Originally posted by Blackbrrd

Originally posted by Derpybird

.... "What am I getting for my subscription fee other than access to a character?"

...

Which MMOs appear to be using the funds for this? How many games go for cycles of 6-9 months with no new content released? I think Rift is the only game that has large, frequent and decent content pushed out.

.....

I don't know about any P2P MMO that doesn't regularily add new content or features. Do you know any that don't?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "regularly" but one example would be Dragon Soul, the last content patch released in WoW at the end of November 2011.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
There's no such thing as free to play.

Moat if these "free" games cost more money than sub games.

Gw1 being the exception, but that's not a proper mmo.

They are if you want it to be.

For me it's a combination of two things. First, the cash shop on top of a subscription fee. It just not sit well with me. Yes, I know that almost all subscription MMOs have some sort of a cash shop but they didn't launch with them. Most added cash shops years later when subscription numbers began to really dwindle. Some even began offering a F2P model when they introduced their cash shop.

I can deal with a uninvasive cash shop in a B2P game or even a slightly invasive cash shop in a F2P game, as long as I can mostly avoid it, but to launch a P2P game with a cash shop is a bit much. On top of that, I'm still dubious over exactly what is going to be in the cash shop. Funcom is apparently projecting a 35% increase in revenue per customer, due to the cash shop and I cannot see just cosmetics bringing in that much money.

Second issue is Guild Wars 2. Whether you like the game or not, you cannot deny the fact that GW2 offers a AAA MMO experience without a subscription fee. With GW2 you basically get a lifetime subscription for $59.99, something that in TSW costs $199, if I remember correctly. You simply cannot beat this type of value.

Originally posted by heartless

For me it's a combination of two things. First, the cash shop on top of a subscription fee. It just not sit well with me. Yes, I know that almost all subscription MMOs have some sort of a cash shop but they didn't launch with them. Most added cash shops years later when subscription numbers began to really dwindle. Some even began offering a F2P model when they introduced their cash shop.

I can deal with a uninvasive cash shop in a B2P game or even a slightly invasive cash shop in a F2P game, as long as I can mostly avoid it, but to launch a P2P game with a cash shop is a bit much. On top of that, I'm still dubious over exactly what is going to be in the cash shop. Funcom is apparently projecting a 35% increase in revenue per customer, due to the cash shop and I cannot see just cosmetics bringing in that much money.

Second issue is Guild Wars 2. Whether you like the game or not, you cannot deny the fact that GW2 offers a AAA MMO experience without a subscription fee. With GW2 you basically get a lifetime subscription for $59.99, something that in TSW costs $199, if I remember correctly. You simply cannot beat this type of value.

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

 

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

 

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

If I remember correctly, the original sub fees were around $10. They went up to $15 around the time WoW was released, although I don't remember if WoW was the first to raise them to $15 or another game.

Actually, bandwith and server hardware have become significantly cheaper, to a point where $15 per month per customer is a ripoff. Most companies don't even list server and bandwith costs on their financial reports anymore because the cost percentage is incredibly tiny.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

 

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

 

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

If I remember correctly, the original sub fees were around $10. They went up to $15 around the time WoW was released, although I don't remember if WoW was the first to raise them to $15 or another game.

Actually, bandwith and server hardware have become significantly cheaper, to a point where $15 per month per customer is a ripoff. Most companies don't even list server and bandwith costs on their financial reports anymore because the cost percentage is incredibly tiny.

Bandwidth and hardware costs have never been a significant cost factor for MMO's. The largest cost component is salaries for staff. The development time for a AAA MMO is usually 3-5 years, during which time several hundred people have to be paid every month. And a fair number have to still be paid after launch as well, because there needs to be ongoing support, CS and further development.

I certainly doubt that any investor would loan a MMO developer $10M-$20M annually for 3-5 years without charging interest on the loan. That interest is most likely not at prime, given the high risk involved in funding MMO's.

Perhaps nobody in the MMO industry has received any salary increases since 2004 ? That may explain why everyone is complaining about the quality of current MMO's...

Lastly, investors in any company expect increasing annual dividends, otherwise they take their money elsewhere so that they can earn better returns. Any company that earned $50M in 2004 and is STILL earning 50M in 2012 is a dead duck, because in real terms they are not even keeping pace with inflation.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

 

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

 

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

If I remember correctly, the original sub fees were around $10. They went up to $15 around the time WoW was released, although I don't remember if WoW was the first to raise them to $15 or another game.

