Originally posted by Cephus404

Now it's been years since I played EvE, but it was probably the best example of a game that dearly needs fast travel.  If you're going anywhere distant, you set your course and go watch TV.  Maybe in a half hour or so, you come back to see if you've finally arrived.

I don't want to watch TV, I want to play a game.  If I wanted to watch TV, I'd turn the computer off.

I have to agree with this, the travel system in EVE is absolutely horrid. At least in other games you get to observe scenery or do stuff while you travel, EVE doesn't really work that way. 30 jumps there, 30 jumps here... I like EVE, but this... >_<

And it would be OK if you could watch TV but autopilot is too dangerous.

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."

Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:

[...]

Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.

Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?

You're either intentionally trolling or maybe you're putting whole sandbox crowd into one 'bag' with so called "reds" / hardcore PvP griefers from UO.

No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.

Originally posted by Irus

I have to agree with the poster above, except for the last point (I believe hardcore players are detrimental to any game they're in).

Originally posted by Thorbrand

Originally posted by Irus

Outdated and bad mechanics are things like trinity, instancing, and manual grouping. What you are discussing isn't mechanics, it's more like features and styling.

Trinity is not a bad thing

I disagree.

Instancing is new MMO feature so they don't have to make large perssistent worlds like the old days.

Well, actually, it was a "solution" to random difficulties and other things, and it's definitely outdated now.

Manual grouping builds a community.

In my opinion, it does the opposite. Load up GW2: everyone works together. Load up TSW: everyone competes against each other. Manual grouping is evil and is an outdated mechanic related to older styles of coding. Automatic grouping is how real life works, we build communities just fine.

If you don't want to play with other people can't say anything to change that.

Manual grouping supports NOT playing with others, so I seriously have no idea where you pulled this out of.

But, hey, dinosaurs will be dinosaurs.

 I have to disagree with you. I am a PVE player. I enjoy playing with other people.  There are lots of mechanics in the GW2 that I do like, but the "soft" grouping and the combat mechanics aren't two of them. I find that players rarely communicate. Sure they help each other, but there is no real communication or strategy. Taking down bosses and mobs feels like giant spammy zerg fests. Sure people rez each other, but that really doesn't mean you are playing with them. It feels more like you are playing beside them. Nearly no one communicates. To me, this doesn't really build a community. I understand the need for being able to solo, but I also like a substantial amount of content that requires a well coordinated group.

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."

Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:

"Pre-Trammel UO was a magical place full of comradery and wonder, where there was a real sense of community and danger wherever you went. Trammel destroyed all that."

Which is funny, because I know some people who played Pre-Tram UO, and their description was a bit different:

"Pre-Tram UO was a horible place full of griefing jackoffs who spent all their time waiting outside towns and dungeons for vulnerable people to step out, kill them, and take all their hard-earned loot. Top brass PVP guilds went out of their way to ruin the game for everyone else, especially new players, and nothing could be done about it. Trammel finally did something about this, but by that time I had quit to play Everquest. Oh, and if anyone tells you that subs for UO dropped after Trammel, Everquest was why."

And it's not just the Pre-Tram crowd that irks me. Wanna know why there was no dungeon finder when SWTOR launched? Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?" when the game went public. And yet I still hear people complaining that "The Dungeon finder is what Ruined WoW and should never appear in another game again." Which is funny, because if the MASSIVE amout of complaining about it's absense in SWTOR (amougnst that game's many issues) is an indication, most people thought the Dungeon finder was a wonderful idea.

Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.

Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?

The argument against the group/dungeon finder by that minority is that a dungeonfinder 'is what ruined the community in WoW' which I think is patently absurd. The WoW community was toxic before the inclusion of the dungeonfinder. I had quit WoW after BC, skipped WotLK and ONLY came back before Cata released because a friend told me about the dungeonfinder.

I've said it countless times: SWTOR is NOT WoW with Lightsabers. If they had intended to be a WoW clone, they would've ended up with a better game. A clone, yes, but a BETTER GAME.

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

Tell me if you've heard this one before: "Trammel ruined Ultima Online."

Whenever I'm asked this, I just want to retort with: "Why?" But I know the answer I'll get:

"Pre-Trammel UO was a magical place full of comradery and wonder, where there was a real sense of community and danger wherever you went. Trammel destroyed all that."

