I prefer a good game.

Love how everyone talks about the community as if they are seperate from it and the other guy is the problem.

Guys, you are not in traffic, you ARE traffic.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Love how everyone talks about the community as if they are seperate from it and the other guy is the problem.

Guys, you are not in traffic, you ARE traffic.

You are!

Originally posted by SlickShoes

Originally posted by Vesavius

Love how everyone talks about the community as if they are seperate from it and the other guy is the problem.

Guys, you are not in traffic, you ARE traffic.

You are!

No you!

Originally posted by adiktus

This forum reeks of  "Why do developers don't do this?", "Why aren't these features being used?", "It's so simple why can't they implement this.", etc.

For me, the real question is, when will we realize that it's all a matter of preference? I see a lot of people talking big as if their preference is the general standard that developers should follow. They want to push for something that they want, regardless of whether other people like it or not.

The thing is, there are millions of gamers around the world, contributing to millions of different preferences. Of course there are preferences that are much common and adhered to by more people, but there is no one preference that could encompass all people.

It's fine to state an opinion or what one prefers, but assuming that everyone else thinks that way is plain arrogance.

What strikes me odd is that you critize people for asking questions like "why do developer dont do this" and then tell poeple that they should realize that it's all a matter of preference. They ask those question because they preffer to have those features in there games. This encourage people to discuss it, with is what a discussion forum is about. Yes they believe that there preference is the best and developer should follow it. That is why it's THERE preference. They like it or even love it and believe it should be in every game.

I agree that assuming that everyone else want it is ignorance, but does that really matter and do you really believe a big portion of the people believe this? How does that change the disussion regarding the subject? Beside that fact the person most likely is stubborn, but hey like you said we're all differend. Maybe we should also realise not everyone thinks the same, discusses the same or is as flexibile?

What I don't get is why some people settle with a subpar MMO and call it fun, that's really stunning.

Originally posted by Torgrim

What I don't get is why some people settle with a subpar MMO and call it fun, that's really stunning.

Beacuse it is fun for them? Maybe they also don't see it as subpar? Because a lot of stuff is subjective?

Originally posted by adiktus

This forum reeks of  "Why do developers don't do this?", "Why aren't these features being used?", "It's so simple why can't they implement this.", etc.

For me, the real question is, when will we realize that it's all a matter of preference? I see a lot of people talking big as if their preference is the general standard that developers should follow. They want to push for something that they want, regardless of whether other people like it or not.

The thing is, there are millions of gamers around the world, contributing to millions of different preferences. Of course there are preferences that are much common and adhered to by more people, but there is no one preference that could encompass all people.

It's fine to state an opinion or what one prefers, but assuming that everyone else thinks that way is plain arrogance.

There are some things that are a matter of preference. For instance - sandbox vs themepark, open world pvp vs battlegrounds, or sci fi vs fantasy. There are other things - things many gamers complain about - that are not. This includes a solid interface, grouping functionality, customization, a good combat system, content, and company support. These are some things every MMO should have. This doesn't mean they should be implemented the same way across every game, but they should at least be there. 

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Torgrim

What I don't get is why some people settle with a subpar MMO and call it fun, that's really stunning.

Beacuse it is fun for them? Maybe they also don't see it as subpar? Because a lot of stuff is subjective?

With that line of yours is gold to gaming studios, people who settle for subpar and having "fun" is what kills this genre hell it's even crossing over to singleplayer games, beacuse gaming studios knows people buy subpar so they continue make them.

Originally posted by adiktus

This forum reeks of  "Why do developers don't do this?", "Why aren't these features being used?", "It's so simple why can't they implement this.", etc.

For me, the real question is, when will we realize that it's all a matter of preference? I see a lot of people talking big as if their preference is the general standard that developers should follow. They want to push for something that they want, regardless of whether other people like it or not.

The thing is, there are millions of gamers around the world, contributing to millions of different preferences. Of course there are preferences that are much common and adhered to by more people, but there is no one preference that could encompass all people.

It's fine to state an opinion or what one prefers, but assuming that everyone else thinks that way is plain arrogance.

Not all MMO preferences are being catered to.  

Imagine if some folks in a town liked hamburgers and some liked fried chicken, but the ONLY restaurants in town where making fried chicken.  The hamburger crowd is not remiss for making a statement that someone needs to build a hamburger stand.  And the fried chicken crowd is silly and redundant if they tell the hamburger folks, "not everyone likes hamburger", because that is not the issue.

So, I think your post misses the point a bit.  You can have your bread crumb trails, but someone needs to build an MMO based on a world, because there is a rather large crowd out there clamoring for such.

