Originally posted by GreenHell

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by raistlinm

The question for me though is it really true that housing was ever a major priority for mmmorpg's?

Has the clamouring for it from players ever been a truly major factor?  The financial impact of not including housing?

Has any game that started without housing and done poorly "saved" itself by adding housing?

How many of those questions are answered (honestly) with "no", even here on the SandboxForum?

I don't think you make or break a game depending on housing. It is just an extra feature that some people enjoy and those that do not enjoy it don't have to deal with it. I have never seen anything negative as far as not using housing in a game that has it except for storage space.

Why is having that choice in a game a bad thing?

Didn't say it was, particularly because Devs just don't think (entirely/only) in terms of costs/benefits.

Every game should have dozens of sub-systems for player-created content, imo.

But realistically? Expecting every game to choose the same features will always lead to disappointment.  We spend an extraordinary amount of time complaining when they do that, on this site.

Housing needs to be designed as the social hub. Anything less, and it's not a worthwhile part of otherwise murderhobo gameplay.

I also see housing as an extra feature that gives the game more deepth. Why should most themepark endgame only be Dungeons/raids or Battlegrounds? Making gear progression the only thing to go after! No i want housing to be another thing worth while to go after. It don´t have to be cheap or easy to come by. It´s cool to have some "goodies" to farm for  :)

just my 2 cent...

IMO housing is a sandbox feature for sandbox games.

I fail to see the value of an instanced house in a game where items don't even exist unless they're in a player's bag or bank. Anyone who played UO and got into the housing would know that it wasnt just a sprite but your digital home. This would be doubly so for crafters, shopowners, etc. Not even going to discuss the decoration nuts and rares hoarders.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

 It's not that I spend a lot of time in the house doing nothing, but that I spend a huge amount of time everywhere else in the game to get the odd rewards to put in my house.  It is a showcase of my achievements and filled with mementos of my adventures. 

This, to me, is a great point. Thinking back to the oft-mentioned SWG, I can recall heading out to other vendors for various rug schematics and paintings, learning to tame creatures to display in my house, chasing down random neat looking drops, chasing down high quality resources for crafting, etc, etc.

So, if we were to base a metric off of the percentage of my time that was spent actually in my house, it might look like housing didn't really matter to me most the time. That metric wouldn't really take in to account the veriety of content I went out and explored as a result of my house providing motivation.

And while there was personal enjoyment in the "doll house" activity of setting it all up and getting things to look the way I wanted, the idea that the house was also a showcase of my accomplishments is another good point.  I could shift+click an achievement in WoW to show it off or I could invite someone into my house to view my 'trophies'. Each has its place for their respective games, but given the choice, I think the housing display is more immersive and enjoyable.

As someone else had stated, this was what I expected from the MMO genere. Persistent worlds that players had a stake in. Housing and cities provided that in the form of world building (or detroying in the case of city-v-city pvp :) ). For a while, I got what I expected, but I think the idea of that sort of game, has largely passed for the time being. There are still games with housing out there so there are places for those of us interested. That is, unless we are actually saying "I want a popular MMO with housing" ;) (tongue-in-cheek for anyone reading that too seriously. I know there are other factors to consider)

Originally posted by Icewhite

Didn't say it was, particularly because Devs just don't think (entirely/only) in terms of costs/benefits.

Every game should have dozens of sub-systems for player-created content, imo.

But realistically? Expecting every game to choose the same features will always lead to disappointment.  We spend an extraordinary amount of time complaining when they do that, on this site.

I wouldn't want every game to have the same exact housing. I would never want SWG style housing in WoW. i do think WoW could benefit from something like a guild hall though. A place to keep your boss kill trophies, portals inside for the major cities, the guild vendor..things like that. Now there is a form of housing that is not in anyway intrusive to players who do not want to deal with it and differs greatly from SWG housing. I just think every game should have some kind of building to show off your accomplishments. It doesnt have to be individual housing at all and if you want to keep everyone in the major cities just disable the ability to que from there.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by raistlinm

The question for me though is it really true that housing was ever a major priority for mmmorpg's?

Has the clamouring for it from players ever been a truly major factor?  The financial impact of not including housing?

Has any game that started without housing and done poorly "saved" itself by adding housing?

How many of those questions are answered (honestly) with "no", even here on the SandboxForum?

No game will save by house because not many titles push a sandbox housing in the first place.  It's not really something you can just slap on effectively.  It has to be designed from the ground up.