Which is funny, because I know some people who played Pre-Tram UO, and their description was a bit different:

"Pre-Tram UO was a horible place full of griefing jackoffs who spent all their time waiting outside towns and dungeons for vulnerable people to step out, kill them, and take all their hard-earned loot. Top brass PVP guilds went out of their way to ruin the game for everyone else, especially new players, and nothing could be done about it. Trammel finally did something about this, but by that time I had quit to play Everquest. Oh, and if anyone tells you that subs for UO dropped after Trammel, Everquest was why."

And it's not just the Pre-Tram crowd that irks me. Wanna know why there was no dungeon finder when SWTOR launched? Because the vocal minority asked for there not to be one. And then the non-vocal majority went "WTF?" when the game went public. And yet I still hear people complaining that "The Dungeon finder is what Ruined WoW and should never appear in another game again." Which is funny, because if the MASSIVE amout of complaining about it's absense in SWTOR (amougnst that game's many issues) is an indication, most people thought the Dungeon finder was a wonderful idea.

Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.

Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?

Honestly, I'm not sure what YOU are asking for...?

The thing is simple: everybody has at some point had some great experience with a MMORPG. And the something changed and it all turned bad.

Fair enough, that was the game developers choice... sometimes they react, sometimes they don't.

But usually the game will now be no longer as good as it was before.

Which is perfectly normal as "the gameplay experience may change".

The question is just: what was that change that ruined the game?

To be honest, the one big change that ruined the MMORPG genre was for me gaming companies setting their eyes on casual gamers as targets.

Suddenly games had to be "easy", had to be "accessable" for those people who don't want to spend 40+ hours each week gaming. *eeek*

And that sort of kickstarted the whole decline: new features had to be added to make things even more easy, simple. I mean look at SWTOR's friggin' LFG tool!

Why is it needed? Because players are no longer capable of communicating with each other.

They see some people spam LFG, figure as they also need a group they should just spam LFG as well, and then everybody gets pissy because nobody actually reacts to any of the LFG spam.

Had one of these spammers just straightened his balls and spoken to the other spammers, yes, maybe they could have come to an agreement where maybe another quest is done first but the group then goes on to the one that our "hero" actually wanted to do...

So, are people clinging to "outdated" or "bad" game mechanics?

First, this is all very much in the eye of the beholder!

I always treasured the RPG part of MMORPGs, not because I wanted to go "oh sire, it is me, your humble servant. May I taketh a minute of you precious time..." etc. but because that character role stood clearly on its own, fighting was not about who is the faster twitcher but about level, attributes, abilities, yes, gear.

And yes, no matter how outdated people may consider such a system, I think it is truer to what MMORPGs were/are about than what "modern" game mechanics we see these days.

Second, some "modern" game mechanics are really nothing but gimmicks.

Looking at GW2's Eternal Battlefield, I would congratulate ANet on the smarts to bring back a tried and true classic (see, already we are actually already off point as an outdated concept beats the crap out of most modern PvP concepts), BUT sadly they have turned the 3 faction system and the "RvR" into hollow shells.

Hollow shells that are fine enough to make the casual gamer with their need for instant gratification go "yeah!"... at least for a short while when their lack of commitment becomes obvious and the more commited EBers see the novelty of this "WvW tournament system" fade away.

To be honest, I guess it's maybe a bit like driving a car: take a modern car, all technology and what not where you even have senors that will allow you to determine which passenger just passed gas. Woohoo!

Now, take an oldtimer: nothing of that fancy mic-n-mac, just bare bones.

Both cars have a good chance to get you were you want to go... but the classic will probably require more care to do so: no automatic "please clean your screen now" warning, no GPS leading straight into a ditch, 50,000 pages manual you have to read thru to find out that that red light means there is a red light on... ;-)

And just like that oldtimer of a car, these oldtimers of games require just that extra step of "work"...

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.

I'm sorry but it is true!

People were complaing that in SWTOR nobody's on the servers.

Yes, of course, not 10K or even 5K, maybe not even 1K.

The averaged average according to Scorpienne was at 350 for low pop servers.

Now, let's be fancy: 50/50 split on Rep vs. Imp: so that's 175 to each side.

Ever been in a crowd of 175 people? It is a lot!

And people keep saying that they can't find anybody to group with?

Of course, people may not be on your planet, they may not be of your level, etc. but seriously, running around on planets with less than 8 people I kept running into those same guys at hubs. And yes, there was no problem for us just teaming up for this quest or that one.

And yes, beyond that we may also have teamed up on a more regular base after a while...

fact is that most gamers these days lack social skills!