(And frankly, I think all of these AAA linear MMORPGs coming out and flopping, took their design from early WOW and did not change it over the years of development to match recent gamer tastes.  These linear AAA MMORPG's do splash and flop, it seems.)

Originally posted by BartDaCat

Originally posted by adiktus

This forum reeks of  "Why do developers don't do this?", "Why aren't these features being used?", "It's so simple why can't they implement this.", etc.

For me, the real question is, when will we realize that it's all a matter of preference? I see a lot of people talking big as if their preference is the general standard that developers should follow. They want to push for something that they want, regardless of whether other people like it or not.

The thing is, there are millions of gamers around the world, contributing to millions of different preferences. Of course there are preferences that are much common and adhered to by more people, but there is no one preference that could encompass all people.

It's fine to state an opinion or what one prefers, but assuming that everyone else thinks that way is plain arrogance.

That's a double-edged sword really.  With the runaway success of World of Warcraft, which is the epitome of "homogenized content for mainstream success", just about every major developer out there has vowed to follow their model to grab a piece of that action.

 

"What if they don't elves and faeries and orcs and goblins?" 

"No problem, we'll give 'em a major science fiction franchise to sink their teeth into, but we'll be just like WoW."

 

Yeah, there's a lot of copycat sentiment on these boards, but I think there are some valid points being made as well.  Niche markets are being overlooked in favor of another mainstream success by applying different I.P.s and genre differentiations to the same overall MMO model, and it sucks.

Do yourself a favor and compare the types of games that have been released over the last 5-10 years and you'll see many developers attempt to do different things and service the niche market from Darkfall to mortal online to fallen earth these are all games designed to serve niche markets and while some of those games have been problematic it hasn't stopped the fact that anytime someone decides to go a different route this community sees the need to try to bury anytthing that follows conventions that they haven't approved of.

I could only imagine if rock/metal fans decided "I hate nickelback because they are still using the tired two guitars,a bass, and drummer formula". Or how about if the marines went to all out war with the navy?

This is what we as gamers do to ourselves all the time, I've asked many times over if you as a fan don't like a particular games design why even follow that game?  we are under no obligation to dedicate time to a particular game simply because gaming is a hobby we enjoy and we certainly aren't tasked with destroying the reputation of any game that doesn't meet our expectations which is what is roundly done here on mmorpg and sites like it.

I may be wrong but I think the op is speaking in defense of these maintstream games against the likes of the mmorpg bully types who are constantly on here calling the products we enjoy a failure simply because they don't enjoy it's gameplay and then constantly trying to push the point that we all should forgoe this type of gaming.

I don't like EVE,EQ,EQ2,DF,FE,MO but don't waste time on the boards of those games constantly bashing them regardless of that particular games state at the time and I think the op is suggesting maybe more of us should take a note from that if you don't like a game put it out of site and out of mind.

And don't blame devs for deveping for who they think their market is prop up the ones who are deveoping for YOU.

GW2 can be used as a great example of this while watching the traffic here I love seeing people who are genuinely excited for a game but then some of those same peope totally flip the script and head over to the TOR boards to bash that game with unfounded and extremist views like this game will be dead in a year bwaa hahahahaha what a failure and so on and so forth.

It's tiresome and totally not needed regardless of how your day went we as gamers need to reaize there is not a war going on regardless of what some of us have convinced ourselves of.

And honestly take close look this is mostly a one sided issue the fans of the niche market are the only ones who create this type of environment, I won't say that mainstream fans don't get caught up in this sometimes because I myself have been guilty of this once or twice but you really don't see WOW fans presenting their overall negative opinions on games like EVE over and over and over again it mainly comes from the know it all fans of niche markets and it really should stop.

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by Sameer1979

I despise nothing more than MMO fanatics who behave like the soccer fans assaulting eachother at any given oppertunity.

Anti-F2P fanaticism applies here too ya know. /wink

Same as Pro-F2P fanaticism /wink

Is there such a thing?

I only know of people screaming bloddy murder over the idea, and then people trying to convince them the sky isn't falling.

Trust me they are out there they just aren't fanatical enogh to create posts out of it but i have read quite a few posts by people on this site who obviously want to see every game as either B2P or F2P again I think you guys are going off the fact that often these people don't create posts they just state their opinion in posts created by others, and no I'm not going to go and find an example it woud take all day but keep what I said in mind you are here enough that I assure you within the month you'll see atleast one person who it becomes obvious to you is a "F2P warrior".

