyone. There are those of us who still prefer sub models. But, we need to come to grips that we are no longer the majority.

An interesting example is my nephew. He is 19 and going to a jr. college with an associates degree in game design. He loves fantasy rpg. He asked me what games I played, and I rattled off a list of sub-based mmos that I have enjoyed over the years. He visibly grimaced at each and everyone and in very stereotypical teenage gamer form said, without fear of hurting my feelings, 'Those games all suck. They suck hard'.

So I asked him why. He replied (paraphrasing)  "Cuz they all make you pay a sub fee. I'm never going to play a game that forces money from you without knowing you'll get something in return"

He was so certain, so assured with an attitude of 'everyone knows this'. He went as far as degrading WoW players for being gullible. And not because the game is simplified or cartoony or because of wellfare epics.....it was because he thought all WoW players were idiots for playing a game with a sub fee.

 

Now granted this is just one kid - I don't mean to cover all future developers in the same blanket. However, it was obvious to me that his opinion was cemented in place and he was obviously surrounded by a slew of other gamers who felt the same. He was comfortable that his opinion was the majority - he had never met someone like me; he was shocked and dissappointed in my gaming habits. I was speechless too, as I had never met anyone in real life with his opinion.

To further, I supervise a lot of guys in their twenties. Probably about 1/3 of them game. Most have had some experience with an mmo - but most don't consider themselves 'mmo'ers' but 'gamers'. One of them played WoW for awhile, but is now playing D3, prior he was a DOTA and Starcraft player after leaving WoW. I told him I'd give him a scroll of resurection if he wanted to play with me but he vehemently said no. Why? Because he felt duped by paying a sub fee for those 2 or 3 years - why do that when there is so much F2P stuff out there? Again, like my nephew, he said this with the conviction that he was in the majority opinion. With his attitude, and the attitude of other of my employees plus with my nephew, entering the dev buisiness, holding all virtually the same sour opinion of sub fees, I had to come to grips.

I thought sub-based games were what the majority wanted - I found out it was just my generation of gamers.

I'm in game design school as well, I also work for a company, and for you to say that tells me  he is being taught wrong...  The fact is F2P GAMES, if you want to get anything good, you need to spend more then 15 bucks a month those are facts and thats why games are going,  free, they can suck you in with it being free and then you like the game and end up spending 10 bucks , oh  another 10 or another, another and so on, and before you realize it , you spent more then 15 a month,  Thats why they do this now a days, there is alot more games now a days.. ALso people at game design school are moving toward Iphone games because we can make more money and faster and with little experince, those are facts.

The reason most new Devs hate MMO's because you need to play them alot most of the time, they cost  more to make and you really need a decent team with experince. So most new Devs stay away from MMo's..... Another reason is gamers today whine to darn much, so why should a new dev make a game for a bunch of whiners???? Thats another reason.. I could go on ...

Fifth reason Swtor should go F2P (or remove subs and stay B2P):

- the game is not worth a sub.

Imo shut down the game and forcibly save people from themselves...

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by jessie360

The subscription model paradigm is shifting to other modes of revenue generation.  The subscription model is becoming outdated and the fact that many games are going free to play or launching that way, and staying successful, shows that this model is the current trend.  While we may eventually see a resurgence in the future of the subscription model, they will never be dominant again.

 

It's basic business guys.  Change you model to appeal to what the consumer's demands are.  A small percentage of people willing to pay a sub ("Don't do what the majority wants!") doesn't mean a company is going to be profitable.  In the end, businesses don't care about being trendy or serving their small, elite fanbase - they care about increasing revenue and expanding their market.

I could be way off-base but I don't think it's the PAYMENT model that is making many of todays MMO's unpopular......hint, it might actualy have something to do with the quality of the PRODUCT.

 

P.S. Basic business.... it's NOT the number of USERS you get but the number of SALES that determines your revenue. As a business, you are going to be more proffitable getting  100 users who are paying $15 per month each then you are getting 1000 users paying on average $1.25 per month.

This comment shows how much you underestimate how much people are willing to spend in the free to play market. I know many people that spent hundreds of dollars per week converting real cash into in game currancies by selling cash shop items.

That is one of the greatest misconceptions going, just because the game is free to play does not mean that the whole community is cheap, in many cases the cost of the game is not the issue.

Some people just have to have everything now. It does not matter to them how much it costs.