Actually, bandwith and server hardware have become significantly cheaper, to a point where $15 per month per customer is a ripoff. Most companies don't even list server and bandwith costs on their financial reports anymore because the cost percentage is incredibly tiny.

Bandwidth and hardware costs have never been a significant cost factor for MMO's. The largest cost component is salaries for staff. The development time for a AAA MMO is usually 3-5 years, during which time several hundred people have to be paid every month. And a fair number have to still be paid after launch as well, because there needs to be ongoing support, CS and further development.

 

I certainly doubt that any investor would loan a MMO developer $10M-$20M annually for 3-5 years without charging interest on the loan. That interest is most likely not at prime, given the high risk involved in funding MMO's.

 

Perhaps nobody in the MMO industry has received any salary increases since 2004 ? That may explain why everyone is complaining about the quality of current MMO's...

 

Lastly, investors in any company expect increasing annual dividends, otherwise they take their money elsewhere so that they can earn better returns. Any company that earned $50M in 2004 and is STILL earning 50M in 2012 is a dead duck, because in real terms they are not even keeping pace with inflation.

Yet somehow ArenaNet has managed it with GW1 and soon GW2.

Whether you prefer one or the other it doesn't matter, the crowd that are on the fence about trying TSW will find it hard to overlook this discrepency ( monthly sub)  in light of the quality and extent of gameplay available in GW2 -  a game releasing side by side.

And having said this I don't think many people if any believe TSW is a better game than GW2.  ( imo gw2 is game of the year )

( swtor doesn't deserve a sub but thats a diff story )

I myself am loving GW2, and although TSW is refreshingly different and thats very good, Its not my cup of tea.

Originally posted by madjonNZ

Whether you prefer one or the other it doesn't matter, the crowd that are on the fence about trying TSW will find it hard to overlook this discrepency ( monthly sub)  in light of the quality and extent of gameplay available in GW2 -  a game releasing side by side.

And having said this I don't think many people if any believe TSW is a better game than GW2.  ( imo gw2 is game of the year )

( swtor doesn't deserve a sub but thats a diff story )

 

I myself am loving GW2, and although TSW is refreshingly different and thats very good, Its not my cup of tea.

You are assumign all of us play only one MMO at a time. I have pre orderd both GW2 and TSW and i will play both. I make decent amount of money and i can afford to keep a sub going while play GW2 casualy when i have time.

I have never ever in my life played one MMO for more than 2 months regularly, no matter how amazing it is.

Also who cares if TSW is better or GW2 is better? both are completely different games, made keeping two very different player base in mind.

Its funny how they ephasize that cash shop will have only cosmetics. In a game with no levels and no visible armor, cosmetics will play biggest role..

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

 

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

 

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

If I remember correctly, the original sub fees were around $10. They went up to $15 around the time WoW was released, although I don't remember if WoW was the first to raise them to $15 or another game.

Actually, bandwith and server hardware have become significantly cheaper, to a point where $15 per month per customer is a ripoff. Most companies don't even list server and bandwith costs on their financial reports anymore because the cost percentage is incredibly tiny.

Bandwidth and hardware costs have never been a significant cost factor for MMO's. The largest cost component is salaries for staff. The development time for a AAA MMO is usually 3-5 years, during which time several hundred people have to be paid every month. And a fair number have to still be paid after launch as well, because there needs to be ongoing support, CS and further development.

 

I certainly doubt that any investor would loan a MMO developer $10M-$20M annually for 3-5 years without charging interest on the loan. That interest is most likely not at prime, given the high risk involved in funding MMO's.

 

Perhaps nobody in the MMO industry has received any salary increases since 2004 ? That may explain why everyone is complaining about the quality of current MMO's...

 

Lastly, investors in any company expect increasing annual dividends, otherwise they take their money elsewhere so that they can earn better returns. Any company that earned $50M in 2004 and is STILL earning 50M in 2012 is a dead duck, because in real terms they are not even keeping pace with inflation.

Yet somehow ArenaNet has managed it with GW1 and soon GW2.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

 

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

 

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

If I remember correctly, the original sub fees were around $10. They went up to $15 around the time WoW was released, although I don't remember if WoW was the first to raise them to $15 or another game.