Originally posted by adiktus

It's fine to state an opinion or what one prefers, but assuming that everyone else thinks that way is plain arrogance.

Worse are the ones who've narrowed their minds until there aren't even the tiniest of cracks for different ideas to slip in.

'If a game doesn't have X, I won't even consider it."--not much chance of conversation here.

But it's the internet, the home of extremists standing on soap boxes and shouting.  People who are motivated by finding fights, just plain old and bitter, idealists, pedants, proselytes, the pompous.  And yes hubris, hubris as far as the eye can see, in all directions, all the time.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Torgrim

What I don't get is why some people settle with a subpar MMO and call it fun, that's really stunning.

Beacuse it is fun for them? Maybe they also don't see it as subpar? Because a lot of stuff is subjective?

 

With that line of yours is gold to gaming studios, people who settle for subpar and having "fun" is what kills this genre hell it's even crossing over to singleplayer games, beacuse gaming studios knows people buy subpar so they continue make them.

As I said before, just because you consider a game subpar, doesn't mean others do, reagardless of how you want to expose that idea. You're just being subjective. If there weren't enough people enjoying these "subpar" games, they woudn't be made. I am not too fond of enough games comming out, some I may consider shallow, others stupid, but if I don't like them, I don't play them. This is all my subjective view on those games. Others like them and if enough do, more get made, because those people don't see them as subpar even if I do.

So while you might think they are subpar, if they are good entartainment for enough people, they are not subpar to those playing and having fun in them.

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Torgrim

What I don't get is why some people settle with a subpar MMO and call it fun, that's really stunning.

Beacuse it is fun for them? Maybe they also don't see it as subpar? Because a lot of stuff is subjective?

 

With that line of yours is gold to gaming studios, people who settle for subpar and having "fun" is what kills this genre hell it's even crossing over to singleplayer games, beacuse gaming studios knows people buy subpar so they continue make them.

As I said before, just because you consider a game subpar, doesn't mean others do, reagardless of how you want to expose that idea. You're just being subjective. If there weren't enough people enjoying these "subpar" games, they woudn't be made. I am not too fond of enough games comming out, some I may consider shallow, others stupid, but if I don't like them, I don't play them. This is all my subjective view on those games. Others like them and if enough do, more get made, because those people don't see them as subpar even if I do.

So while you might think they are subpar, if they are good entartainment for enough people, they are not subpar to those playing and having fun in them.

The trend these days are gaming studios earn the big bucks on hype and pree orders and massive box sales, I dont have a good % how many leave after the first 2 month after a MMO release but atleast 60% do, that should give a hint and, that should give a clear signal that this product is subpar and shallow, take TOR and STO for an example both a subpar not only I think so but the gamers themselves who play it thinks that aswell, why do they still play?

Simple It's Star Wars and Star Trek, they can live out thier dreams of playing in those universes.

I am 100% convinced that its not a demand side issue that its a supply side issue. I am nearly positive that its basically the industry lowering expectations so that they can do less and make more.

How can anyone believe it's developers problem the way games are now. There's so much choice. There's kickstarter. There's different kinds of games. Diablo 3 sales blew Minecraft sales out of the water. These days with all of these indie games, kickstarter, different choices, there's no excuse.

If people buy shallow games with lots of explosions and shallow gameplay it's because that's what some people prefer. They're hooked on it. If there are choices and gamers still choose the quick superficial fun then that's just what some gamers want.

Originally posted by GTwander

K, then why can't they keep their peanut butter out of my chocolate?

If 10M people like peanuts and only 1000 like chocolate, developers are going to put more peanut butter into their products.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by GTwander

K, then why can't they keep their peanut butter out of my chocolate?

If 10M people like peanuts and only 1000 like chocolate, developers are going to put more peanut butter into their products.

 

But, 10M people will eat peanuts if there is nothing else, even though many want chocolate.  Like the alcoholic who drinks mouthwash when there is no whiskey about, many MMORPG gamers are playing these bland linear storyline games because that's all that's new and out.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Torgrim

What I don't get is why some people settle with a subpar MMO and call it fun, that's really stunning.

Beacuse it is fun for them? Maybe they also don't see it as subpar? Because a lot of stuff is subjective?

 

With that line of yours is gold to gaming studios, people who settle for subpar and having "fun" is what kills this genre hell it's even crossing over to singleplayer games, beacuse gaming studios knows people buy subpar so they continue make them.

Yeah .. UO is a subpar game with uncontrollable ganging. EQ is a subpar game with all the camping and boring bits. I am glad developers fixed those. Funny that people still sub to those subpar games .. no wonder studios still run them.