So many people generalize their point of view based solely on their opinion and perspective. The reality is that out of those 1000 players in a free to play game a large number of them might spend $1.25, some of them might spend $500 in a month and yet others at other various amounts. Often, the completely free players still contribute to the cash shop sales. They might not buy anything directly, but when they buy something from a cash shop seller such as enchanting scrolls or whatever, they are supporting the cash shop sales indirectly.

Not every free to play game allows cash shop items to be sold to other players, but most of them do from one degree or another. Companies like Areia Games or Perfect World Int. do well enough in the free to play market. Some of those games have thriving communities. Perfect World Int. releases new fully developed games every couple of years or so and they are getting better and better with every release. They are certainly not much worse than some of the sub based games we have seen lately.

All of this will end up doing is put MMO vets off even more than they already are with the genre.

There will be less and less people wanting to play "MMORPGs" and the bean-counters will decide to stop making them due to lack of interest. They're not smart enough to understand that people are not giving up MMORPGs, but what it has become.

People arque that WOW was good for the genre because it brought a lot of people in to it. I disargee. Because those people have been nothing but a problem ever since.

-Terrible communities

-Dumbed down gameplay and mechanics

-Easy mode

-Special Snowflake mentality

-Short Longevity caters to the locust

-Manufactured PvP

-LFG Hub Lobby

-No sense of accomplishment

This F2P crap that some of you are rationalizing is just going to make things worse. I find it hard to pay $15 per month for a lobby-based co-op. Why would I pay the average $28 per month for F2P?

Originally posted by Durray

I personally dislike FTP games, I left aion when it went FTP after 2.5 years of playing it!

But with SWTOR...I stopped playing after 3 weeks (max leveled nothing to do). But I would probably go back if it went FTP and they fixed PvP.

I dont get it you dislike the FTP model but would go back if it went FTP I dont understand that at all. How bout going back if the fixed PvP and what ever else you disliked about the game make a bit more sence of the matter. 

Originally posted by Durray

I personally dislike FTP games, I left aion when it went FTP after 2.5 years of playing it!

But with SWTOR...I stopped playing after 3 weeks (max leveled nothing to do). But I would probably go back if it went FTP and they fixed PvP.

 

Khm, playing since first day, every day from half hour to 18 hours. 4 alts lv. 50 now, 8 more close. Always fun, simply can't get enough of game. True, Im sw lover since first movie, and I guess this ads a lot, but I'm sure I would love game anyway. Incredible main quests (not that regular are bad, done with all alts virtually all), zero lag (even when servers were full at start) with all maxed out, fast patching, minimal bugs, ... etc etc.

But I'm no blind to see population has declined a lot. As I understand from various problems main problems are pvp and end game. I could not care less for pvp then i actually do and I'm still months aways from end game.

F2P have destroyed (imo) quality as it attracts beggars to quality restaurants with good food. F2P lovers are "special" kind of players. For them there is no game in this world and never will be worth sub. Wondering their position if they would be owners.

About op, only on looming I would agree, rest is more or less bs. Produced by f2p addicted.

Originally posted by st3v3b0

F2P communities suck to put it mildly.  I'd much rather pay $15 for a quality game than play a F2P game.  With that said, I did just recently cancel my TOR account.  If they could come up with a premium server that was not as much as $15 (say $7.50) just to get away from the F2P community I'd pay that, but I will never play a truly F2P game.

You sound like you live back in 2006.

Decison = made.

F2P before 2013.

Next!

WoW:MoP and GW2 will push them over the F2P edge FOR SURE.

Mark my prophetic words! lol

Well they should keep  both models. Subscription for hardcore tor players( but they should get all the  items from shop for free) and f2p model for casual players

Originally posted by Ovum

Originally posted by st3v3b0

F2P communities suck to put it mildly.  I'd much rather pay $15 for a quality game than play a F2P game.  With that said, I did just recently cancel my TOR account.  If they could come up with a premium server that was not as much as $15 (say $7.50) just to get away from the F2P community I'd pay that, but I will never play a truly F2P game.

You sound like you live back in 2006.

Well...the less people you have to play with the less number of trolls you have to deal with. At least that's the idea.

4 Reasons why SWTOR should be F2P ?

I think you only really need 1.

1) SWTOR is not an MMO. And people will not pay a sub for a game that is a CRPG with co-op.

who's gives a crap anyway, Im just not paying a sub for this shite, Other shite i may consider :)

And I bought the bloody CE .. make me wanna throw bowls of trifle at the wall!!