I mean when was the last time that you were at a MMO wedding or even just a normal ingame party?

Ask the "spoon fed ADD-addled brats" to join something like than and you can already imagine their faces going blank (not to mention their brains): do we get gear from that? Will there be PvP? Is the environment set up for complete interaction? etc.

It is like this cliche where kids rather than playing a boardgame or telling stories around the campfire they rather just pull out their mobiles and PSP to have fun in their own little world.

And yes, this goes as far as 2 friends sitting right next to each other on a bus rather texting each other than speaking to one another.

So, forgive me for not holding today's gamers in high regards but, well, they are not really worth it!

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.

I'm sorry but it is true!

People were complaing that in SWTOR nobody's on the servers.

Yes, of course, not 10K or even 5K, maybe not even 1K.

The averaged average according to Scorpienne was at 350 for low pop servers.

Now, let's be fancy: 50/50 split on Rep vs. Imp: so that's 175 to each side.

Ever been in a crowd of 175 people? It is a lot!

And people keep saying that they can't find anybody to group with?

Of course, people may not be on your planet, they may not be of your level, etc. but seriously, running around on planets with less than 8 people I kept running into those same guys at hubs. And yes, there was no problem for us just teaming up for this quest or that one.

And yes, beyond that we may also have teamed up on a more regular base after a while...

fact is that most gamers these days lack social skills!

I mean when was the last time that you were at a MMO wedding or even just a normal ingame party?

Ask the "spoon fed ADD-addled brats" to join something like than and you can already imagine their faces going blank (not to mention their brains): do we get gear from that? Will there be PvP? Is the environment set up for complete interaction? etc.

It is like this cliche where kids rather than playing a boardgame or telling stories around the campfire they rather just pull out their mobiles and PSP to have fun in their own little world.

And yes, this goes as far as 2 friends sitting right next to each other on a bus rather texting each other than speaking to one another.

So, forgive me for not holding today's gamers in high regards but, well, they are not really worth it! 

It's the same reason people remember their first relationship with such fondness. It was a completely new experience at the time. All the relationships afterwards usually pale in comparison to that first one because none can re-capture that feeling. Women (for me at least) and MMO's have more in common than we think.

Originally posted by kartool

It's the same reason people remember their first relationship with such fondness. It was a completely new experience at the time. All the relationships afterwards usually pale in comparison to that first one because none can re-capture that feeling. Women (for me at least) and MMO's have more in common than we think.

Not completey so.  If the girl (or the MMO) has a sack over her head, it's for reasons other than first kiss memory stuff.

I think the glory in MMORPG gaming can return, but you need mystery, danger, and freedom (to explore) and not have players as quest puppets directed by NPC's.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

 I have to disagree with you. I am a PVE player. I enjoy playing with other people.  There are lots of mechanics in the GW2 that I do like, but the "soft" grouping and the combat mechanics aren't two of them. I find that players rarely communicate. Sure they help each other, but there is no real communication or strategy. Taking down bosses and mobs feels like giant spammy zerg fests. Sure people rez each other, but that really doesn't mean you are playing with them. It feels more like you are playing beside them. Nearly no one communicates. To me, this doesn't really build a community. I understand the need for being able to solo, but I also like a substantial amount of content that requires a well coordinated group.

If a player doesn't want to communicate, he's not going to.

If you have soft grouping, the player will contribute to the group.

If you have manual grouping, all you end up with is a tagger of some sort who walks around by himself almost never joining anything because it's a commitment (while soft grouping isn't).

There shouldn't be and can't be any strategy in any non-challenging event. On the other hand, go find a deserted DE a bit higher level or go to the dungeons and you'll find plenty of strategy. The reason people solo on quests is not because of soft grouping (which most games do not have - where did manual grouping help WoW? Where does it help TSW?), it's because the quests are soloable. Which is fine. Except, in GW2, groups actually have an effect on events so having multiple players doesn't trivialize content, nor does it create a leveling problem as it does in other games.

And I am not sure what you mean by communication? What do you want people to say? Did you speak to them? You say hi, they'll probably say hi just fine.

People rezing is, to me, far more significant than people "communicating" by throwing around random meaningless comments. Tbh, I am not sure what you are referring to. I haven't seen any communication in WoW even in dungeons. You can go through a dungeon without anyone saying a word.

Where is your evidence that manual grouping is superior to soft grouping? Because I don't see it anywhere. In fact, Rift's optional auto-group feature has significantly enhanced my community experience.