Actually, bandwith and server hardware have become significantly cheaper, to a point where $15 per month per customer is a ripoff. Most companies don't even list server and bandwith costs on their financial reports anymore because the cost percentage is incredibly tiny.

Bandwidth and hardware costs have never been a significant cost factor for MMO's. The largest cost component is salaries for staff. The development time for a AAA MMO is usually 3-5 years, during which time several hundred people have to be paid every month. And a fair number have to still be paid after launch as well, because there needs to be ongoing support, CS and further development.

 

I certainly doubt that any investor would loan a MMO developer $10M-$20M annually for 3-5 years without charging interest on the loan. That interest is most likely not at prime, given the high risk involved in funding MMO's.

 

Perhaps nobody in the MMO industry has received any salary increases since 2004 ? That may explain why everyone is complaining about the quality of current MMO's...

 

Lastly, investors in any company expect increasing annual dividends, otherwise they take their money elsewhere so that they can earn better returns. Any company that earned $50M in 2004 and is STILL earning 50M in 2012 is a dead duck, because in real terms they are not even keeping pace with inflation.

Yet somehow ArenaNet has managed it with GW1 and soon GW2.

If you honestly believe that ANet are planning on making the same profit that they made in 2005 with GW1 then there is no further discussion neccessary.

the cash shop has been said to only be cosmetic so wtf do people complain about it in a sub game if all your doing is buying shit to make u look different? you dont have to buy anything from it so who cares?

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

 

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

 

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

If I remember correctly, the original sub fees were around $10. They went up to $15 around the time WoW was released, although I don't remember if WoW was the first to raise them to $15 or another game.

Actually, bandwith and server hardware have become significantly cheaper, to a point where $15 per month per customer is a ripoff. Most companies don't even list server and bandwith costs on their financial reports anymore because the cost percentage is incredibly tiny.

Bandwidth and hardware costs have never been a significant cost factor for MMO's. The largest cost component is salaries for staff. The development time for a AAA MMO is usually 3-5 years, during which time several hundred people have to be paid every month. And a fair number have to still be paid after launch as well, because there needs to be ongoing support, CS and further development.

 

I certainly doubt that any investor would loan a MMO developer $10M-$20M annually for 3-5 years without charging interest on the loan. That interest is most likely not at prime, given the high risk involved in funding MMO's.

 

Perhaps nobody in the MMO industry has received any salary increases since 2004 ? That may explain why everyone is complaining about the quality of current MMO's...

 

Lastly, investors in any company expect increasing annual dividends, otherwise they take their money elsewhere so that they can earn better returns. Any company that earned $50M in 2004 and is STILL earning 50M in 2012 is a dead duck, because in real terms they are not even keeping pace with inflation.

Yet somehow ArenaNet has managed it with GW1 and soon GW2.

 

Well, they financed things with the cash shop and expansions, after GW went basically into maintenance mode, the steady trickle of cash shop revenues and game sales (esp when it became clear that GW would be tied to GW2, there were additional sales) was enough to cover the costs. If you don't have to devote significant manpower and resources to follow up expansions, but only to have to keep things running and the occasional update, costs will be pretty low.

GW did not launch with a cash shop. The cash shop came some time after the Factions campaign launched. In other words, ANet has managed to not only maintain the game without the cash shop but also managed to fund the development of the free Surrow's Furnance update but the Factions campaign as well.

As far as expansions go, games that charge subscription fees usually charge for expansions also.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

Sorry but your assumptions are dead wrong.

Price of bandwidth: Gone down considerably during the last 10 years.

Cost of running servers (HW/housing/$ pr. cycle etc.): Dropped to a fraction of what it was 10 years ago.

The amount of decent programmers have increased: Guess what = Lower cost/pay...

Dev tools have improved a lot = Lower costs.

It may sound unbelievable but advertising and the greed amongst the suits are the only two things that have really increased during that period. 

i had made a pre order on TSW, and i didnt know that it would have a cash shop with a sub.

i dont mind paying a sub for a game, but a sub with cash shop is mostly like pay to win and mostly unfair in many segments. i really liked TSW because how it was made and it looked a bit fresh with it story and its theme, but with a cash shop no thanks, i cancelled my pre order.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by jdnyc

It's no doubt that of recent years we've dealt with F2P models and people wanting F2P models.  Money seems to be a chief motivating factor in this.  People don't want to spend money on a game and then sub for it.  They would rather buy a game and rely on the next guy that can afford it, spend the money in cash shops to continue funding a game.