We don't expect all players to want sandbox or player housing.  Just like there are a lot of players who are tired of themeparks but that's largely all we get outside of indie games.  The Themepark formula is so consistant and down pact that it's almost like playing the same game over and over with different skins and a couple new features.  Imagine if single player games had the same feel?  It's like WoW is GTA and every other MMORPG is Saints Row, Red Dead Redemption or LA Noire.  

You basically have vast majority WoW like theme parks different words and skins, City of Hero type super hero games(I can almost lump Secret World into this as it has the same Funcom CoH's feel), Asian level grinders and WoW clones, low budget indie games and dated origins MMORPGS.   

Originally posted by Saerain

Housing needs to be designed as the social hub. Anything less, and it's not a worthwhile part of otherwise murderhobo gameplay.

 

Very good point. The housing implementations that failed were ones that drew people away from the social hub rather than amplify the hub or create hubs themselves.

'murderhobo'... I'm going to start using that term. :)

I miss the DAoC housing. Having my own forge and merchant to sell my wares and leftovers was great. Also house made for a great meeting place. My friends and I all bought homes next to each other and would just hang out at our homes at the end of the night and chat for a bit.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Saerain

Housing needs to be designed as the social hub. Anything less, and it's not a worthwhile part of otherwise murderhobo gameplay.

 

Very good point. The housing implementations that failed were ones that drew people away from the social hub rather than amplify the hub or create hubs themselves.

 

'murderhobo'... I'm going to start using that term. :)

"Homicide Transient" would be more PC

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Saerain

Housing needs to be designed as the social hub. Anything less, and it's not a worthwhile part of otherwise murderhobo gameplay.

Very good point. The housing implementations that failed were ones that drew people away from the social hub rather than amplify the hub or create hubs themselves.

'murderhobo'... I'm going to start using that term. :)

"Homicide Transient" would be more PC

Yeah, open world housing in SWG and UO ruined the "alive and prosperous" feeling of the NPC cities.

Also creates urban sprawl/blight as most of the time the player cities/towns are ghost towns unless there is an event going on (player run.)

Kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Instanced housing just isn't the same...

My idea has been and will always be to do open world housing more like the Fable sRPG's.

All the houses / shops in NPC towns (maybe not all but most) can be bought and customized/upgraded by players.

Given WoW as an example (though a poor one) how cool would it be to buy a house in Ogrimar or Stormwind?

Through a combination of price tag and maintenance/upkeep fees, hundreds if not thousands of available houses for people to buy and invest in, helps keep social hubs as social hubs, helps breathe life into cities and towns, but the biggest hurdle is level ranges in zones.

Who would want to buy a house in a smaller town in a lower level range as a high level player?

It'd work best in a level-less game where people would be invested in the town/city they purchase a home in and make that area their base of operations for their crafting/trade and adventuring.

Much more of a sandbox idea.

But you could also include a limited number of plots of lands out in the wilds players could purchase and turn into villages/towns/cities.

But NPC's would have to also be able to "move in" and "buy property" to increase the size/economy of the player build town/city.

Be a real sim then.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Housing is poorly named, unfortunately, so it's understandable that one going by that name would wonder the value of it.

Player-owned structures is a much more applicable description of the feature. Like you, no one really wants to log into a game and go sit in a house. That's kinda silly and pointless. What many who have interest in player owned structures do want is to build in the game world, impact the game world, and create something with more functionality than just a room to store furniture that you win from completing quests.

From MUDs to the early days of MMOs, housing was never really about housing. :)

 

The problem is, housing was really about one of two things:

1.  A place to set up a merchant so you could whore your crap 24/7.

2.  A place to stage your own personal dickwaving contest and show off.

You've either got "give me money" or "look at me!"

Neither of those interest me in the least.

What I see is that housing doesn't add to the game play so it adds nothing to the game but wasted coding. Maybe devs also see that wasted coding is wasted money that can go to important features.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Saerain

Housing needs to be designed as the social hub. Anything less, and it's not a worthwhile part of otherwise murderhobo gameplay.

Very good point. The housing implementations that failed were ones that drew people away from the social hub rather than amplify the hub or create hubs themselves.

'murderhobo'... I'm going to start using that term. :)

"Homicide Transient" would be more PC

Yeah, open world housing in SWG and UO ruined the "alive and prosperous" feeling of the NPC cities.

Also creates urban sprawl/blight as most of the time the player cities/towns are ghost towns unless there is an event going on (player run.)

Kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

Instanced housing just isn't the same...

My idea has been and will always be to do open world housing more like the Fable sRPG's.

All the houses / shops in NPC towns (maybe not all but most) can be bought and customized/upgraded by players.