Originally posted by ReallyNow10

 

I think the glory in MMORPG gaming can return, but you need mystery, danger, and freedom (to explore) and not have players as quest puppets directed by NPC's.

Well, yes... alas, here is the problem: if you don't give the players something that they are supposed to do, they won't know what to do ;-)

I remeber my first MMORPG more than a decade ago, of course there were quests in there, but many I just ignored, had my Ranger shoulder his bow instead and go out into the countryside to find monster that were of fitting level for a fight.

Now, I might have met up with other people and we may have teamed up for taking down this or that mob, but to us there was never this "hey, I need to run this quest, wanna join?" moment.

The fun was in just going out there and see what one finds...

Now, look at games these days - with GW2 being probably the most extreme example - but if the gamer isn't taken by the hand, he'll just stand there and without a clue what to do.

Which is understandable, given that today's gamers don't have the time/drive to invest a lot into a MMORPG game: it needs to allow them to progress fast to "endgame" at which point... well... usually they find there isn't much of it to the game and leave for the next one.

That maybe "endgame" could be something that they could create themselves, that is beyond their scope of understanding these games. :-(

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.

Didn't some poster already give you pretty good arguments?

Maybe it's all just a matter of opinion, eh?

I don't like fast travel, for instance. I prefer moving by foot, vehicles, mounts, special installations, w/e. It makes it feel more like an adventure to me. Fast travel feels too gamey and loses authenticity.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

 I have to disagree with you. I am a PVE player. I enjoy playing with other people.  There are lots of mechanics in the GW2 that I do like, but the "soft" grouping and the combat mechanics aren't two of them. I find that players rarely communicate. Sure they help each other, but there is no real communication or strategy. Taking down bosses and mobs feels like giant spammy zerg fests. Sure people rez each other, but that really doesn't mean you are playing with them. It feels more like you are playing beside them. Nearly no one communicates. To me, this doesn't really build a community. I understand the need for being able to solo, but I also like a substantial amount of content that requires a well coordinated group.

If a player doesn't want to communicate, he's not going to.

If you have soft grouping, the player will contribute to the group.

If you have manual grouping, all you end up with is a tagger of some sort who walks around by himself almost never joining anything because it's a commitment (while soft grouping isn't).

There shouldn't be and can't be any strategy in any non-challenging event. On the other hand, go find a deserted DE a bit higher level or go to the dungeons and you'll find plenty of strategy. The reason people solo on quests is not because of soft grouping (which most games do not have - where did manual grouping help WoW? Where does it help TSW?), it's because the quests are soloable. Which is fine. Except, in GW2, groups actually have an effect on events so having multiple players doesn't trivialize content, nor does it create a leveling problem as it does in other games.

And I am not sure what you mean by communication? What do you want people to say? Did you speak to them? You say hi, they'll probably say hi just fine.

People rezing is, to me, far more significant than people "communicating" by throwing around random meaningless comments. Tbh, I am not sure what you are referring to. I haven't seen any communication in WoW even in dungeons. You can go through a dungeon without anyone saying a word.

Where is your evidence that manual grouping is superior to soft grouping? Because I don't see it anywhere. In fact, Rift's optional auto-group feature has significantly enhanced my community experience.

I think it's the fact that you don't understand how important communication is, that, well, gives you (IMO) a bit of an odd look on things.

I think we can agree that in just about any MMORPG when you log in at roughly the same time each day you will start seeing "the usual suspects".

Now, you have 2 options: ignore them or try to "bond" with them.

Me, personally, I'd feel a bit like a moron if I were to run to each oh them and go like "hey, my name is so-and-so, do you want to be my friend?"

But on the other side you may just come across somebody who is in need of help. Just a quick jump in, help him/her kill that mob or even just heal him/her, and a simple communication may follow: "hey, thanks man, yeah, they jumped me out of nowhere." - "no problem dude, I know this spot, happens all the time... there is a better spot a bit to the left, you want me to show you?" - "hey sure, cool, I could really use some XP/gold" - "if you want to we can team up? makes things a bit easier?" - "nice, definitely!"

Of course he may also just run off without saying anything.

The point is if you don't try you will never know!

GW2's soft grouping takes that need completely out of the game: you are at the right spot at the right time and you are in a group. But you will probably never know a single of your "fellow adventurers" in that "group".