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by Stevenra

Yeah because playing games in which kids just steal their parents credit cards and buy items that should only be earned is a real fun way too play games....Get real any game that goes pay too win deserves to bomb.  Stop trying to speak for everyone that games the majority dosnt want this type of platform of paying.

But the majority does want F2P. The majority are playing F2P. The majority have chosen F2P over the few remaining sub models.

He isn't speaking for everyone. There are those of us who still prefer sub models. But, we need to come to grips that we are no longer the majority.

An interesting example is my nephew. He is 19 and going to a jr. college with an associates degree in game design. He loves fantasy rpg. He asked me what games I played, and I rattled off a list of sub-based mmos that I have enjoyed over the years. He visibly grimaced at each and everyone and in very stereotypical teenage gamer form said, without fear of hurting my feelings, 'Those games all suck. They suck hard'.

So I asked him why. He replied (paraphrasing)  "Cuz they all make you pay a sub fee. I'm never going to play a game that forces money from you without knowing you'll get something in return"

He was so certain, so assured with an attitude of 'everyone knows this'. He went as far as degrading WoW players for being gullible. And not because the game is simplified or cartoony or because of wellfare epics.....it was because he thought all WoW players were idiots for playing a game with a sub fee.

 

Now granted this is just one kid - I don't mean to cover all future developers in the same blanket. However, it was obvious to me that his opinion was cemented in place and he was obviously surrounded by a slew of other gamers who felt the same. He was comfortable that his opinion was the majority - he had never met someone like me; he was shocked and dissappointed in my gaming habits. I was speechless too, as I had never met anyone in real life with his opinion.

To further, I supervise a lot of guys in their twenties. Probably about 1/3 of them game. Most have had some experience with an mmo - but most don't consider themselves 'mmo'ers' but 'gamers'. One of them played WoW for awhile, but is now playing D3, prior he was a DOTA and Starcraft player after leaving WoW. I told him I'd give him a scroll of resurection if he wanted to play with me but he vehemently said no. Why? Because he felt duped by paying a sub fee for those 2 or 3 years - why do that when there is so much F2P stuff out there? Again, like my nephew, he said this with the conviction that he was in the majority opinion. With his attitude, and the attitude of other of my employees plus with my nephew, entering the dev buisiness, holding all virtually the same sour opinion of sub fees, I had to come to grips.

I thought sub-based games were what the majority wanted - I found out it was just my generation of gamers.

 

I'm sorry but I fail to see how all of this is really relevant?

I mean we all know pretty well that ppl prefer to watch the latest movie for free over spending $10 for a ticket. That's why we have all that movie piracy out there. Does that mean that the studios therefore are releasing movies only for free to watch now?

And your nephew... seriously, let me guess: gets lots of money up the arse from his parents? As students in general do...

Otherwise he'd understand that game design is just another job, one where you hope to get paid. And if you don't get paid, well, all your enthusiasm will quickly take a dive when your meals end up being Rammen noodles on food stamps or you need to pull 10 hrs shifts at McD's...

Most F2P games start out with at least a "pay2" concept attached to it. Whe in the end they actually go completely F2P without even a item shop or anything to make money, the best the game designers can hope for is to use it as a showcase for their skills.

Now, that "ex-WoWer" you were talking about, ask him how much he is spending on games. I bet you he'll say "nothing mostly" because he gets them cracked from some friend or the other. Yeah, that is me and my friends almost 15, almost 20 years all over again: "why play a game you have to buy and then pay for again in order to be able to play?" "yeah, makes no sense with all those online FPS where you can play for free..." "yeah, but wait, we are playing new games every month..." "so?" "isn't that more expansive than paying a small fee to continue playing a game I really like?" "nah, why? We just crack the games and all is free..." "errr... well, I don't, I actually buy them..." "oh, look it's already that time, got to go mate."

Yes, games like D3 and SC are B2P games you can then play for free as much as you like. The funning thing though is that you pretty much have to pay out of your arse for anything new to be added to it: need more maps because the old ones are boring? wait for expansion pack, will only cost you $39.95.

In short: teens and tweens these days are basically not smarter then we and our friends were X decades ago, There is a good chance they'll grow out of their stupidity/rose coloured dream bubble... 

Originally posted by Dallanon

Decison = made.

 

F2P before 2013.

 

Next!

 

WoW:MoP and GW2 will push them over the F2P edge FOR SURE.

 

Mark my prophetic words! lol

 

Weren't the other prophetic words "there will be pig-monkies flying out of my arse"? still waiting for that to happpen ;-) (j/k)