Given WoW as an example (though a poor one) how cool would it be to buy a house in Ogrimar or Stormwind?

Through a combination of price tag and maintenance/upkeep fees, hundreds if not thousands of available houses for people to buy and invest in, helps keep social hubs as social hubs, helps breathe life into cities and towns, but the biggest hurdle is level ranges in zones.

Who would want to buy a house in a smaller town in a lower level range as a high level player?

It'd work best in a level-less game where people would be invested in the town/city they purchase a home in and make that area their base of operations for their crafting/trade and adventuring.

Much more of a sandbox idea.

But you could also include a limited number of plots of lands out in the wilds players could purchase and turn into villages/towns/cities.

But NPC's would have to also be able to "move in" and "buy property" to increase the size/economy of the player build town/city.

Be a real sim then.

You often speak truths without the rose tinted glasses on and thanks for that.  While SWG had an extremely robust housing system the complaints of the decayed buildings all over the place started almost as soon as the option to place these structures began.

As stated earlier I consider mysef to be an extreme roleplayer so any feature that allows me to immerse myself more so in the game world is a welcome one for me but after having seen how well wow did without it and seeing all the crap started in SWG because of housing I don't blame any dev house that uses the massive amounts of resources needed to pull off a system like this on something else.

One example I can use is TOR, while lots of folks clamoring for housing finds the ship to be a poor excuse for housing I'm fine with it if only they add the ability to display trophies etc..

The only time player housing has been any good in in games like UO, SWG, MO is trying.. Dont get me wrong there was issues like mentioned but they could just put a decay rate on the house so after a certain amount of days with no activity it becomes available for anyone to take.. if its then idle for a fruther 30 days it falls down..

I dont see the point of them in your average themepark game as they dont really have any use at all..

So I have no issues with them no being in Themepark MMOS and I dont think they where ever a priority.

Player housing in a Sandbox game is a must tho :) just done proper :)

Player Housing is the ONLY thing that keeps me subscribing to Ultima Online after all these years. I prob won't ever give up my keep until the servers shut down lol. I log in from time to time when there's something new I can get for my house or my vet rewards are up. I just love the customizations with the housing and decorating.

Originally posted by Thorbrand

What I see is that housing doesn't add to the game play so it adds nothing to the game but wasted coding. Maybe devs also see that wasted coding is wasted money that can go to important features.

It doesnt add anything to the gameplay for YOU. That doesnt mean it doesnt add to the gameplay for others.

Anything that adds enjoyment for people playing the game is not wasted coding.

Housing is an important feature for some. Just because YOU dont think so doesnt make it so.

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Thorbrand

What I see is that housing doesn't add to the game play so it adds nothing to the game but wasted coding. Maybe devs also see that wasted coding is wasted money that can go to important features.

It doesnt add anything to the gameplay for YOU. That doesnt mean it doesnt add to the gameplay for others.

Anything that adds enjoyment for people playing the game is not wasted coding.

Housing is an important feature for some. Just because YOU dont think so doesnt make it so.

Lol I just found myself correcting someone in much the same manner as you here the problem though is one has to consider how many people is this functionality essential too?  And honestly how many of these same people aren't going to use housing to get a foothold in the game world and then spend much of the rest of that time complaining about other non sandbox features until they totally bork the game.

as stated i love player housing but it is not an essential function to anyone but the niche sandbox crowd and the best thing a dev can do by catering to them is avoid getting roasted on boards like this one (atleast until launch).

The end result is often I would think the resources needed to make a robust and fun system based on this isn't justified by the numbers.  It's like spending five grand to send one kid on a trip to DC while your other four kids starve it's kind of a no brainer.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Because it has never been a priority in any MMO after UO, and in UO it ruined the landscape.

EQ2,LOTRO and Vanguard all have great housing and always get updates with new items,especially EQ2 and LOTRO.Since UO we have also had SWG with great housing.Priority is the wrong word because i new MMO or dev creating a new MMO will always make sure things are working properly,that's to be expected.

Housing usually comes as an expansion if it's going to be in but still get's loads of attenttiononce it's in.

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by Thorbrand

What I see is that housing doesn't add to the game play so it adds nothing to the game but wasted coding. Maybe devs also see that wasted coding is wasted money that can go to important features.

It doesnt add anything to the gameplay for YOU. That doesnt mean it doesnt add to the gameplay for others.

Anything that adds enjoyment for people playing the game is not wasted coding.

Housing is an important feature for some. Just because YOU dont think so doesnt make it so.

I agree,i don't like it so i don't expect anyone else to like it lol.