Frankly, I think I'm old enough to judge if I want to play with somebody or not. So, being auto-group would be my worst nightmare: "ah, shit, played with him, what a douche, played with her, clueless like a headless chicken, played with him, Napoleon complex¹⁰... thanks but no thanks" - "sorry, you were auto-grouped"

So, just remember that communication shares a lot with community ;-) (I know, sound like something from a motivational speech, but hey, it's true...)  

But yes, you are also right that games fail to use natural chances to make grouping more, well, natural.

When I played the first TSW BWE I felt like FC somehow just didn't see the obvious moments to make people group.

I mean, heck, here I am, a complete Templar freshman and I'm send out alone to investigate a completely unknown situation?

Not even something like, hey, here is your handler? Or even better: make me join up as a team - and no, I'm not talking auto-group but rather have an NPC give a speanybody wanna join me exploring that forestech about how teaming up can help you/save your butt.

It's these moments of "okay guys, anybody up for joining me having a look at these woods? Okay, cool, may see you other guys then later in town" where naturally grouping can come. Or should come... if they were there...

Originally posted by XAPGames

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Fly666monkey

Everywhere I go I hear all the same complaints: We don't want Fast Travel, We don't want Auction Houses, We Don't want Dungeon Finders, We want Full Loot PVP, We Don't want Battlegrounds, We want the best stuff in the game to be barred from casuals, etc.

Do any of these people truly understand what it is they are asking for?

Yes we do.

Now I have a question for you.  Are the rest of us allowed to have an opinon that you don't like?

Of course you are. Who am I to say you can't?

But let me ask you: Why do you think this would make a game better? 

 

To the people who like those things, there are reasons:

• Fast travel speeds up pace of gameplay.  Faster pace means content is consumed more quickly.  Once out of content, a player can become bored because there's nothing more to do.  Fast paced games need more content, which given finite development resources means the quality level of content goes down as quantity goes up.
• Auction house eliminates a need to interact with others in order to obtain goods.  Reducing interaction causes more isolation of individual players.  Isolation of players works opposite of building community.
• Dungeon Finders cut down on the need for guilds and friends lists as a primary means to grouping.  This also is opposite of community building.
• Battlegrounds are a mini-game embedded in the world.  They isolate PVP gameplay from the world, making the world less active.  They isolate players from each other making population seem less dense.  This also applies to instanced dungeons.  Some people believe that MMOs work better if they are not lobby-games.
• If there is no reward to being a hardcore player, there is no reason to be a hardcore player.  Hardcore players stay in games for long periods of time which is good for subscriptions.  They also play for long hours which is good for population.

Realistically, the old systems are far from perfect.  Both the old and new systems have problems, but they are different problems.  Preference for either is largely based on the individual.

 

And this post here pretty much answers the OP's very loaded question perfectly.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Cephus404

Now it's been years since I played EvE, but it was probably the best example of a game that dearly needs fast travel.  If you're going anywhere distant, you set your course and go watch TV.  Maybe in a half hour or so, you come back to see if you've finally arrived.

I don't want to watch TV, I want to play a game.  If I wanted to watch TV, I'd turn the computer off.

I have to agree with this, the travel system in EVE is absolutely horrid. At least in other games you get to observe scenery or do stuff while you travel, EVE doesn't really work that way. 30 jumps there, 30 jumps here... I like EVE, but this... >_<

And it would be OK if you could watch TV but autopilot is too dangerous.

So long as you stay out of low-sec, it's completely safe.  Since I hate PvP, I never ventured into low-sec under any circumstances.

So I watched a lot of TV.

One of the big things that always gets me is people crying about "Open Worlds" and then those same people quickly rush through it or skip it and spend most of their time in instances anyway. Unless this is a FFA PvP game we are talking about there is no point in having a PvE centric Open World.

The people who think manual grouping doesn't build community never played FFXI. 

GW2's grouping is shallow and doesn't build anything.  Yea people work together and raise each other, but they also  forget that person's existence the second they turn away.

I'd rather ask why so many devs follow such narrow trends, seeming to imitate each other, rather than making all different sorts of games, for all different sorts of players, with all different sorts of preferences..  I understand there's this idea of mass appeal, but I swear, it's gotten unrealistically narrow, and I highly doubt its anywhere near as limiting as all that.

Originally posted by Goreson

I think we can agree that in just about any MMORPG when you log in at roughly the same time each day you will start seeing "the usual suspects".

If you mean the same players, that is pretty much never the case for me.