Many don't have a lot of extra money to spend right now.  Could this be a motivating factor to why so many people want to play TSW, but don't want to pay the sub?  They hope it goes F2P, so they'll get a chance to play themselves?  Or is this really about GW2?

The "difficult economic conditions" may be a factor as to why 10% of people want the F2P model, but 90% of those that want it simply don't want to pay a single penny to play a MMO.

 

Most people insisting on the F2P model get more satisfaction from a pint and a pizza than they get from playing a sub-based MMO for a month. Must be, because they'd rather spend the MMO sub on something else, given the chance. And besides, why pay for something if you can get it for free ?

 

I honestly can't remember what the sub fees for AAA MMO's were 9-10 years ago (EQ, SWG, AO), but I'm willing to bet it was pretty much the same as it is now. No company has dared to raise sub fees beyond the "industry standard", because that would cause a massive backlash. But costs have risen steadily over the last decade, so naturally some way had to be found to increase revenue. Hence the pervasive DLC and Cash Shop phenomenon. We gamers brought it upon ourselves.

If I remember correctly, the original sub fees were around $10. They went up to $15 around the time WoW was released, although I don't remember if WoW was the first to raise them to $15 or another game.

Actually, bandwith and server hardware have become significantly cheaper, to a point where $15 per month per customer is a ripoff. Most companies don't even list server and bandwith costs on their financial reports anymore because the cost percentage is incredibly tiny.

Bandwidth and hardware costs have never been a significant cost factor for MMO's. The largest cost component is salaries for staff. The development time for a AAA MMO is usually 3-5 years, during which time several hundred people have to be paid every month. And a fair number have to still be paid after launch as well, because there needs to be ongoing support, CS and further development.

 

I certainly doubt that any investor would loan a MMO developer $10M-$20M annually for 3-5 years without charging interest on the loan. That interest is most likely not at prime, given the high risk involved in funding MMO's.

 

Perhaps nobody in the MMO industry has received any salary increases since 2004 ? That may explain why everyone is complaining about the quality of current MMO's...

 

Lastly, investors in any company expect increasing annual dividends, otherwise they take their money elsewhere so that they can earn better returns. Any company that earned $50M in 2004 and is STILL earning 50M in 2012 is a dead duck, because in real terms they are not even keeping pace with inflation.

Yet somehow ArenaNet has managed it with GW1 and soon GW2.

If you honestly believe that ANet are planning on making the same profit that they made in 2005 with GW1 then there is no further discussion neccessary.

 

GW2 will not have a monthly fee.

Will tell you what I think.

Bad economy do have impact. That's kinda obvious.

Still that's not what is more important for me personally (even though crisis has hit my income as well).

What's bad in TSW is not sub. It is sub AND cash shop. Sorry, but not acceptable for me.

Yes I know WoW also has it.   I don't care.

=====================

More general.  

I am person who does not play mmorpg's constantly - I do have breaks between them.  Now I have longest one in few years.

For me P2P is best thing for me.

 Well box fee + expansion & DLC's would be better - but there is no game like that. GW1 was not mmorpg and GW2 does have sizeable cash shop made vith very diffrent philosophy than GW1 shop. . I will still try GW2, to check this model out - but that's not what I would like.  Real thing would be just box fee + expansions / DLC's and NO CASH SHOP at all.

------------------------

Since that is not possible - after all companies do more and more mmos / online games to have ON-GOING payment systems via Cash Shops (or RMAH like in D3).

If they would want to sell only box + expansions or DLC's then they would do single player or non-mmo multiplayer game and not bother with higher costs & development time of an mmo.

Still since I don't hop between mmorpg's and I carefully choose what to play and want to play long-term realistically pure P2P is best for me.

Sub option in freemium games is not the same, not even close.

Sub + CS business model is like in freemium games. Just worse.

Anyway most of modern mmorpg's are not worth a sub.

Cause they are so awful?

No.

Cause they don't feel like mmorpg in first place.

Give me unique experience - an virtual world, separate 'microcosmos', separate economy, society, etc  and I will pay a sub.

Give me single player heavy story based adventure game or / and co-op in instances - and I will say FU. 

Even if Swtor / WoW is like that nowadays.

That's not an mmorpg.

I budget 50 bucks a month for video games. Its one of my only hobbies and its dirt cheap next to other activities.