But on the other side you may just come across somebody who is in need of help. Just a quick jump in, help him/her kill that mob or even just heal him/her, and a simple communication may follow: "hey, thanks man, yeah, they jumped me out of nowhere." - "no problem dude, I know this spot, happens all the time... there is a better spot a bit to the left, you want me to show you?" - "hey sure, cool, I could really use some XP/gold" - "if you want to we can team up? makes things a bit easier?" - "nice, definitely!"

GW2's soft grouping takes that need completely out of the game: you are at the right spot at the right time and you are in a group. But you will probably never know a single of your "fellow adventurers" in that "group".

I do not see what soft grouping has to do with your example. Like, at all.

You can help a person kill a mob in GW2. In fact, in most other MMO's, you would probably not be welcome. You can heal a person in GW2. None of these are a problem. This has nothing to do wtih manual grouping, because these interactions almost always happen without any grouping. Soft grouping only helps here.

Takes... what "need" out of the game?

You think I know any of the WoW players that are stealing my mobs or questing in the same area? How does GW2 system prevent me from getting to know players in a DE who would otherwise just be hordes of players in WoW camping some mobs?

Again, do pepole actively meet each other in WoW during the leveling phase? No, they do not. WoW has manual grouping. Manual grouping has continually hindered my play with other pepole in WoW. You don't have any evidence, you're comparing to some ethereal situation that doesn't exist and complaining that something didn't happen on your random CBT playthrough. It didn't happen because people don't work like that. It has nothing to do with soft or manual grouping whatsoever.

Frankly, I think I'm old enough to judge if I want to play with somebody or not. So, being auto-group would be my worst nightmare: "ah, shit, played with him, what a douche, played with her, clueless like a headless chicken, played with him, Napoleon complex¹⁰... thanks but no thanks" - "sorry, you were auto-grouped"

So basically you want to live in a bubble where other players do not affect anything... that's not my perception of an MMO. On the contrary, I consider manual grouping highly gamey and persistence-breaking, since manual grouping systems basically generate mini-instances for evrey group or single player.

So you basically only want people in your special, wuaranteed, premediated way where you can track who exists or doesn't exist in your tiny little world. Otherwise, you don't care about community at all, or the world, how dare someone attack the same worm as you and invade on your precious quest that isn't personalized anymore.

 

Originally posted by Cephus404

So long as you stay out of low-sec, it's completely safe.  Since I hate PvP, I never ventured into low-sec under any circumstances.

So I watched a lot of TV.

Someone never carried anything expensive and been in a war.

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Originally posted by Goreson

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Originally posted by Fly666monkey No, I'm not trolling, nor am I lumping anyone into a certian crowd. It's just that I hear these complaints ALL. THE. TIME. I just want to hear the vocal minority back up their arguments instead of just spewing the same old "every gamer these days is a spoon fed ADD-addled brat" argument that only serves to make them look elitist.

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I'm sorry but it is true!

People were complaing that in SWTOR nobody's on the servers.

Yes, of course, not 10K or even 5K, maybe not even 1K.

The averaged average according to Scorpienne was at 350 for low pop servers.

Now, let's be fancy: 50/50 split on Rep vs. Imp: so that's 175 to each side.

Ever been in a crowd of 175 people? It is a lot!

And people keep saying that they can't find anybody to group with?

Of course, people may not be on your planet, they may not be of your level, etc. but seriously, running around on planets with less than 8 people I kept running into those same guys at hubs. And yes, there was no problem for us just teaming up for this quest or that one.

And yes, beyond that we may also have teamed up on a more regular base after a while...

fact is that most gamers these days lack social skills!

I mean when was the last time that you were at a MMO wedding or even just a normal ingame party?

Ask the "spoon fed ADD-addled brats" to join something like than and you can already imagine their faces going blank (not to mention their brains): do we get gear from that? Will there be PvP? Is the environment set up for complete interaction? etc.

It is like this cliche where kids rather than playing a boardgame or telling stories around the campfire they rather just pull out their mobiles and PSP to have fun in their own little world.

And yes, this goes as far as 2 friends sitting right next to each other on a bus rather texting each other than speaking to one another.

So, forgive me for not holding today's gamers in high regards but, well, they are not really worth it! 

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I ran into a couple of those 'eight" guys too. They would race to get to the mobs before me, or skip ahead to the chest, or try to tag that node or door or console before me every time. IF I was killing the mobs they were taking the easy road while I did the work.

A higher percentage of gamers these days are selfish, instant gratification junkies; more so than ever before.

I would rather not group with these people. They don't deserve it.